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Photo ID with a CPL to OC on a bus?

Freedom1Man

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I take it you never read the thread, just read what you wanted and or interpreted it the wrong way. Never once was anyone talking about a LEO asking for a CPL while waiting for the bus.

Now to get down to the nitty gritty. Technically, if you step onto a city bus while OC'ing, the driver could ask you if your weapon is loaded and if it was he could ask you to display your CPL. Same thing for me, if you get into my car and you are OC'ing, first thing I am asking is if it is loaded and if so, do you have your CPL? If not I would ask you too kindly unload your pistol. People break the law every day, wiether it be buy driving without a license or whatever, but if someone has the chance to not allow another to break the law, then they should do so and really have the right to do so. So if a LEO seen me standing at a bus stop while OC'ing, and then he waited for me to get on the bus, he could THEN ask you for your CPL. How many people do you know who OC out on the streets and the pistol is not loaded? Also, every gun should be treated like it is loaded for safety. YES we all know what assuming does, but in the end, if you step onto a city bus and the proper authority asks to see your CPL, YOU HAVE to display it.

IT was while I was waiting for a bus. I missed the bus thanks to the ******* cop.

I took out my CPL he took it from me and then demanded government issued photo ID. He implied that I would not get my CPL back without it.

Now as for handing it over.... No such thing is happening next time. The way the law is worded I have to have the CPL on my person when I am CC and OC loaded in a vehicle. I was also CC at the time. Next time I will not hand over the CPL I will display it and that is all.
 
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BigDave

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IT was while I was waiting for a bus. I missed the bus thanks to the ******* cop.

I took my CPL and demanded government issued photo ID. He implied that I would not get my CPL back without it.

Now as for handing it over.... No such thing is happening next time. The way the law is worded I have to have the CPL on my person when I am CC and OC loaded in a vehicle. I was also CC at the time. Next time I will not hand over the CPL I will display it and that is all.

Curious, if you were conceal carrying, how did he know? What brought him to the bus stop and contact you?
 

Freedom1Man

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Curious, if you were conceal carrying, how did he know? What brought him to the bus stop and contact you?

The Federal Way Transit Center has security and a Sheriff there all the time.

I normally carry one on my leg... As I was on Monday.

I had sat down to read, "A Primer on the Second Amendment," since there was no benches I sat on the ground against the sign post. The security guard told me that sitting down was loitering and it was a violation of the law. I asked if it was state of local law. He told me state law. I asked him to cite it and he could not.


So I stood up to wait for my bus. He walked over and griped to the Sheriff deputy and that dim wit came over and asked if I was getting on a bus, I nodded my head yes. Then he started getting an attitude. Asked if my gun was loaded I affirmed that it was, he asked if I had a CPL, yes, then he asked for it. After looking at it he demanded government photo ID to go with it.

So like I said next time. I will DISPLAY it to whomever and never hand it over.

dis·play (d-spl)
v. dis·played, dis·play·ing, dis·plays
v.tr.
1.
a. To present or hold up to view.

I suspect I will be arrested yet again time will tell. I hope not, it does get old.

The more they poke me the harder I become to deal with. I don't yell, scream, resist, any of that, I just calmly affirm my rights. Cops get really worked up over that for some reason.
 

DeltaOps

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IT was while I was waiting for a bus. I missed the bus thanks to the ******* cop.

I took out my CPL he took it from me and then demanded government issued photo ID. He implied that I would not get my CPL back without it.

Now as for handing it over.... No such thing is happening next time. The way the law is worded I have to have the CPL on my person when I am CC and OC loaded in a vehicle. I was also CC at the time. Next time I will not hand over the CPL I will display it and that is all.

WHOA, now the real truth comes out. If you are CC'ing, you have to show your CPL when they ask for it. I am guessing he seen it some how, but then again I am not sure since you said you were CC'ing. You said you were carrying on your leg? Was it a ankle holster? Maybe I am confused with this whole thread now :banghead:

Next time when you start a thread to ask a question, PLEASE include all details first. It will help out with a lot of things in the long run.
 
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Freedom1Man

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WHOA, now the real truth comes out. If you are CC'ing, you have to show your CPL when they ask for it. I am guessing he seen it some how, but then again I am not sure since you said you were CC'ing. You said you were carrying on your leg? Was it a ankle holster? Maybe I am confused with this whole thread now :banghead:

Next time when you start a thread to ask a question, PLEASE include all details first. It will help out with a lot of things in the long run.

I was OC and CC at the same time.

The OC was a drop leg holster, it puts it at a perfect relaxed reach for me.

He didn't even notice the CC. HE only talked about the OC.

He did not ask for a CPL for the CC he was asking for the CPL for the OC to get on the bus.
The fact that I was CC was not relevant to the stop. He did not know I was CC. I didn't tell him either.

AGAIN the stop was for an OC because I was waiting for a bus. I fail to see how you are confused.
 

Freedom1Man

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The "to any other person when required by law to do so" refers to purchasing a pistol from an FFL, if I desire to be exempted from the 5 day waiting period. I am not required by law to show my CPL to anyone else, security guard, bus driver, etc., except for a police officer upon demand. If I am in a situation where I am not required to be in possession my CPL they cannot cite me for not displaying it because there is no requirement for me to carry it. There is no requirement in law for me to show my CPL to a security guard at a courthouse to check in my firearm - nor any ID at all.

The CPL cannot act as an identification document by itself in Washington State because it does not contain a photograph of the person it was issued to. Notice where CPL is listed here: http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense//idproof.html#listb

The question had nothing to do with the CPL being ID or not.

It had to do with IS there a requirement to HAVE ID while using a CPL? The answers seems to be a resounding NO.
 

Freedom1Man

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One does not need a state issued ID or Drivers License unless you are participating in activities as driving.
When required to show your CPL which has your drivers license number on it, DOB, Height, Weight Hair and Eye Color and your address, everything your drivers license has on it except for the photo portion.

As to trying to sell RCW 9.41.060 when riding a bus, good luck on that one.

For those who say some of the wording in the law does not matter or those who feel they are not required to show a cpl to an officer when in an area that requires it, step up let us know how it went.

Now coming up with the concept that the wording of "Or" or "And" in the law does not mean anything, priceless! :lol:
This thread is a fertile area for misinformation.

Buses have bike racks. Biking is a lawful outdoor recreational activity. Hiking is too. Please define hiking....
 

sudden valley gunner

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Some people are forgetting that laws have to be compatible with our State constitution.

An officer without PC or RS that a crime is being done, cannot just demand to see your papers.....
 

BigDave

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I was OC and CC at the same time.

I think you need to get your story straight before writing as with any thing the surrounding circumstances make the whole story come to light.

You were open carrying or concealed carrying and an encounter with a Deputy Sheriff occurred where you told him it was loaded and your intent was to ride the bus (a restricted area when carrying a loaded gun) RAS was easily formed there and the way the RCW is written the Officer can demand your CPL which you did provide but when asked for a government ID which mind you your CPL already has the information except for a picture ID.
The Deputy might have started you down the path to missing your bus, but you took his hand and ran with it.

One final thing, you now say you were arrested and likely will be again! What, where did you say you were arrested?

This entire thread is sounding more like a made up story and someone looking for attention.:banghead:
 
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rapgood

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Great thread!

Folks, welcome to the wonderful world of statutory interpretation. This is precisely the process that legislators go through when creating or revising a law, and precisely the process that attorneys and judges go through when attempting to describe and interpret that law. Many "interpretations" of a statute might be considered "reasonable" and, as such, different rules (such as the rule of lenity) may be implicated to dictate how the interpretation is to be made.

The "correct" answer to the question about how the statute is really to be interpreted is, "It depends." It depends on how persuasive the attorney arguing one interpretation is compared to the attorney arguing a different interpretation. It depends on how one judge interprets the statute compared to how another judge interprets the statute. Then, when courts are in disagreement, one with the other, it depends on how the majority of the appellate court judges considering the question interpret the statute. If one appellate court in a given state ("state" for the purposes of this example) interprets the statute differently than another appellate court in that state, it then depends on how the majority of the supreme court justices for that state interpret the statute. It might, considering the implications of enforcement of the statute, even be taken into the federal court system where even more judges get to weigh in on the question. Possibly, the question could go as high as to require the U.S. Supreme Court (more accurately, a majority or plurality of the justices) to weigh in on it. And, sometimes, even they get it wrong.

However, frequently, as in the case of RCW 9.41.050(1)(b), the "accurate" meaning of a statute is subject to the "it depends" analysis.
 

Freedom1Man

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I think you need to get your story straight before writing as with any thing the surrounding circumstances make the whole story come to light.

You were open carrying or concealed carrying and an encounter with a Deputy Sheriff occurred where you told him it was loaded and your intent was to ride the bus (a restricted area when carrying a loaded gun) RAS was easily formed there and the way the RCW is written the Officer can demand your CPL which you did provide but when asked for a government ID which mind you your CPL already has the information except for a picture ID.
The Deputy might have started you down the path to missing your bus, but you took his hand and ran with it.

One final thing, you now say you were arrested and likely will be again! What, where did you say you were arrested?

This entire thread is sounding more like a made up story and someone looking for attention.:banghead:


The question was about needing photo ID or not.:cuss: :banghead:
I AFFIRMED it was loaded.:idea: I did not VOLUNTEER that information like you're implying.:cuss:

Not arrested this time. That arrested comment is due to PAST experiences. I did not even try to imply that I was arrested THIS TIME. :banghead:

If you have questions about details IM ME otherwise the question has been answered. Photo ID is not required to verify a CPL.

The story is true. It was outlined to better understand the question that I was asking.

I gave details as needed when people tried to fill them in on their own in an attempt to avoid confusion. I see that it did fail with you though.
 

Freedom1Man

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Great thread!

Folks, welcome to the wonderful world of statutory interpretation. This is precisely the process that legislators go through when creating or revising a law, and precisely the process that attorneys and judges go through when attempting to describe and interpret that law. Many "interpretations" of a statute might be considered "reasonable" and, as such, different rules (such as the rule of lenity) may be implicated to dictate how the interpretation is to be made.

The "correct" answer to the question about how the statute is really to be interpreted is, "It depends." It depends on how persuasive the attorney arguing one interpretation is compared to the attorney arguing a different interpretation. It depends on how one judge interprets the statute compared to how another judge interprets the statute. Then, when courts are in disagreement, one with the other, it depends on how the majority of the appellate court judges considering the question interpret the statute. If one appellate court in a given state ("state" for the purposes of this example) interprets the statute differently than another appellate court in that state, it then depends on how the majority of the supreme court justices for that state interpret the statute. It might, considering the implications of enforcement of the statute, even be taken into the federal court system where even more judges get to weigh in on the question. Possibly, the question could go as high as to require the U.S. Supreme Court (more accurately, a majority or plurality of the justices) to weigh in on it. And, sometimes, even they get it wrong.

However, frequently, as in the case of RCW 9.41.050(1)(b), the "accurate" meaning of a statute is subject to the "it depends" analysis.

Then it's VOID for VAGUENESS.
 

BigDave

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The question was about needing photo ID or not.:cuss: :banghead:
I AFFIRMED it was loaded.:idea: I did not VOLUNTEER that information like you're implying.:cuss:

Not arrested this time. That arrested comment is due to PAST experiences. I did not even try to imply that I was arrested THIS TIME. :banghead:

If you have questions about details IM ME otherwise the question has been answered. Photo ID is not required to verify a CPL.

The story is true. It was outlined to better understand the question that I was asking.

I gave details as needed when people tried to fill them in on their own in an attempt to avoid confusion. I see that it did fail with you though.

Not to provide all the details in a situation will not give an accurate view if a law was violated or not and some only provide that which will look favorable for them, as this one.:cuss::cuss::eek::cuss:
 

SeattleWingsfan

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This is an aside thought, that I don't think deserves it's own thread.

If you were traveling on public transport or forced to after a car broke down. Before getting on. Could you, I believe you could. If traveling with another person. Give them your magazine and open carry a unloaded weapon. Having that person ride 15 feet away from you on the transportation and be legal if you did not have a CPL. I know you would still be asked for CPL as it would be probable that you had a loaded gun. But in the end, I think you would not have broken a law.

Most open carry people I think have CPL. However I know a few who do not and I think it may be a good solution to a bad unexpected situation.
 

BigDave

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This is an aside thought, that I don't think deserves it's own thread.

If you were traveling on public transport or forced to after a car broke down. Before getting on. Could you, I believe you could. If traveling with another person. Give them your magazine and open carry a unloaded weapon. Having that person ride 15 feet away from you on the transportation and be legal if you did not have a CPL. I know you would still be asked for CPL as it would be probable that you had a loaded gun. But in the end, I think you would not have broken a law.

Most open carry people I think have CPL. However I know a few who do not and I think it may be a good solution to a bad unexpected situation.

All that would need to happen is that the handgun is unloaded and you can retain the ammo and/or the magazine on your person.
In the current conversation the officer asked if the gun was loaded and Freedom1Man affirmed that it was. As I have said before it is all in the details.

RCW 9.41.010(10) "Loaded" means:
(a) There is a cartridge in the chamber of the firearm;
(b) Cartridges are in a clip that is locked in place in the firearm;
(c) There is a cartridge in the cylinder of the firearm, if the firearm is a revolver;
(d) There is a cartridge in the tube or magazine that is inserted in the action; or
(e) There is a ball in the barrel and the firearm is capped or primed if the firearm is a muzzle loader.
 

Vitaeus

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...and we are back around to the "duct -tape it to your forehead" the RCW's don't have extra crap about where the bullets are as long as they are NOT in the firearm.
 

END_THE_FED

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This is an aside thought, that I don't think deserves it's own thread.

If you were traveling on public transport or forced to after a car broke down. Before getting on. Could you, I believe you could. If traveling with another person. Give them your magazine and open carry a unloaded weapon. Having that person ride 15 feet away from you on the transportation and be legal if you did not have a CPL. I know you would still be asked for CPL as it would be probable that you had a loaded gun. But in the end, I think you would not have broken a law.

Most open carry people I think have CPL. However I know a few who do not and I think it may be a good solution to a bad unexpected situation.

The short answer is yes, it would be legal.

It would also be unnecessary. You could keep the magazines on you. You just can not have a loaded firearm.
 
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