Pastor Killed in Drug Investigation

[AZkopper]

imported post

This incident is systemic of two major problems in law enforcement today:

1. A war on drugs that has gone on for decades, with no measurable success. With asset seizure laws, states, counties, and municipalities have a financial incentive in waging the "war on drugs". This "War" takes the shape of non-uniformed, usually "scruffy-criminal" looking cops, acting largely free of oversight.

2. The "Us-vs.-Them" and adversarial mindset found and advocated in many agencies (seen largely, in my limited experience, in larger urban areas or blue-leaning states). Police are largely seen as being separated from those they 'serve and protect'. Police are trained and pressured by their cities/towns to be 'proactive': Make lots of traffic stops, write lots of tickets, search-search-search-for drugs (see #1 above).

I have not watched the video yet. From reading the many posts, it seems that the pastor's vehicle was 'rushed' by scruffy looking men waving guns. It also seems that this was to "talk" to the pastor...which I find very odd, since such as use of force has previously been determined by courts to be equal to an arrest...

Additional questions that will be brought up in the lawsuit:

1. Such a 'raid' on the vehicle would be synonimous with an arrest. If an arrest was going to be made, why not wait for a marked vehicle to do so? That is the norm.

2. Can they prove the pastor knew he was under arrest, or was being charged by police? In light of what could be construed as a car jacking, the pastor's actions in trying to escape and preserve both his life and the life of his passengerr would be justified.

I do not rush to judgement, but unarmed mad is dead, shot by police who rushed him with guns to 'talk' to him. Unless information comes out to radically change the facts, people need to go to jail and we as a society need to have a serious discussion on the desired nature of law enforcement in the United States.

 

[We-the-People]

imported post

Bad shooting.

It will almost certainly be, at most, a slap on the wrist to the officers.



Badges around their necks or not, storming a gun in a car like that, with weapons drawn and wearing gangsta crap clothes, the rational and normal person is going to see.......BIG GUNS AND THUGS...... and think FLEE.

With the windows up yelling police does not sufficiently notify the occupant and they have an obligation to identify without a doubt, that they are cops. This is especially true with undercover gangster looking (maybe some even are) agents of the government.

I'm not anti-cop, the vast majority serve a useful and necessary purpose in our society. I am against the para-military type units and tactics, the bubba's that figure you WILL JUMP, the ones that don't understand basic civil rights. I do not expect any cop to know every law there is on the books, it's simply not possible. I do expect them to know what the RIGHTS of citizens are and respect them.

We need some changes. Officials of any type should not be allowed to intimidate, threaten, coerce, or lie in order to force compliance out of fear from a citizen. How many stories must we read of legal OCers being harassed with no RAS? How many stories of unlawful detentions at immigration checkpoints inside the border? How many cases of officers intimidating citizens to allow searches? And how many cases of officers lying about what they can do? This is just the ones that are using "creative" police techniques.

Then we have the ones that have power issues and expect compliance with every illegal order they give. "Let's see some id" ring a bell. With no RAS many believe if you don't ID yourself you're going to jail. That it Unconstitutional....but it still happens....DAILY.... in this country.

The pastors wife needs to file a wrongful death civil suit. She also needs to persue the investigation into the actions of the officers and demand criminal prosecution. If they were following written policies, then criminal prosecution of their superiors.

 

[opencarrybilly]

imported post

We-the-People wrote:

Bad shooting.

It will almost certainly be, at most, a slap on the wrist to the officers.



Badges around their necks or not, storming a gun in a car like that, with weapons drawn and wearing gangsta crap clothes, the rational and normal person is going to see.......BIG GUNS AND THUGS...... and think FLEE.

With the windows up yelling police does not sufficiently notify the occupant and they have an obligation to identify without a doubt, that they are cops. This is especially true with undercover gangster looking (maybe some even are) agents of the government.

I'm not anti-cop, the vast majority serve a useful and necessary purpose in our society. I am against the para-military type units and tactics, the bubba's that figure you WILL JUMP, the ones that don't understand basic civil rights. I do not expect any cop to know every law there is on the books, it's simply not possible. I do expect them to know what the RIGHTS of citizens are and respect them.

We need some changes. Officials of any type should not be allowed to intimidate, threaten, coerce, or lie in order to force compliance out of fear from a citizen. How many stories must we read of legal OCers being harassed with no RAS? How many stories of unlawful detentions at immigration checkpoints inside the border? How many cases of officers intimidating citizens to allow searches? And how many cases of officers lying about what they can do? This is just the ones that are using "creative" police techniques.

Then we have the ones that have power issues and expect compliance with every illegal order they give. "Let's see some id" ring a bell. With no RAS many believe if you don't ID yourself you're going to jail. That it Unconstitutional....but it still happens....DAILY.... in this country.

The pastors wife needs to file a wrongful death civil suit. She also needs to persue the investigation into the actions of the officers and demand criminal prosecution. If they were following written policies, then criminal prosecution of their superiors.

100% Right.

 

[Carnivore]

imported post

The preacher boy could've probably simply answered a few simple questions and went on his way,,,, that is if his conscience/vehicle/and motives were perfectly legal.. I think his big mistake was probably watching too much Dukes of Hazard and trying to pull a vehicle getaway from ole Roscoe "P" Coltrain wasn't gonna cut it this time with the agenda that the DEA was working on in the first place..

There's probably just as many or more filthy clergy hiding under the sacred robe as there are dirty cops, The preacher boy screwed up !!

 

[Mike]

imported post

Carnivore wrote:

The preacher boy could've probably simply answered a few simple questions and went on his way

You mean from a couple of creamin' gun wielding ninjas in undercover street clothes? really? You stop for such types?

 

[PrayingForWar]

imported post

Mike wrote:

Carnivore wrote:

The preacher boy could've probably simply answered a few simple questions and went on his way

You mean from a couple of creamin' gun wielding ninjas in undercover street clothes? really? You stop for such types?

I'm getting all this info third had, of course my initial reaction was that the "pastor" F'ed up, and he may have if indeed he knew they were police, but we'll never know that now. However from everything I've read here it certainly looks like a situation where I would have drawn and opened up myself at best, if not done the same thing and slammmed the car in gear and tried evasive manuvers until I was shot. The cops are doing the best they can most of the time, and as it's been pointed out most of the time you deal with them as respectfully as you would with anyone else (depending on your upbringing I guess) you go on about your business unmolested.

That said I've never had a crackhead inside my car with "creamin' gun wielding ninjas in undercover street clothes" drawing down on me either. So I guess if you stay away from crackheads, and away from neighboorhoods where "creamin' gun wielding ninjas in undercover street clothes" jump out of every knook and cranny you'll probably avoid such trouble.

Like I said though, the war on drugs has gotten out of control, and if the "right wing" ever wants any credibility as the protectors of liberty, they'll get their heads out of their a$$ and find a different solution. The "left wing" fringe is after total legalization which is asinine, but no more asinine (or insane) than continuing this "war on drugs".

 

[Carnivore]

imported post

The fella wasn't pulled over by the Gangsta vehicle,:banghead: they walked up to his vehicle to ask him some questions at a gas station from what I gathered from the article.even in front of surveilance cameras.. Now if the majority of posters feel you'remore protectedto have a video camera, and voice recorder on your person when conversing with, or being confronted by LE, them why in heck wouldn't you feel fairly safe in a public business, with video running 24/7/365 and patrons all over the place.I think the preacher boy had something on,about, or in his past that wasn't kosher with the laws or he wouldn't have acted so quickly like a get away vehicle.. I ain't afraid of humans , and don't go slamming down in reverse and hauling mail to nowhere everytime some one gets within talking distance of my vehicle..

I suppose you'all would still defend this preacher boy if he had run over somebodys granny /infant child/or any inocent bystander by not looking in his rearview just because he was afraid of who walked up to his vehicle, or stated they wanted to question him.. I think there's more to this supposed victims personal life than is public knowlege.

 

[FrankC]

imported post

Now go back and actually watch the video, two plainclothes dudes running up on a car in a parking lot with guns drawn are trying to get themselves shot at best. Crying about getting bumped on the hip and trying to say that the pastor "ran one of the officers down" is debunked by simply watching the video, they were way out of line in their actions.

 

[Carnivore]

imported post

BENEFIT OF CLERGY, English law. An exemption of the punishment of death which the laws impose on the commission of certain crimes, on the culprit demanding it. By modern statute's, benefit of clergy was rather a substitution of a more mild punishment for the punishment of death.
2. It was lately granted, not only to the clergy, as was formerly the case, but to all persons. The benefit of clergy seems never to have been extended to the crime of high treason, nor to have embraced misdemeanors inferior to felony. Vide 1 Chit. Cr. Law, 667 to 668 4 Bl. Com. ch. 28. But this privilege improperly given to the clergy, because they had more learning than others) is now abolished by stat. 7 Geo. IV. c. 28, s. 6.
3. By the Act of Congress of April 30, 1790, it is provided, Sec. 30, that the benefit of clergy shall not be used or allowed, upon conviction of any crime, for which, by any statute of the United States, the punishment is, or shall be declared to be, death.



I guess everything in inconclusive unless we can add audio to the video. they may or may not have identified themselves as DEA/police.

 

[JT]

imported post

What we know: (Based on the video and news reports)

The pastor was not a subject of any investigation.

For an unknown reason he at least gave a ride to a person who was under investigation.

The undercover agents did not approach him until sometime after the woman under investigation was dropped off.

The undercover agents stated that their only intent was to question the pastor.

The undercover agents stated that they identified themselves as police.

After the pastor exited the conveinence store and returned to his vehicle, the undercover agents pulled up quickly in what looks like an unmarked, dark chevy avalanche

Two agents jump out of both rear side doors with guns apparently drawn and move quickly toward the pastor's vehicle.

When the pastor became aware of them he put his vehicle in reverse and tried to get away. One of the agents sustained apparently minor injuries from the moving vehicle.

At some point the officers opened fire. From the video it appears to me that they opened fire just as he started to move forward.

There appears to be acontradiction in how many shots were fired and when, based on police statements and the statement of the store owner.

That is all I can think of based on what I have seen andread. I still see nothing on the videothat would justify the shooting and the police haven't provided any justification either. What stikes me as strange is that we haven't heard from any other eyewitnesses. It is clear from the video that other customers were at the store since there are at least two other cars at the pumps.

 

[FrankC]

imported post

I'm surprised that HankT hasn't posted to the effect that it's a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person...lol, I don't care how you spin it. This was a screw-up bigtime and these cops got caught with their pants down.

 

[Sheriff]

imported post

opencarrybilly wrote:

I think that there are good cops. I think they seem to be intimidated into silence by the bad ones.

Yes sir! There's numerous reasons for this intimidation into silence. For example, about 20 years ago I watched a sergeant criminally assault a handcuffed prisoner that I already had in custody. The prisoner and I were both laying on the ground after an exhaustive foot pursuit. Didn't take much to exhaust me.

But, what could I do? Had I filed a formal complaint, I would have NO friends in law enforcement again forever. My career would have been over in an instant. Not to mention, it would have been my word against that of a veteran sergeant who would have denied it. it was a no-win situation. I simply had to suck it up and keep quiet. This still bothers me today. :banghead:

 

[Carnivore]

imported post

So you can be bought!!

 

[opencarrybilly]

imported post

Sheriff wrote:

opencarrybilly wrote:

I think that there are good cops. I think they seem to be intimidated into silence by the bad ones.

Yes sir! There's numerous reasons for this intimidation into silence. For example, about 20 years ago I watched a sergeant criminally assault a handcuffed prisoner that I already had in custody. The prisoner and I were both laying on the ground after an exhaustive foot pursuit. Didn't take much to exhaust me.

But, what could I do? Had I filed a formal complaint, I would have NO friends in law enforcement again forever. My career would have been over in an instant. Not to mention, it would have been my word against that of a veteran sergeant who would have denied it. it was a no-win situation. I simply had to suck it up and keep quiet. This still bothers me today. :banghead:

You are obviously a good man and a good LEO. I cannot tell you what you could have done differently. And, second guessing would not be helpful to you. But, maybe there is something that officers can do. It seems obvious from your experience - I am sure that it is typical - that individual direct action in response to a situation like the one you describewould not be possible or effective.

If I may, please let me suggest the formation of groups of officers dedicated to the improving of the attitudes and behaviour of their colleagues and commanders who would do some serious educating, internally to departments and in the public forum to demand honorable behavior from their peers and specific and thorough-going written policies and procedures from their superiors seriously, and without tricky verbal "policies" to the contrary, to give serious instructions to be followed and to lay out serious penalties for not following them.

If I, as a layman with a lot of guts and little ability, can help, please call upon me.

 

[Carnivore]

imported post

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpp/news/GBI_Investigates_Lavonia_Minister_Death_090209



http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Lavonia+&1s=GA&2c=Toccoa&2s=GA



So the preacher/husband/father to beis 17 miles from his residence,with a female who is later arrested for Coccain possession and distribution,andis approached by cops in the parking lot of a business that is under surveilance for questionable illegal drug activity, and gets shot and eventually dies because he tried to evade police.

What about this doesn't cause some to question the preachers character??

 

[Deanimator]

imported post

Sheriff wrote:

opencarrybilly wrote:

I think that there are good cops. I think they seem to be intimidated into silence by the bad ones.

Yes sir! There's numerous reasons for this intimidation into silence. For example, about 20 years ago I watched a sergeant criminally assault a handcuffed prisoner that I already had in custody. The prisoner and I were both laying on the ground after an exhaustive foot pursuit. Didn't take much to exhaust me.

But, what could I do? Had I filed a formal complaint, I would have NO friends in law enforcement again forever. My career would have been over in an instant. Not to mention, it would have been my word against that of a veteran sergeant who would have denied it. it was a no-win situation. I simply had to suck it up and keep quiet. This still bothers me today. :banghead:

What incidents like that do is to give the citizen a choice, do what HE has to do, just as you did, or to take it. It's unfortunate, but if my rights are violated and I have to take you down with the perpetrator in order to do it, that's just the way it has to be. I'm NEVER going to let somebody abuse me and get away with it if there's ANY way to strike back.

It's like WWII. It'd be NICE if we didn't HAVE to kill hundreds of thousands of German draftees, but when they put on the Feldgrau, pick up the Mauser and show up to the party, you do what needs doing, whether it was Fritz's idea or not. Likewise, if Fritz's family lives within ten miles of a ball bearing plant, they may end up as charcoal briquettes. It's a shame, but vastly preferable to the alternative.

I have better things to do than to sell everything I own to finance lawsuits against cops. But if it becomes necessary, I'll do it. And if in the process, that cop's family suffers financial privation, I'm accepting of that. Likewise, if a cop watches passively, and tries to cover for him after the fact, my interests trump those of him and his family. It's a shame, but Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima were shames too. I'd have still given the orders or pushed the bomb release myself. I don't owe a bad cop, or a "good" cop who protects his own interests to the detriment of mine and justice, any more than my parents' generation owed that fourteen year old Hitlerjunge dragging a Panzerfaust bigger then he was or that fourteen year old girl pasting balloon bombs together.

We'll both do what we have to do. In the end, SOMEBODY'S going to get hurt. I'll fight like a tiger to make sure it isn't me and mine.

 

[wrightme]

imported post

Carnivore wrote:

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpp/news/GBI_Investigates_Lavonia_Minister_Death_090209



http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Lavonia+&1s=GA&2c=Toccoa&2s=GA



So the preacher/husband/father to beis 17 miles from his residence,with a female who is later arrested for Coccain possession and distribution,andis approached by cops in the parking lot of a business that is under surveilance for questionable illegal drug activity, and gets shot and eventually dies because he tried to evade police.

What about this doesn't cause some to question the preachers character??

you are still assuming the the preacher understood that they were LE. Unless that is known, your questions about the preachers' character are premature.

 

[Carnivore]

imported post

I guess you didn't follow up on the attached links, they clearly state that an uninvolved witness claims that the police identified themselves, and had badges around their necks..

 

[Carnivore]

imported post

I wonder how the wife will explain to the soon to be newchild someday that his/her father was shot 17 miles from home after dropping off another woman who was in possession of illegal drugs near a known/suspected drug selling location?



I know that another woman/coccain involvement/ploice/possible arrest/death/17 miles from home wouldn't fly for a legitimate explaination where I'm from..or in my marriage..

 

[opencarrybilly]

imported post

Carnivore wrote:

I wonder how the wife will explain to the soon to be newchild someday that his/her father was shot 17 miles from home after dropping off another woman who was in possession of illegal drugs near a known/suspected drug selling location?



I know that another woman/coccain involvement/ploice/possible arrest/death/17 miles from home wouldn't fly for a legitimate explaination where I'm from..or in my marriage..

Can you people give it a rest? Be mindful, please, of the grieving family, friends, and congregation.