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Police defend armed response to report of teens carrying shotguns

Citizen

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Pointman quoted:
SNIP “Any citizen, whether adult or juvenile, who chooses to walk down a city street or run through yards in the city of Waukesha with a toy or air gun that looks like a real gun, may be reported to have a real gun. Police will investigate the call as it is reported to us."

“We encourage our citizens to use common sense…in a city setting as they may be reported to police as real firearms…. officers must be extremely cautious and proactive when responding to gun-related calls."

Well, it looks like common sense hasn't worked.

I wonder if plain old derision will:



Ooooooo. What big, bad, policemen. Oooooo. I wonder what their father's and grandfather's did with kids in the 50's, 60's, and 70's?

Investigate it as reported? Hahahahahahahahahaha. He can't even get his dispatchers and officers toconsider that a 911 report might be exaggerated or inaccurate. Hahahahahahaha. (Bet they do it with lots of other calls, though.)

Doug is right.Nobody can be against safety. Especially governmentagents who can't differentiate or apply common sense. Hahahahahahahaha.

Ooooooo. Big, bad, dangerous kids and their air-soft guns. "Lets order them out of the house, since maybe we can't go in without a search-warrant.And then we can play tough guy with them, or maybe get our name up in lights as heroes for preventing the 'next Columbine.' "

Oooooooo.

I wonder what they use for brains overthat way.
 

Pointman

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Citizen wrote:
I wonder what they use for brains overthat way.
Uh-bout 1/2 of us just listen to the Liberal evening news, 1/3 read the Liberal paper, and the other 1/3 actually have brains worth using.
:banghead:
 

smithman

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I clicked on Pointmans link. Here is what it said

"A Waukesha Police Department officer responds Saturday to the area of College and Grand avenues for a report of two teenagers seen in the area carrying guns. The two boys were detained, but not arrested, after it was determined they were carrying Airsoft toy guns and did not pose a high-level threat. "

So what if they were open carrying a real shotgun? Would they have been arrested? Honestly....what could they have been arrested for? Notice that the police didn't arrest for DC even though people were calling. But OC of a real shotgun (legal!) would likely have resulted in the same calls...and I bet they would try to arrest for DC if it was a real shotgun. Non-uniform standards, anyone?

This incident makes me even more apprehensive about OC in Waukesha...police showing up in near RIOT gear and AR15s! I think we still have some work to do here in Wisconsin. Regular OC by many will condition LEOs and the masses to accept citizens carrying guns in everyday circumstances.

Mark Twain said "
In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." This is how it is for the first of us who OC. Not everybody is ready to be a patriot. But you can bet those patriots are some of the best-studied on their issues!
 

Lammie

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I'm not going to touch that one Doug.

What my real subject is; The more I read and see of the "crap" the Waukeshaw police and other law enforcement officers pull the more astounded I am about how little many of them understand about the law. Too many seem to have the attitude that when in doubt throw them in the car and take them downtown. Let someone else straighten it out. It's too bad they braqnd everyone with a gun as a obvious criminal. They lose sight of the fact that 90% of society means no harm. Haven't the Waukeshaw police ever heard of the 'Terry Law'. Under the Terry law police have the right to momentarily stop you and ask questions. They can even do a "pat down" for weapons. Beyond that they must have probable cause that you are involved in a criminal act to throw you down on the ground and handcuff you as a conmmon criminal. The Waukesha cops are very lucky one of the youths were not injured in the incident. Under 'Terry' the youths are only required to give a correct name and address. They have rights under the fifth amendment to not say anything else. Who is going to protect us from the ones that are supposed to protect us? What in hell is the world coming to? When I was young we spent most of our weekend decked out in our double rig cap pistol sets and ran all over the neighborhood playing "cowboys and indians". I suppose if kids did that today they would be called racists and arrested for racial discrimination. Has the whole of society gone brain dead?
 

Pointman

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Lammie wrote:
The more I read and see of the "crap" the ... law enforcement officers pull the more astounded I am about how little many of them understand about the law. Too many seem to have the attitude that when in doubt throw them in the car and take them downtown.
There has to be some accountability on the prosecution side.
 

smithman

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Pointman....wow you've known people detained for a long time? I haven't but I don't doubt that it happens.....especially in MKE county. I don't think I'd OC in MKE right now. They are trying to crack down on "gun crimes" in the city too. But unfortunately for us law-abiding citizens wishing to defend ourselves they would label us as criminals for the mere act of excersing our rights!

I wonder what our founding fathers would think of the maximum 3 day detaining....I think they would spit on it the paper it was written on, then burn it in a bonfire.
 

smithman

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Also, I think in general, LEOs could give two $hits about wrongful arrest. I really do believe they have the attitude here as Lammie said "when in doubt, take em downtown and let someone else sort it out". It is a shame. And there are few people willing to fight wrongful arrests in court. They get out and count their blessings, and move on with life. To be honest, for the amount of money it costs to sue LEOs or departments these days it would hardly be feasable for the average citizen.
 

Lammie

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Pointman:

This is so far "off the wall" it isn't even worth reading. It has nothing to do with peacefull open carry. Bad guyt purposely set these guys up. By the time the cops got on the scene bad guy had the cops convinced they were dealing with a criminal situation. Then you try to connect this situation with peaceful open carry. c'mon man get real. Nearly every post you have published in someway discourages or infers that open carry isn't worth the trouble, pain and cost.
 

Malum Prohibitum

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Lammie wrote:
the more astounded I am about how little many of them understand about the law. Too many seem to have the attitude that when in doubt throw them in the car and take them downtown. Let someone else straighten it out.
Take the fight to them. That is what 42 U.S.C. 1983 is for!

Use the tools that are available to you.

Is there a state level, aggressive group fighting for the right to keep and bear arms in Wisconsin? If so, what are they doing about harassment for legal open carry? If not, why haven't you people in Wisconsin formed one?
 

Pointman

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I think it's a hard battle in WI. In this case where teens were "detained" for seemingly doing nothing wrong, the law states that causing alarm with a toy gun is all the police need to arrest someone. Someone was alarmed, and therefore the teens could be found guilty of violating the law. Where is the reasonable man test?

The law is more reasonable pertaining to real weapons, but is still highly restrictive, making it very difficult to legally open-carry in many areas.
 

smithman

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I was getting signatures this weekend at a gun show. The vast majority of gun owners I talked to didn't even know that OC is legal in WI. Some people don't think of OC as a legitimate manner of carry. Some people said they greatly appreciated what myself and others are doing...but they still couldn't sign. Others started signing the paper before I could even finish explaining.

I think OC in general is one of the most important ways we can ensure our rights continue to our children. This shows the general public that regular citizens CAN be and are armed. In addition, they will see that those who OC are not dangerous criminals waving their guns and shooting blindly at people! Then when it comes time for the state to try to take our rights, there won't be any public support for such action since everybody has been accustomed to it even more so than now. Politicians get us used to all sorts of things through incrementalism, and fortunately for the state (and unfortunately for us) people grow to accept it, and they also accept the next step the state takes.

As for the kids in Waukesha carrying their airsoft shotgun...the people have become accustomed to their police officers carrying AR-15s and other things (armed police response has become a standard operating procedure and people accept it for almost ANY situation). I don't doubt that they had to be cautious...but 6 cops with AR15s....honestly.....

We have some fundamental things in WI here to change with OC. It may not be easy for the first few of us but either a few of us may become slightly more affluent after a winning wrongful arrest/brutality lawsuit, or the state gets scared early and drops charges against people without lawsuits. Either way, we will keep our rights and the state will have to relinquish their onslaught of rights violations.
 

dragonxser

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A friend sent me your postings. I feel compelled to reply. My 15 year old son was handcuffed, taken to the Grafton police station, his airsoft rifle confiscated anda disorderly conduct ticket issued. Because he was pacing in our driveway waiting for his ride to pick him up to go airsofting. A public works employee felt 'threatened' by this teen, pacing on the street with a rifle (he was draining the hydrants a block and a half away) who then 'threw the rifle in the back of a car, and they drove away'. Yes, he tossed his 'uncased' airsoft rifle in the back seat and they drove off. I was admonished by the arresting officers that had they stopped that vehicle for a traffic violation, that the boys would have been removed from it at gun point. After columbine and VA tech, there is a NO tolerance policy going on here. But no one is being told... This information needs to be publicized to the communities. If kids are going to be treated as criminals for having toy guns in public, then someone needs to write up the 'rules' and publish it so us parents don't see our children shot by a nervous police officer, scared of a kid wearing camo or bdu's. Just my piece. I think he should have known better, but this... is over the top.
 

Pointman

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Kind of sounds like living in the U.K., where guns are basically outlawed, and any idea of a gun gets you arrested.

Snipped from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=513875&in_page_id=1770

Man arrested at gunpoint after police mistake his MP3 player for a gun

Darren Nixon, 28 years-oldand a mechanic for Olympus Engineering who has no previous convictions, had finished work at midday on Saturday (Jan 26), turned on his black 4GB Phillips MP3 player and started walking to get the bus home.

"The police found me on CCTV and followed me. I got on the bus and the police followed. I was listening to my music so I didn't really notice all the cars behind the bus." "I got off and started walking home. I saw this cop gesture at me and at first I couldn't hear what he was saying. I turned the music off and they were telling me to put my hands up in the air." "As I got closer I could see that two of the cops had guns. There were two police dogs there as well. I was searched at the scene then hauled off to the station and interviewed." He was then swabbed for a DNA sample, had his mugshot taken and was fingerprinted.

"I was really shocked when I saw the guns. They were pointing them right at me. It was a pretty scary experience. I had no idea what was going on." "I wasn't happy at all about it. I didn't even really get a proper apology from the police." "They just dropped me off at home and said a quick 'sorry for any inconvenience', and that was all I got from them, which I thought was pretty out of order." "It happened really near to where I live, so anyone could have seen me getting arrested - it's a stain on my character." "It was unreal - I had a completely clean record before this and have always been a law-abiding citizen."

A spokesperson for Staffordshire Police said: "We received a report from a member of the public who had seen a male in the area who had appeared to pull a hand gun from a jacket pocket, grip it with both hands and aim it towards something." "An operation was put in place and a man matching the description was detained." "No weapon was found on him at the time but he was taken into custody on suspicion while the surrounding area where he had been was searched." "These searches proved negative, so the man was released and taken home, as no further action was required." "The description was extremely good and if that's the report we get we have to act quickly."

DarrenNixonNTI_468x353.jpg



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=455037&in_page_id=1770

Armed police raid home after mistaking Lara Croft dummy for gunman

When police spotted a gun-wielding suspect lurking in the shadows of a suburban front room, their response was swift. Armed officers burst into the house, shouted at the owner to lie on the floor, and ordered him to surrender his weapon. But efficiency turned to embarrassment when the "gunman" turned out to be a life-sized model of the video game character Lara Croft, complete with trademark outsized pistols.

Computer shop owner David Williams, 42, had taken the dummy home to put it up for sale on the auction site eBay. As the source of the confusion dawned on all concerned, it might have been the moment for an apology from the police. Instead, however, Mr Williams was taken to the cells and held for more than 13 hours before being released. He is now on bail for a suspected firearms offence, and Lara Croft remains impounded as evidence.

laracroft1RB1505_228x388.jpg


At least they know how to use the English language, unlike Amerikans:

Snipped from: http://airsoftgun.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_archive.html

Fake Guns In School Raise Serious Concerns

SAN DIEGO, CA-- One of the newest trends on school campuses is also one of the most dangerous, 10News reported.

It was about noon in the boys' locker room at Kroc Middle School when an eighth-grader brought an airsoft gun to school and aimed it at a seventh-grader. "He shot one other student, (it) hit him in the arm (and) left a little red welt," said Vice Principal Doug Coffey. "It wasn't a serious injury, but there's zero tolerance on school grounds and punishment is swift[.] You will be suspended five days (and) recommended for expulsion. Even if you touch it (or) bring it for fun. All we want at school is school supplies."

"There's the kid who brings (a) gun (and) risks being shot by police. There's the kid who gets injured (and) goes home and gets (a) gun and comes back. Third, the kid who's asked to hold a gun as a favor," said Katherine Nakamura, with the San Diego School Board.

About a year ago, Scripps Ranch High School was locked down briefly when a student was reported to have a submachine gun in his backpack. It was an airsoft -- a toy that one boy was going to sell to the other for $150. They were two good students with good records, but they were led away in handcuffs, 10News reported. That was one of 88 such incidents in the past year. Most lead to expulsion.

The fake guns are easy to acquire. The are sold at many stores and the Internet. 10News is told they have even been sold from the back of an ice cream truck in San Diego. They are illegal for under anyone under 18 in public places and are dangerous for anyone in the wrong situation[, even though they are just kids toys--something found across America for decades].
 

smithman

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Some people's fear of guns is ridiculous. I was talking to my neighbor today and he mentioned that my OC one afternoon caused quite a stir around my block once word got around...one guy apparantly said something to the effect of "well I hope my kids are safe". I joked to my neighbor "Yes, because I am constantly taking my pistol out of its holster, handling it alot, and waving it in the air, and pointing it at other houses".

There are people like this everywhere. They are not used to seeing people carry guns in Wisconsin, just cops. They don't understand that anybody who carries a gun is responsible for their actions with that gun. And they also don't realize that someone who shoots you will just do it, rather than go about their merry business openly carrying in a holster.

As the OC movement gains traction everyday across the country, these sheep will get used to it. But guess what, at least our rights don't depend on them liking it, since that would not be a right at all.
 

Pointman

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On a related note:

String Of Pellet Gun Shootings Damage Vehicles
May 27, 2008
http://www.wisn.com/news/16407174/detail.html

Waukesha police are investigating a string of BB or pellet gun shootings.

Investigators have received at least 15 complaints of windows being vandalized in the last 12 days, with most of the damage done to cars.

The shootings are happening in random spots all over the city. A small white Mazda was seen leaving the scene of one shooting, with the girls inside the vehicle throwing gang signs.
 

smithman

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Pointman wrote:
On a related note:

String Of Pellet Gun Shootings Damage Vehicles
May 27, 2008
http://www.wisn.com/news/16407174/detail.html

Waukesha police are investigating a string of BB or pellet gun shootings.

Investigators have received at least 15 complaints of windows being vandalized in the last 12 days, with most of the damage done to cars.

The shootings are happening in random spots all over the city. A small white Mazda was seen leaving the scene of one shooting, with the girls inside the vehicle throwing gang signs.
I saw this on the news. Great I said...more trouble with people in Waukesha. Luckily for the perps (they will probably be caught) a BB gun is not considered a firearm since it does not expel a bullet by force of explosives.

Random vandalism exists, same as random street crime. No number of cops can stop all of this stuff all the time. People say every time some kind of robbery/vandalism happens "If there was a cop standing on the street corner this wouldn't have happened". Well to start with maybe that is not a good image for america, cops at every intersection. People must take responsibility for their own safety and the safety and security of their property and family. I consider knowing how to handle a gun a fundamental skill. I consider carrying a gun a social responsibility. Too bad "the state" in general (especially WI) doesn't like people who can defend themselves.
 
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