• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Port's "rules" are, in fact, "laws".

shakul

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
69
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
imported post

jddssc121 wrote:
While we understand your view that General Rule 16.a. is not “lawful,” we disagree with that view. General Rule 16.a is one of the conditions imposed for visiting the airport

It's not that we don't "view" it as lawful it's that RCW 9.41.290 State preemption. (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.290) says that it's ILEGAL for anyone except for the State to make laws or regulations regarding fire-arms in any publicly/state owned building which is not restricted by either Federal/State law.

Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
 

olypendrew

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
295
Location
Port Angeles, Washington, USA
imported post

It seems to me, without having really researched it, that these rules which prohibit the possession of guns at the airport, if they are broad enough to potentially ensnare someone who is travelling out of state with guns, are preempted not only by WA's preemption statute, but also by the Supremacy Clause of the US Constitution. The feds have already addressed the area of how one travels through airports with guns, and the states, cities, ports, whatever have no business regulating in this area of interstate commerce.

FOPA might also come into play.

Any thoughts on this as a way to challenge the enforcement of this rule?
 

jddssc121

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
282
Location
, ,
imported post

sent this back to the Port

Mr. Bintinger,

Thank you for the information. I appreciate your time and patience with my questions.
From your previous email I understand you will not be providing greater clarity surrounding the Port’s firearm rule(s). While disappointing, I will respect your office’s wishes and I will not continue to send further questions. I do appreciate your offer of keeping me informed if the Port changes its rules; I would also respectfully request that you share your findings after reviewing the AG’s opinion, even if your office elects to change nothing. I hope that is possible.

As your office reviews its firearms rules in light of the AG’s published opinion, I would recommend also researching the application of RCW 9A.52.070 thru 090 for the Port’s firearm rule violations. This is also addressed in the AG’s opinion. The relevant section starts on page 5 of original document from the AG. I would also request that your office and the Port Police review RCW 9A.36.070 (emphasis added). “A person is guilty of coercion if by use of a threat he compels or induces a person to engage in conduct which the latter has a legal right to abstain from, or to abstain from conduct which he has a legal right to engage in”. A criminal trespass incident could “subject the person threatened or any other person to physical confinement or restraint”, which for the purposes of RCW 9A.36.070, could be construed as a threat as defined in RCW 9A.04.110 . Lastly, an incident involving deprivation of rights could also fall under 42 U.S.C. 1983.

Thank you again for your time. I look forward to receiving your office’s findings in the future.

Respectfully,
 

jddssc121

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
282
Location
, ,
imported post

Folks, I am embarrassed. I filled out a FOIA request to the port (got nothing interesting, everything was covered under attorney/client as I expected). I did however see some emails from other folks to the Port with the same questions as I had.

Sadly, a few people decided they'd just drop F bombs at the Port in their emails. Now i have no idea if it was someone from Opencarry.org, but based on the timing, i would bet a few bucks on it.....

Please, please be respectful. All cursing like a teenager does is make us ALL look like a bunch of low life idiots. If you can't keep a respectful tone, even when disagreeing...do us all a favor, and don't email them....
 

diesel556

Lone Star Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Messages
714
Location
Seattle-ish, Washington, USA
imported post

jddssc121 wrote:
Folks, I am embarrassed. I filled out a FOIA request to the port (got nothing interesting, everything was covered under attorney/client as I expected). I did however see some emails from other folks to the Port with the same questions as I had.

Sadly, a few people decided they'd just drop F bombs at the Port in their emails. Now i have now idea if it was someone from Opencarry.org, but based on the timing, i would bet a few bucks on it.....

Please, please be respectful. All cursing like a teenager does is make us ALL look like a bunch of low life idiots. If you can't keep a respectful tone, even when disagreeing...do us all a favor, and don't email them....
Nice... :(
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
imported post

No wonder they are not willing to budge on this. I wouldn't either. "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them."

If I was a bureaucrat and some idiot wrote me a profane letter, my attitude would be "Screw you. We will see you in court."
 

jddssc121

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
282
Location
, ,
imported post

joeroket wrote:
Does the port enjoy attorney client privileges? Isn't the attorney a public employee as well when hired by a public entity?
they're covered under 42.56.290
 

partyncwby

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
60
Location
Edwall, Washington, USA
imported post

Phssthpok wrote:
sempercarry wrote:
Bump.....what ever happened with this?

I can't recall where, or from whom, but I believe I was told that it's gone Federal (rights lawsuit) and cards are being played close to the chest for strategic/tactical reasons.

I've seen random postings from Mainsail over the past few months, so I'm pretty sure he's not in jail or anything.When all is said and done I'm sure we will get the full story.

Patience Grasshoppah....
 

jddssc121

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
282
Location
, ,
imported post

I went out and got some advice from an unnamed State employee... good honest, objective opinion... Hopefully the Seattle case turns out well....


Thank you for your patience as we’ve researched this matter. I’ve tried to collect as much information as possible in order to give you the most thorough response to your questions and concerns over the course of our correspondence.

Based on RCW 14.08.010 (attached), “municipality” is defined to mean in part any port district. Therefore, the Port of Seattle does fit the description of a municipality.

A WA Supreme Court case suggests that the rule enacted by the Port of Seattle, prohibiting weapons in all areas of the airport, is not in violation of WA’s firearms laws. The WA State Supreme Court case, Pacific Northwest Shooting Association v. City of Sequim, 158 Wn.2d 342; 144 P.3d 276 (2006) is attached.
The specific language that will be of interest to you can be found on page 7, under paragraph 31 and 32 (P31 and P32). It is under these paragraphs where the court explains that a municipality, like a private property owner, may impose conditions related to firearms for the use of its property in order to protect its property interests. If the Court were to apply this interpretation, it might find that the Port of Seattle has not violated RCW 9.41.290 (the state firearm preemption statute) by enacting a rule prohibiting firearms in all areas of the airport on the grounds that in operating the airport, the Port of Seattle is acting in a proprietary capacity; it is operating the airport for the private advantage of a municipality; the municipality being the Port of Seattle. When acting in a proprietary capacity, a municipality, like a private property owner, may impose conditions related to firearms for the use of its property in order to protect its property interests.

Regarding the AG opinion concerning the authority of cities to regulate the possession of firearms on city property, the attorney who wrote the opinion explained that “although the language of RCW 9.41.290 (the state firearm preemption statute) is broad, it does not preempt all city authority with respect to firearms.” The attorney then refers to the case I cited above, Pacific Northwest Shooting Association v. Sequim, and another firearms case decided by the WA Supreme Court, Cherry v. Seattle (116 Wn.2d 794, 808 P.2d 746 (1991), and explains that “under Cherry and Pacific Northwest Shooting Park, RCW 9.41.290 does not preempt a city’s ability to impose conditions when it is acting in a private capacity.” This language can be found on pages 3 -4 of the AG opinion.

Although the WA Supreme Court has ruled that municipalities may impose conditions related to firearms for the use of its property in order to protect its property interests (Pacific Northwest Shooting Association v. Sequim), in upholding these conditions under the state firearms preemption clause, the Court has also explained that the conditions “were not laws or regulations of application to the general public.” (Pacific Northwest Shooting Association v. Sequim). Because the rule enacted by the Port of Seattle, prohibiting firearms on the airport applies to the general public, it is possible that a court might find the rule violates the state firearms preemption statute.

We do still have the option of requesting an AG opinion on this matter; however, there may be some reasons not to pursue this avenue. If the AG opinion does find issue with the Port of Seattle’s rule in regard to prohibiting firearms in all areas of the airport it would still likely be a matter to be decided in the courts should a specific case arise. Were you to get a favorable AG opinion and act upon it, you might still find yourself in court.

Asking for an AG opinion on this issue would serve to highlight this gray area and might well come to the attention of the Legislature. In light of the current makeup of Washington’s Legislature, I might be concerned that the likely outcome would be legislation that is unfavorable to your position.

Most advocates of a particular position wait for an ideal test case: one that is likely to result in a ruling in their favor. It is my understanding that the City of Seattle is about to pass a firearm restriction on city park property. It is [only] my personal opinion that it might be better to wait and ask for an AG opinion on a rule such as this, which would not have the same security undertones that a challenge to the Port Authority's rule does have. An opinion and/or court decision regarding the City's rule restricting the right to bear arms in a city park however, might then have ramifications to the Port's constitutional authority to impose such a restriction.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
imported post

jddssc121 wrote:
I went out and got some advice from an unnamed State employee... good honest, objective opinion... Hopefully the Seattle case turns out well....


Thank you for your patience as we’ve researched this matter. I’ve tried to collect as much information as possible in order to give you the most thorough response to your questions and concerns over the course of our correspondence.

Based on RCW 14.08.010 (attached), “municipality” is defined to mean in part any port district. Therefore, the Port of Seattle does fit the description of a municipality.

A WA Supreme Court case suggests that the rule enacted by the Port of Seattle, prohibiting weapons in all areas of the airport, is not in violation of WA’s firearms laws. The WA State Supreme Court case, Pacific Northwest Shooting Association v. City of Sequim, 158 Wn.2d 342; 144 P.3d 276 (2006) is attached.
The specific language that will be of interest to you can be found on page 7, under paragraph 31 and 32 (P31 and P32). It is under these paragraphs where the court explains that a municipality, like a private property owner, may impose conditions related to firearms for the use of its property in order to protect its property interests. If the Court were to apply this interpretation, it might find that the Port of Seattle has not violated RCW 9.41.290 (the state firearm preemption statute) by enacting a rule prohibiting firearms in all areas of the airport on the grounds that in operating the airport, the Port of Seattle is acting in a proprietary capacity; it is operating the airport for the private advantage of a municipality; the municipality being the Port of Seattle. When acting in a proprietary capacity, a municipality, like a private property owner, may impose conditions related to firearms for the use of its property in order to protect its property interests.

Regarding the AG opinion concerning the authority of cities to regulate the possession of firearms on city property, the attorney who wrote the opinion explained that “although the language of RCW 9.41.290 (the state firearm preemption statute) is broad, it does not preempt all city authority with respect to firearms.” The attorney then refers to the case I cited above, Pacific Northwest Shooting Association v. Sequim, and another firearms case decided by the WA Supreme Court, Cherry v. Seattle (116 Wn.2d 794, 808 P.2d 746 (1991), and explains that “under Cherry and Pacific Northwest Shooting Park, RCW 9.41.290 does not preempt a city’s ability to impose conditions when it is acting in a private capacity.” This language can be found on pages 3 -4 of the AG opinion.

Although the WA Supreme Court has ruled that municipalities may impose conditions related to firearms for the use of its property in order to protect its property interests (Pacific Northwest Shooting Association v. Sequim), in upholding these conditions under the state firearms preemption clause, the Court has also explained that the conditions “were not laws or regulations of application to the general public.” (Pacific Northwest Shooting Association v. Sequim). Because the rule enacted by the Port of Seattle, prohibiting firearms on the airport applies to the general public, it is possible that a court might find the rule violates the state firearms preemption statute.

We do still have the option of requesting an AG opinion on this matter; however, there may be some reasons not to pursue this avenue. If the AG opinion does find issue with the Port of Seattle’s rule in regard to prohibiting firearms in all areas of the airport it would still likely be a matter to be decided in the courts should a specific case arise. Were you to get a favorable AG opinion and act upon it, you might still find yourself in court.

Asking for an AG opinion on this issue would serve to highlight this gray area and might well come to the attention of the Legislature. In light of the current makeup of Washington’s Legislature, I might be concerned that the likely outcome would be legislation that is unfavorable to your position.

Most advocates of a particular position wait for an ideal test case: one that is likely to result in a ruling in their favor. It is my understanding that the City of Seattle is about to pass a firearm restriction on city park property. It is [only] my personal opinion that it might be better to wait and ask for an AG opinion on a rule such as this, which would not have the same security undertones that a challenge to the Port Authority's rule does have. An opinion and/or court decision regarding the City's rule restricting the right to bear arms in a city park however, might then have ramifications to the Port's constitutional authority to impose such a restriction.
Good, honest, yet totally incorrect and reading only a very small subset of the Sequim case. In short: the Sequim case specifically points out that it allows that law to be upheld because it applies to someone leasing a public place for private use in such a manner that the city acts as a private land lessor, and because the restriction DOES NOT APPLY TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC.
 

joeroket

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,339
Location
Everett, Washington, USA
imported post

My thoughts exactly Tawnos. Also the Cherry case dealt with an area of a fire department that was not open to the general public so that case is not really a valid argument either.
 

jddssc121

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
282
Location
, ,
imported post

joeroket wrote:
My thoughts exactly Tawnos. Also the Cherry case dealt with an area of a fire department that was not open to the general public so that case is not really a valid argument either.

i didn't take that section to be their interpretation, but rather a guess at how the courts "might" look at it. (our courts aren't always logical)

The last sections are really what i was referring to as a good objective piece. Secure a temp victory w/ an AG opinion on the Port, only to get some gun grabbers attention in the state legislature screaming 9-11 safety and re-vamping 9.41.300 to exclude the whole airport. Win the battle, lose the war..... Getting the pending Seattle case (and hopefully the existing claim against the Port who charged one of our members) in our favor, would then get us some extra legal weight/precedence to throw behind a new AG request specific to the Port.
2 relevant AG opinions + a successful Seattle case + a successful Port case would be water tight as a ducks butt
 

joeroket

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,339
Location
Everett, Washington, USA
imported post

jddssc121 wrote:
joeroket wrote:
My thoughts exactly Tawnos. Also the Cherry case dealt with an area of a fire department that was not open to the general public so that case is not really a valid argument either.

i didn't take that section to be their interpretation, but rather a guess at how the courts "might" look at it. (our courts aren't always logical)

The last sections are really what i was referring to as a good objective piece. Secure a temp victory w/ an AG opinion on the Port, only to get some gun grabbers attention in the state legislature screaming 9-11 safety and re-vamping 9.41.300 to exclude the whole airport. Win the battle, lose the war..... Getting the pending Seattle case (and hopefully the existing claim against the Port who charged one of our members) in our favor, would then get us some extra legal weight/precedence to throw behind a new AG request specific to the Port.
2 relevant AG opinions + a successful Seattle case + a successful Port case would be water tight as a ducks butt

Regardless which route is taken either one is going to get the attention of the lawmakers and could result in the revising of .300 to exclude the entire airport. It makes no difference if a court finds it or the AG says it the legislature still has the option of changing the law.
 

Gray Peterson

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
2,236
Location
Lynnwood, Washington, USA
imported post

If we win the court case in Seattle in King County Superior Court, it would have countywide effect and effect Port of Seattle.

Let's keep ourselves out of the courtroom against Port of Seattle.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
imported post

The reasoning in this mystery opinion is precisely why I stopped bugging The Port, in favor of waiting out the Seattle case.

Fight the right battle, win the whole war.
 

FMCDH

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
2,037
Location
St. Louis, MO
imported post

Gray Peterson wrote:
If we win the court case in Seattle in King County Superior Court, it would have countywide effect and effect Port of Seattle.

Let's keep ourselves out of the courtroom against Port of Seattle.
IF?? :shock:

Common Gray, the judge would have to be on the take to not rule in the peoples favor. :p
 
Top