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P4P rules VCDL AGAIN this Year!

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
And while you would hope that the permit holders would show up the next year to fight to remove the disparity, they have no real motivation to do so.
A real "wish in one hand" example if I ever saw one.

You are essentially repeating what I stated above speaking about "special" tax breaks for certain classes of people.

Once they have what they want (or special considerations/concessions) there is absolutely no motivation for them to change the law to benefit others. Well noted.
 

jmelvin

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,195
Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
A real "wish in one hand" example if I ever saw one.

You are essentially repeating what I stated above speaking about "special" tax breaks for certain classes of people.

Once they have what they want (or special considerations/concessions) there is absolutely no motivation for them to change the law to benefit others. Well noted.

Bingo! If you're at bat swing for the fences. If you're dredging up support go as broad as you can to include as much as you can, because once some parties have what they want they will never again come to the table.
 

45acpForMe

Newbie
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
Bingo! If you're at bat swing for the fences. If you're dredging up support go as broad as you can to include as much as you can, because once some parties have what they want they will never again come to the table.

Well since you brought in a baseball analogy, games aren't usually won with home runs. They help and can win big but usually base hits keep the players moving around the bases to get into position to score.

I understand the thinking that if we cut out special priviledges for some group that they are satisfied with the status quo and won't fight for others. I would like to think that is a small percentage of gun owners. When I started buying guns and ran into all the BS I was enraged and wanted to repeal all the dumb laws.

I would rather win games that strike out like "Casey"! You all have a point but it is only one point, not the all encompassing truth.

casey.jpg
 

Uber_Olafsun

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
583
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, United States
I just see every bill for permits is trying to get us to shut up or at least quiet the voices. If they start to have some people get what they want and not the whole constitutional carry they will never pass it. The funny thing is we are on an open carry site arguing about permits when we should be focused on getting all our rights back and not just what "common sense" rights they think we deserve.
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
I just see every bill for permits is trying to get us to shut up or at least quiet the voices. If they start to have some people get what they want and not the whole constitutional carry they will never pass it. The funny thing is we are on an open carry site arguing about permits when we should be focused on getting all our rights back and not just what "common sense" rights they think we deserve.

Amen, again I say amen!

This is a site about fully restoring our right to bear arms. Peter is right, P4P is hemlock!
 

VCDL President

Centurion
Joined
Jun 22, 2006
Messages
600
Location
Midlothian, Virginia, USA
Not so fast

The reason that the country is now in the mode to be arguing about Constitutional Carry is because of the success of concealed carry! That empowered 6 MILLION Americans and counting to carry a gun regularly back when gun rights were mostly in the closet. It was a group of people we could point at and say, "See - gun owners can carry guns in public and nothing bad happens - but a lot of good does."

That in turn helped weaken the support for gun control laws and made full preemption possible in states like VA. Concealed carriers banned together to protect and expand gun rights. Open carry as a movement came along around 10 years ago and started become a force...

We have bootstrapped ourselves to this point - and concealed carry got us here (and the Internet to spread the truth about guns). The idea that CHP holders wouldn't back a Constitutional carry is simply not accurate - AZ and AK adapted Constitutional Carry and they had those dreaded CHPs in place when that happened. While we work for Constitutional Carry, we need to keep improving gun laws, be it for concealed carry holders, open carriers, or both.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
The reason that the country is now in the mode to be arguing about Constitutional Carry is because of the success of concealed carry! That empowered 6 MILLION Americans and counting to carry a gun regularly back when gun rights were mostly in the closet. It was a group of people we could point at and say, "See - gun owners can carry guns in public and nothing bad happens - but a lot of good does."

That in turn helped weaken the support for gun control laws and made full preemption possible in states like VA. Concealed carriers banned together to protect and expand gun rights. Open carry as a movement came along around 10 years ago and started become a force...

We have bootstrapped ourselves to this point - and concealed carry got us here (and the Internet to spread the truth about guns). The idea that CHP holders wouldn't back a Constitutional carry is simply not accurate - AZ and AK adapted Constitutional Carry and they had those dreaded CHPs in place when that happened. While we work for Constitutional Carry, we need to keep improving gun laws, be it for concealed carry holders, open carriers, or both.

Now wait a minute Philip.
You weren't here then but I can promise you, open carry didn't start here ten years ago.
I was open carrying in the 60's and the old folks were opening carrying 40 years before that and their ancestors before that.

What happened ten years ago was that City people, most up north, discovered what the rest of Rural Virginia knew all along. That open carry was legal.

When I was a teenager, I owned a Dan Wesson just like a lot of people then. I only had one handgun but I had a 6' barrel for the mountains, a 4" barrel for those trips to Harrisonburg, Satunton or Waynesbor and a 2" barrel for those special moments.

Please don't confuse the urbanites and burbinites coming out of the closet, with all of Virginia.

Granted, full preemption was a major Coup for all Virginians because it removed many of the local laws we just ignored before...but we did ignore them.

Shall issue was again a milestone for those that either needed or wanted a CHP. But Chippers are not a majority of gun owners in this state, far, far from it.

Now what's going on in the rest of the country may be different. I don't live there...don't have a dog in that fight and don't keep up with each state . I have enough to do to keep up with what's going on in Va. What I can tell you about other states is that many of them sat on their hands while their legislatures passed permit laws that gradually made it more difficult to both own and carry a gun.
 
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Uber_Olafsun

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
583
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, United States
I just look at the rights that have been lost and won back in my 36 years on the planet. I grew up in Iowa and California. In Iowa as a kid we all had bb guns and hunters had rifles in the truck. Even some parts of California did the same. Look at Iowa fighting to get their rights back and winning. California is just waiting for the ocean to take it back it seems. I have nothing against concealed or open carry but if you have it hiding it doesn't make as much of a political statement which is what some are trying to do. Now I am one of those who open carry close enough to the gates of Mordor (I mean dc and md) to bike to them if I wanted. I know of a lot more of us city folk who are fed up with having to beg for scraps on what they want to permit. The school felon part should not even be an issue. It is just more of the they come up with more attempts at restrictions and we fight back. Think of lining up in football. You can both push as hard as you want but you may not go anywhere.
 

VCDL President

Centurion
Joined
Jun 22, 2006
Messages
600
Location
Midlothian, Virginia, USA
Now wait a minute Philip.
You weren't here then but I can promise you, open carry didn't start here ten years ago.
I was open carrying in the 60's and the old folks were opening carrying 40 years before that and their ancestors before that.

What happened ten years ago was that City people, most up north, discovered what the rest of Rural Virginia knew all along. That open carry was legal.

When I was a teenager, I owned a Dan Wesson just like a lot of people then. I only had one handgun but I had a 6' barrel for the mountains, a 4" barrel for those trips to Harrisonburg, Satunton or Waynesbor and a 2" barrel for those special moments.

Please don't confuse the urbanites and burbinites coming out of the closet, with all of Virginia.

Granted, full preemption was a major Coup for all Virginians because it removed many of the local laws we just ignored before...but we did ignore them.

Shall issue was again a milestone for those that either needed or wanted a CHP. But Chippers are not a majority of gun owners in this state, far, far from it.

Now what's going on in the rest of the country may be different. I don't live there...don't have a dog in that fight and don't keep up with each state . I have enough to do to keep up with what's going on in Va. What I can tell you about other states is that many of them sat on their hands while their legislatures passed permit laws that gradually made it more difficult to both own and carry a gun.

No doubt there were those open carrying out in the country like yourself, but it wasn't a *movement*. And in the 60s, 70s and 80's the tide was running against us as far as gun control went. Open carriers at the time weren't influencing much as best I can tell. Things didn't start to turn until the early to mid 90's - about the time shall issue was taking off across the country. Open carry was starting to appear in the news as a movement around 2000 or so because of those who started doing so in urban areas, such as in NoVA.

I think that without the jump start that Shall Issue gave the country, open carry might have continued to be relegated to the rural areas, with little attention paid to it.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Oh...one other thing Philip.
My post above is correcting your historical facts, not criticism.:lol:

As I've said recently, I'm tickled pink with what you're doing this year.
 
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grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
What I fail to see is how conceal carry can in any way increase public awareness or alter perception. That is the crux of this discussion.
And that is where you are basically implying motives that I don't have.

Like I said, I try to focus my work on informing people as individuals, not the public in general. It's a very narrow, but critical distinction.

That and the perks-4-permits conundrum in which the argument is presented time and again that permit-holders have taken some government-approved course, submitted a fee and voluntarily REGISTERED themselves in order to get special privileges.
And I don't like that any more than you do. I put up with it only because it's the legal requirements to be allowed to conceal for now. I would love to do away with it entirely.

Changing laws to provide additional permit-based advancement is not evolutionary, it is de-evolutionary.

For every change to the law which allows greater privilege to permit holders they would be less inclined to support the concept of Constitutional carry because many of them are AGAINST lawful open carry. Look at Texas, for example. Open Carry is ILLEGAL there, but permitted conceal carry is lawful.
I would argue that it can be de-evolutionary, but that it can also be evolutionary.

If you are taking something that is currently legal for everyone and then restrict it only to permit holders, I would call that de-evolutionary. On the other hand, if you take something that is prohibited to everyone, and use an exemption for permit holders to get support to open it up for everyone, then it would be evolutionary.

Your Texas example would be de-evolutionary, because at one point they did allow open carry. An evolutionary example would be more like Arizona, where the carry permits were used to ultimately move towards constitutional carry.

I have read far too many posts on other sites by self-proclaimed "advocates" who advocate conceal carry by permit as the ONLY acceptable manner because they like having perks. They like being special. They do not care about everyone else and they certainly are not going to support having their "special" status revoked.

These very same people argue have on their side those who argue that public safety is a factor and the "permitted" carrier has completed a government-approved safety course and is more qualified, somehow, to carry a weapon for instance of self defense. That is a preposterous conclusion... but a common one.

Take away the permitting system and some members of this forum see a lot of their bread-and-butter clientele dry up overnight. Can't have that. Municipal revenues would suffer (slightly). Law enforcement wouldn't know who is or is not carrying a firearm...

WHOOPS! They already do not know.
Here's the real problem in this discussion. I have never made any of these arguments, and just because other people have made them is no reason for you to assume that I either am or will make them.

I'm not them, and my arguments aren't theirs. If you go back and read every one of my posts in this thread, I have consistently stated that my goal is constitutional carry, not perks. By assuming that I am actually trying to make the arguments you describe above, you are essentially labeling me a liar.

Please respond to the arguments that I am actually making, and don't start assigning me positions that I do not hold and have not advocated.

Conceal carry - as an ACT - does nothing to increase awareness or alter perception.

As a "permitted" policy it evokes, until abolished, extra privilege for its holders over those who choose to exercise their rights without asking their government for permission.

Again, in my experience, the act of concealed carry has helped change the perceptions of several of my friends, mostly through my revealing it to them after the fact. It has forced them to realize that they are already around people who carry every day, without their knowing it.

I don't care as much about trying to change public perception all in one go, because I realize that I won't make that much of a difference (especially in an area like NoVa). However, I can make a much greater difference on the individual level to convince people to change their minds. Because of that, that is where I tend to direct my focus.
 

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
Please respond to the arguments that I am actually making, and don't start assigning me positions that I do not hold and have not advocated.
I can respond both to your arguments, such that they are, AND present new support for my position.

Not everything is all about YOU, sahib.
 

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
I can respond both to your arguments, such that they are, AND present new support for my position.

Not everything is all about YOU, sahib.

Except that you provided no transition to indicate it wasn't in response to my arguments, as your previous comments were. Logically, that would suggest that you were associating my arguments (supporting P4P only as a means to the end of constitutional carry for all) with the arguments you were complaining about (supporting P4P as an end in and of itself).

Of course, I'd have to say that Philip's post aptly describes the principles that I support. I don't view P4P as a good thing, merely as the best of several bad options when we can't get the full restoration of rights that we want.
 

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
So now I should be required to predicate my own statements with "And this is not in direct or immediate response to anything written by grylnsmn"?

Yeah. OK.

Logic does not appear to be one of your strong suits.

You say you do not view P4P as a good thing but that it is merely the best of the worst, essentially. The lesser of two evils is still evil.
 

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
So now I should be required to predicate my own statements with "And this is not in direct or immediate response to anything written by grylnsmn"?

Yeah. OK.

Logic does not appear to be one of your strong suits.

I'm sorry, but I don't read minds. Apparently, neither do you. I made a logical conclusion that what you wrote in one paragraph was connected to what you wrote in the previous paragraph, because you provided no indication otherwise. Don't blame me that you posted something that didn't clearly communicate your intent.

You say you do not view P4P as a good thing but that it is merely the best of the worst, essentially. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

At the same time, by taking the lesser evil, you are reducing the overall amount of evil. It's an imperfect world, and you have to work with what you've got.
 
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jmelvin

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,195
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Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
No doubt there were those open carrying out in the country like yourself, but it wasn't a *movement*. And in the 60s, 70s and 80's the tide was running against us as far as gun control went. Open carriers at the time weren't influencing much as best I can tell. Things didn't start to turn until the early to mid 90's - about the time shall issue was taking off across the country. Open carry was starting to appear in the news as a movement around 2000 or so because of those who started doing so in urban areas, such as in NoVA.

I think that without the jump start that Shall Issue gave the country, open carry might have continued to be relegated to the rural areas, with little attention paid to it.

In places like Arizona open carry have been a part of the normal culture for ages and not just in the rural areas, but in the big cities too. When I left Ohio for Arizona it was another Ohioan who had lived in Arizona in the 70s who told me about open carry and it being a common practice even then in the big cities and rural areas back then and that's how he had carried. When I arrived no one had any issue with open carry anywhere I went and it wasn't because permits had worked so well, but because it was already commonplace there and throughout many of the western states.

Although I don't recall seeing anyone open carry in my home state of Ohio (likely because of the very small social circle I was a part of) it is my understanding that even then (80s and 90s) there were Ohians who open carried regularly long before the establishment of the concealed handgun license. Heck some of my in-laws carried that way (or carried concealed under the prudent man basis) before the Ohio CHL ever came along and buggered up some of the laws that were perfectly dandy (from what I understand anyway).

I perhaps can understand the desire for a permitting system to add concealed carry to one's existing ability to carry openly, but I am not supportive of using the permitting system to lead the way when we are talking about a human right. Fortunately I think the VCDL has been pretty fair in their attempts to work towards everyone carrying (concealed or open) and I do appreciate this.
 

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
Don't blame me that you posted something that didn't clearly communicate your intent.
Don't blame me because you implied intent which was not there. I did not invent the internet. Talk to Al Gore.
At the same time, by taking the lesser evil, you are reducing the overall amount of evil. It's an imperfect world, and you have to work with what you've got.
(Godwin Alert)

So if Hitler had only murdered four million Jews it would have been better because it reduced the overall amount?

Heck, in my "perfect" world the South is an independent nation, there is no professional mercenary police force and government fears the people.
 

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
Don't blame me because you implied intent which was not there. I did not invent the internet. Talk to Al Gore.
Ahh, so you bear no responsibility for your poor communication skills. Got it.

If someone wishes to communicate an idea, the burden is on them to do so effectively. The listener is not responsible for the speaker's poor communication. (Or, if you prefer, the old saying: "If the student didn't learn, the teacher didn't teach.")

(Godwin Alert)

So if Hitler had only murdered four million Jews it would have been better because it reduced the overall amount?

Heck, in my "perfect" world the South is an independent nation, there is no professional mercenary police force and government fears the people.

Quick English lesson: The word "better" is a comparative term, and is meaningless without context.

Yes, 4 million people dying is better than 6 million. In the same context 2 million is better than 4 million, and so forth.

But, your analogy is inapt. A better way to look at it is whether or not it is worthwhile to save those people you can, even if you can't save all 6 million Jews. It's better for you to save those that you can than it is to refuse to do anything because you can't save everyone.
 

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
Ahh, so you bear no responsibility for your poor communication skills.
This is the internet. I bear no responsibility for how you choose to receive information.
If someone wishes to communicate an idea, the burden is on them to do so effectively. The listener is not responsible for the speaker's poor communication.
I could not disagree more. The listener must remove their blinders and attempt to receive information objectively, rather than attempt to pass it through their own bias filter.
Or, if you prefer, the old saying: "If the student didn't learn, the teacher didn't teach."
Having been an instructor of many people in many different things, I have found some are capable of learning and some are not. I hardly think that is reason enough to discount the teaching method.

Keep doing what you've always done and you'll always get what you've always got.
Quick English lesson: The word "better" is a comparative term, and is meaningless without context.
Thanks. I consider myself sufficiently versed in "English" and do not need lessons from you.
A better way to look at it is whether or not it is worthwhile to save those people you can, even if you can't save all 6 million Jews. It's better for you to save those that you can than it is to refuse to do anything because you can't save everyone.
Ah, but is it better to save some of those people when there is a real and viable solution available with which to save all of them?

And where is the morality of allowing some to die... and how do you choose which live and which die?

Freedom is an absolute. If everyone is not free then no one is truly free.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Ahh, so you bear no responsibility for your poor communication skills. Got it.

If someone wishes to communicate an idea, the burden is on them to do so effectively. The listener is not responsible for the speaker's poor communication. (Or, if you prefer, the old saying: "If the student didn't learn, the teacher didn't teach.")



Quick English lesson: The word "better" is a comparative term, and is meaningless without context.

Yes, 4 million people dying is better than 6 million. In the same context 2 million is better than 4 million, and so forth.

But, your analogy is inapt. A better way to look at it is whether or not it is worthwhile to save those people you can, even if you can't save all 6 million Jews. It's better for you to save those that you can than it is to refuse to do anything because you can't save everyone.


You sound very familiar:(:(:(:(
Almost like you've been here before?????????????????????????
 
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