A CPL can only be Demanded when RAS or PC that a crime is afoot is known by the LEO...
From RCW 9.41.050:
(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.
A crime, such as a misdemeanor, perhaps? Carrying a loaded weapon on board a vehicle is a crime. Certain people are exempt from the law, but unless you have your CPL tattooed on your forehead, the officer does not know if you are exempt or not. RAS is satisfied by the text of the RCW and the fact that the OP admitted his gun was loaded and stated his intent to board a bus with it. If he actually did so in front of the officer without unloading it first or displaying his CPL, that would generate probable cause to make an arrest.
You've made 3 million posts? You
ARE busy!
1: Loaded carry in a vehicle under RCW 9.41.060(8) is NOT a crime. 2: Concealed carry without a CPL is NO a crime under RCW 9.41.060(8)...your problem is you assume guns are illegal and they are not, you assume anyone carrying a gun is committing a crime,,,and they are not. Where do you come from, NY, NJ or MA?
That would probably be because .060 isn't the statute that forbids loaded carry in a vehicle without a CPL, .050 is. And in the text of .050 it states that doing so without a CPL is a misdemeanor. That's a crime, if you're unaware.
I don't assume guns are illegal, any more than you do. What I do believe, however, is that if you break the law in front of a police officer, you will suffer the natural consequences of your action. I was born in Seattle, I've lived in Washington all my life, except for 6 months in Alaska between the ages of 1 and 2.
You just do not understand...we are INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. Article 1 Section 7 (and the 4A) prevent fishing expeditions by LE. LE must have reasonable suspicion, or probable cause (a higher standard) that a crime has been/is being committed to detain you for questioning. Your CARRY is not in and of itself either RS or PC because it is not a crime to be in possession of a firearm without a license in WA.
I understand the situation perfectly. You are the one who does not. We are innocent until proven guilty
in a court of law. If being innocent until proven guilty made us immune from police investigation or arrest, it would be impossible to prove guilt in a court of law.
While you're right, that carry is not in itself RAS or PC to suspect a crime is or has been or is about to be committed, the same is not true of loaded carry in a vehicle. The OP was asked by the officer if his gun was loaded, and if he intended to board a bus. He said yes to both. If the OP did not have a CPL, he had just stated his intention to commit a misdemeanor in the near future to a police officer. This created RAS for the officer to ask the OP to display his CPL. If the OP had refused to display and/or claimed he didn't have one, and he attempted to board a bus without first unloading, that would be probable cause for the officer to make an arrest.
I see a person walk down the street OC'ing a semi-auto pistol, with mag in place...I watch the person get into the bus...I assume that it is a legal carry (and 99.999999% chance it is, as "those that are up to no good hide their weapons"), and that is also how LE is to observe that same activity also, and if they don't, they need to be trained in WA law.
It is not LE job to infringe on the privacy of the general populous because there is a 1:1,000,000 chance the person is doing something illegal.
Then you assume incorrectly, as you have just witnessed that person commit a misdemeanor. You don't know if they have a CPL or not, and the way the law is written, an observing police officer has reasonable suspicion that a crime was committed, since unloaded open carry outside of places like California is almost unheard of. This RS allows the officer the authority to ask the person boarding the bus whether they have a CPL and whether their gun is loaded. This moves to probable cause if the answers are "No" and "Yes" respectively.
Until you step onto the bus you have not committed the misdemeanor, therefore no detention is allowed, if you choose to consent to an encounter, that is your choice, but the officer has no FACT to base a detention on.
Reasonable suspicion doesn't rely on facts as much as you think it does. If facts are involved, the proper term is probable cause, not reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is sufficient to stop someone and ask questions. Refusing to answer is, of course, your right. But if you choose not to display your CPL when the officer asks, he can only assume you either do not have one or do not have it with you. If he asked you if your gun is loaded, and you answered affirmatively (or he can see it is loaded, depending on the gun type) and you board a bus without unloading it, he then has probable cause to believe a crime (misdemeanor) has been committed, and can arrest you. Even if you do have a CPL in your wallet.
Fact "he has a gun", all the rest of it is assumptions.
Fact: He has a gun. Fact: He (the OP) stated that his gun was loaded. Fact: The OP stated his intent to board a bus. Fact: This gave the officer RAS to ask the OP to display his CPL. Fact: If he did not display a CPL and did not unload before boarding the bus, the officer would have probable cause to make an arrest, since the OP would be committing a misdemeanor, as far as the officer can reasonably tell.
If the LEO has to stop and detain you and you miss your bus, he had best hope that you are in a forgiving mood or that you are actually guilty of a crime, since I woul;d be rather irate that he caused me to miss my bus. You can bet that the Sheriff or Chief would be getting an earful from me and mine on wasting both mine and the public's time.
The Sheriff/Chief's reaction to the officer would depend on whether you missed your bus because the officer was unreasonable, or whether you were unreasonable. Being a dumbass (on either side of the matter) can only hurt your position.
Vitaeus is right, they have to have RAS or PC your are engaged or about to engage in unlawful activity. An assumption you might not have your papers on you isn't good enough.
If you don't have your papers on you, then the officer has no way to know that you are exempted from the law. Since he does not know you are exempt, if he witnesses you entering a vehicle with a loaded firearm, then he has witnessed you committing a misdemeanor. And your arrest will follow. If you actually do have a CPL, that you refused to display at the officer's request, I would imagine you will be sternly lectured by a judge for wasting everyone's time and money by being a dumbass, and you will be given a citation for failing to display a CPL. In the mean time, you may well spend a few days in jail before getting lectured by that judge, especially if arrested during a weekend. Yes, you have the right to remain silent, but there sometimes comes a point where you harm yourself by doing so.
The thing about civil disobedience is that you must be willing to endure the consequences of your action. If you refuse to display your papers when required by law to do so, you only have yourself to blame for what follows.
So under your example, the officers RAS would be. "He's going to get on a bus with a loaded gun and I don't know if he has a CPL."
How is that any different from the officers from my encounter saying "I don't know if you're a felon and it's illegal for a felon to posses a gun."
An "I don't know if he's committing a crime" is not RAS.
Simple. An officer truly doesn't know if you're a felon. But if he witnesses you commit a crime, he KNOWS you are a criminal. That right there is not merely RAS, but probable cause. Not knowing if random people picked out of a street full of people are felons does not generate RAS of any kind. But the OP was approached by the officer, who did a consensual investigation, and asked about the gun and the OP's intentions. The statement that the gun is loaded, combined with RCW 9.41.050 combined with a stated intent to board a bus with the gun is more than enough to generate RAS to ask the OP to display his CPL. Refusing to display a CPL on request by a police officer is subject to a fine. Boarding the bus without unloading after claiming you don't have a CPL (or refusing to display one) is probable cause. You can explain to the judge why you felt like spending the weekend in jail instead of obeying the law.
