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"Reasonable suspicion" to stop

Jared

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
892
Location
Michigan, USA
Folks,

Can we get on the same page for terminology.

You do not need a CPL to carry openly in a pistol free zone. Nothing is needed to do so.

You do need a CPL or ANY other state concealed carry license to carry ANY FIREARM in a firearm free zone.

Not all prohibited places match from pistol free zones and from firearm free zones.

A permit holder needs a carry permit to carry even a long Arm in a firearm free zone, where anyone can carry a concealed or unconcealed longarm in a pistol free zone withou a license.

Banks and theaters are not in pistol free zones, but they are in firearm free zones.

See the difference.
 

autosurgeon

Regular Member
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Sep 29, 2008
Messages
3,831
Location
Lawrence, Michigan, United States
Folks,

Can we get on the same page for terminology.

You do not need a CPL to carry openly in a pistol free zone. Nothing is needed to do so.

You do need a CPL or ANY other state concealed carry license to carry ANY FIREARM in a firearm free zone.

Not all prohibited places match from pistol free zones and from firearm free zones.

A permit holder needs a carry permit to carry even a long Arm in a firearm free zone, where anyone can carry a concealed or unconcealed longarm in a pistol free zone withou a license.

Banks and theaters are not in pistol free zones, but they are in firearm free zones.

See the difference.

Methinks you are going to confuse more folks.... It would be better to quote the MCL numbers than to play this game of semantics about PFZ and Firearm free zones..

IMOP
 

Michigander

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Mulligan's Valley
You do need a CPL or ANY other state concealed carry license to carry ANY FIREARM in a firearm free zone.

That is questionable because of a tyrant named Frank J Kelly who was AG before Jennifer Granholm. He wrote many anti gun opinions such as the machine gun ban reversed by Mike Cox, and the one that calls your statement into question is #6798.

I contacted Dean Greenblatt, and even he isn't sure and won't take a side on whether or not it's a legal thing for a Michigan resident to OC in a CEZ under an out of state license to carry concealed. The opinion cites the power of the gun boards, and how it would be an absurd consequence for them to be bypassed by simply getting out of state licenses, and therefore that they aren't valid for the purpose of CCing. But since we're talking about OCing, and now that we've got shall issue and a whole lot of reciprocity, it's debatable at best that this piece of anti gun trash opinion is still valid. But it's something to be aware of.


Opinion No. 6798

May 16, 1994

CONCEALED WEAPON LICENSE:

Michigan resident with a concealed weapon license acquired from another state

A Michigan resident may not carry a concealed pistol in Michigan if the resident has only acquired a license to carry a concealed pistol from another state.

Honorable David Jaye

State Representative

The Capitol

Lansing, MI

You have asked whether a Michigan resident may carry a concealed pistol in Michigan if the resident has only acquired a license to carry a concealed pistol from another state.

MCL 28.432a; MSA 28.98(1), provides:

Section 6 [requiring a concealed weapon license to carry a concealed pistol] does not apply to:



(f) A person licensed to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.

Similarly, MCL 750.231a; MSA 28.428(1), states:

(1) Section 227 [prohibiting carrying a concealed pistol without a license] does not apply to any of the following:

(a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state except where the pistol is carried in non-conformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

The above-quoted statutory provisions clearly apply to a resident of another state that obtains a license to carry a concealed pistol in that state and then comes into the State of Michigan. The question is whether the exemption is also applicable to a Michigan resident that obtains a license to carry a concealed pistol from another state and, on that basis, claims an exemption from the requirements of Michigan's concealed weapon laws.

In section 6 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.426; MSA 28.93, the Legislature has established a comprehensive procedure for determining whether a Michigan resident should be issued a license to carry a pistol concealed on the person or in a vehicle operated or occupied by the applicant. Subsection (1) of section 6 provides:

The prosecuting attorney, the sheriff, and the director of the department of state police, or their respective authorized deputies, shall constitute boards exclusively authorized to issue a license to an applicant residing within their respective counties, to carry a pistol concealed on the person and to carry a pistol, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the applicant. The county clerk of each county shall be clerk of the licensing board, which board shall be known as the concealed weapon licensing board. A license to carry a pistol concealed on the person or to carry a pistol, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person applying for the license, shall not be granted to a person unless the person is 18 years of age or older, is a citizen of the United States, and has resided in this state 6 months or more. A license shall not be issued unless it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to his or her person or property, or has other proper reasons, and is a suitable person to be licensed. A license shall not be issued to a person who was convicted of a felony or confined for a felony conviction in this state or elsewhere during the 8-year period immediately preceding the date of the application or was adjudged insane unless the person was restored to sanity and so declared by court order. [ Emphasis added.]

Subsection (4) requires fingerprinting the applicant and sending the fingerprints to the Michigan Department of State Police and the Federal Bureau of Investigation to ascertain whether there has been a felony conviction or confinement for a felony conviction within the 8-year period. Subsection (5) provides that the concealed pistol license may be restricted, on the face of the license, consistent with the reasons the license was issued. Under subsection (6), a concealed pistol license may not be issued for more than three years and a renewal may not be granted unless a new application is filed.

Michigan's appellate courts have consistently recognized that the Legislature has imposed comprehensive requirements an applicant must meet to obtain a concealed pistol license from a county gun board. In People v McFadden, 31 MichApp 512, 516; 188 NW2d 141 (1971), the court stated:

Pursuant to constitutional requirements, the statute enumerates explicit criteria to guide the concealed weapon licensing board in processing applications. Thus, any suggestion that absence of standards creates a potential for arbitrary action lacks merit.

Subsequently, in Hanselman v Wayne County Weapon Bd, 419 Mich 168, 189; 351 NW2d 544 (1984), the Supreme Court declared:

Each concealed weapon licensing board must determine "proper reason" and "suitability" based upon consideration of local needs and an exercise of its discretion. As the Court of Appeals recognized in Bay County Concealed Weapons Licensing Board v Gasta, 96 MichApp 784, 789-791; 293 NW2d 707 (1980), the Legislature intends the concealed weapon licensing boards to apply local and discretionary standards in deciding whether to grant an applicant a concealed weapon license:

"The licensing board is comprised of one representative each from the County Prosecutor's Office, the State Police, and the County Sheriff's Department. By creating a board composed of law enforcement officials and giving it the exclusive authority to issue, deny and revoke permits for concealed weapons, the Legislature has insured that an individual's perceived need to carry a concealed weapon will be evaluated in light of the experience and knowledge of community needs possessed by these local officials. The potential danger which a concealed weapon poses to the unsuspecting public justifies that licensing procedures be entrusted to a board comprised of law enforcement officials.



"In view of the inherent potential danger which accompanies the issuance of a permit to carry a concealed weapon, the licensing board as composed reflects the Legislature's intent that power to issue and revoke such [concealed weapon] licenses is properly placed with those professionals most able to assess community needs and problems in this area." [ Emphasis added.]

There are many rules for interpreting statutes. The ultimate goal of all such rules is to ascertain and implement the legislative intent, even if the intent might appear in conflict with the literal language of the statute. People v Stoudemire, 429 Mich 262, 266; 414 NW2d 693 (1987). Also, statutes must be interpreted to avoid absurd consequences. Webster v Rotary Electric Steel Co, 321 Mich 526, 531; 33 NW2d 69 (1948).

Here, the Legislature has created local gun boards with the exclusive authority to issue concealed pistol licenses. The Legislature has imposed specific statutory requirements applicants must meet to obtain these licenses. In addition, whether applicants have good reasons and are suitable persons to be licensed is within the sound discretion of a board of local professionals who apply their knowledge of community needs and problems in evaluating applications. It is inconceivable that the Legislature, after crafting these statutory requirements for obtaining a concealed pistol license, intended to permit Michigan residents to avoid them by obtaining a concealed pistol license in another state that may not impose many of the Michigan requirements. That construction of the statute would result in the absurd consequence that a Michigan resident could avoid the legislatively imposed requirements for obtaining a concealed pistol license in Michigan by obtaining that type of license in another state without having to meet the Michigan requirements. Thus, it must be concluded that a Michigan resident with a concealed pistol license obtained in another state may not carry a concealed pistol in Michigan unless the resident first obtains a concealed pistol license in Michigan by meeting the requirements for obtaining the license imposed by Michigan law.

It is my opinion, therefore, that a Michigan resident may not carry a concealed pistol in Michigan if the resident has only acquired a license to carry a concealed pistol from another state.

Frank J. Kelley

Attorney General
 
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Jared

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
892
Location
Michigan, USA
Methinks you are going to confuse more folks.... It would be better to quote the MCL numbers than to play this game of semantics about PFZ and Firearm free zones..

IMOP

It's not bad information. It's accurately covering the law.

What people are saying will eventually get someone jammed up.

A bank is not a pistol free zone, yet if one open carries without a CPL in a bank they are committing a crime.

They are different, it's not semantics... people need to read the law, if they are too dumb and confused to do so then that is their problem. What is the point of explaining the law if it's not going to be explained correctly?

Pistol Free Zones = areas that ONLY apply to CONCEALED PISTOLS and that ONLY apply to CPL HOLDERS

Firearm Free Zones = Areas that apply to ALL Firearms POSSESSED or CARRIED in ANY MANNER (a car trunk may count) of any type and do NOT apply to anyone licensed to conceal carry by any state.

Simple explanation would go something like this

"One may openly carry a firearm in a pistol free zone and one's status as a CPL holder exempts them from what is known as Firearm Free Zones. Those who open carry without a CPL need to be aware of the Firearm Free Zones as they differ from pistol free zones."
 
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Jared

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
892
Location
Michigan, USA
That is questionable because of a tyrant named Frank J Kelly who was AG before Jennifer Granholm. He wrote many anti gun opinions such as the machine gun ban reversed by Mike Cox, and the one that calls your statement into question is #6798.

I understand that; however, an AG opinion is not law, it can not be used to change a law, and it does not nullify existing law.

His AG opinion did not address Firearm Free Zones, it addressed the old recognition law.
When a CPL was may-issue, many people carried on out of state permits. Kelly tried to stop this practice. It doesn't matter anymore because the legislature rewrote the recognition law as we all know. Secondly, the may-issue" wording in the CPL statute was eliminated years after Kelly's opinion came out... So both points are now moot as a matter of law due to the legislature rewriting the law.

Firearm Free Zones are clearly worded and so are the exceptions. They do not have any type of "may-issue" exceptions or gun boards that decide who is exempt. It clearly states that anyone licensed to carry from any state is exempt. Any state means any state. Nothing is vague.

If that can not be followed then the rule of law means nothing because words no longer mean anything.
 

autosurgeon

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Sep 29, 2008
Messages
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Location
Lawrence, Michigan, United States
It's not bad information. It's accurately covering the law.

What people are saying will eventually get someone jammed up.

A bank is not a pistol free zone, yet if one open carries without a CPL in a bank they are committing a crime.

They are different, it's not semantics... people need to read the law, if they are too dumb and confused to do so then that is their problem. What is the point of explaining the law if it's not going to be explained correctly?

Pistol Free Zones = areas that ONLY apply to CONCEALED PISTOLS and that ONLY apply to CPL HOLDERS

Firearm Free Zones = Areas that apply to ALL Firearms POSSESSED or CARRIED in ANY MANNER (a car trunk may count) of any type and do NOT apply to anyone licensed to conceal carry by any state.

Simple explanation would go something like this

"One may openly carry a firearm in a pistol free zone and one's status as a CPL holder exempts them from what is known as Firearm Free Zones. Those who open carry without a CPL need to be aware of the Firearm Free Zones as they differ from pistol free zones."


I have never looked at it like that... but good point. This post is much clearer on what your point is thank you.
 
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DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
It's not bad information. It's accurately covering the law.

What people are saying will eventually get someone jammed up.

A bank is not a pistol free zone, yet if one open carries without a CPL in a bank they are committing a crime.

They are different, it's not semantics... people need to read the law, if they are too dumb and confused to do so then that is their problem. What is the point of explaining the law if it's not going to be explained correctly?

Pistol Free Zones = areas that ONLY apply to CONCEALED PISTOLS and that ONLY apply to CPL HOLDERS

Firearm Free Zones = Areas that apply to ALL Firearms POSSESSED or CARRIED in ANY MANNER (a car trunk may count) of any type and do NOT apply to anyone licensed to conceal carry by any state.

Simple explanation would go something like this

"One may openly carry a firearm in a pistol free zone and one's status as a CPL holder exempts them from what is known as Firearm Free Zones. Those who open carry without a CPL need to be aware of the Firearm Free Zones as they differ from pistol free zones."

This is just my opinion so take it for what it's worth:

I agree in theory to the proposition that one needs to be aware of the difference between the two zones as defined by law. However, I have not seen the words "Pistol Free Zone" nor "Firearm Free Zone" in the law; I have seen these words in interpretations of the law, but not the law itself.
In opinion 7113, AG Granholm termed these two zones 1. gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; 2. gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code. I think that these terms would be the most clear way to differentiate...however cumbersome that they are.

IMHO, any mention of "zones" which are not combined with explicit reference to the section of the law which establishes the zones in question has the potential to confuse others.


You also bring up the question of an out-of-state concealed weapons permits. I would argue that when the legislature changed the reciprocity portion of the law from a "permit from any state" to the requirement of residency, they could have also changed the wording elsewhere in the statute to reflect this change, too. However, they did not.
Therefore, I would argue that a person living in Michigan could get an out-of-state permit and carry openly in the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code. Because the law demands that in order to conceal that a permit from another state be a resident permit, I think it would be pushing the envelope for a person living (note I have not said "resident") to carry concealed on a non-resident permit. But that is an issue for a court to decide... on each individual case, as there is no clear method to show residency in Michigan, rather it is a combination of factors.

Here is an issue, though. The notion of residency is determined by each individual state. Some states require a driver's license and other items evidencing residency, some demand just a signed affidavit at a government office, some a home address, etc. Since Michigan could arguably only determine who is a resident of Michigan, I think an out-of-state resident carrying concealed on another state's permit (if that state's permit did not denote "non-resident") would be legal... Michigan does not have the right to determine who is a resident of another state just as other states have no right to determine who is a Michigan resident. Individual states are given the power to decide who is a resident of their state.

Therefore I think that an argument could be made that, if a person living in Wisconsin carried concealed on another state's permit while visiting Michigan, when the permit itself does not denote "resident" or "non resident", would be legal. If the same resident carried concealed on a permit that said "Non-Resident", it would be illegal because the state who gave them the permit has apparently determined that the person with such a permit is in fact a "non-resident".
 

Taurus850CIA

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Jun 15, 2008
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, Michigan, USA
Dr. Todd, I agree with your assessment, and have for some time. However, I think Michigander has a point, in that if challenged and taken up through the levels, it absolutely would not stand up to scrutiny as applied against the 2nd and 4th amendments. However, since I can't afford to be Heller or McDonald, I would probably provide my CPL while OC'ing in a PFZ.
 

Jared

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Jul 8, 2006
Messages
892
Location
Michigan, USA
This is just my opinion so take it for what it's worth:

However, I have not seen the words "Pistol Free Zone" nor "Firearm Free Zone" in the law; I have seen these words in interpretations of the law, but not the law itself.

If you read the law, you will see that they are both uniquely identified in their title under the MCL.

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(5a...g.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-234d

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(sg...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425o

Pistol Free Zones and Firearm Free Zones very accurately define these two zones. They are uniquely different and one was passed 80 years before the other one.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
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Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
If you read the law, you will see that they are both uniquely identified in their title under the MCL.

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(5a...g.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-234d

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(sg...eg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-425o

Pistol Free Zones and Firearm Free Zones very accurately define these two zones. They are uniquely different and one was passed 80 years before the other one.


Oh... I need to read the law :eek:
Ummm, I did. I am not arguing that there aren't 2 different zones, just that, 1). The words "Pistol Free Zone" and "Firearm Free Zone" is never used and, 2). The terms "Pistol" and "Firearm" are NOT mutually exclusive. I believe that the way that the way the AG termed them above is clearer, that is all I am saying. If you had used the terms as listed in THE LAW, I would have had no argument.
 
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DrTodd

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Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Dr. Todd, I agree with your assessment, and have for some time. However, I think Michigander has a point, in that if challenged and taken up through the levels, it absolutely would not stand up to scrutiny as applied against the 2nd and 4th amendments. However, since I can't afford to be Heller or McDonald, I would probably provide my CPL while OC'ing in a PFZ.

Perhaps...or we could just change the law.
 
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Jared

Regular Member
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892
Location
Michigan, USA
Oh... I need to read the law :eek:
Ummm, I did. I am not arguing that there aren't 2 different zones, just that, 1). The words "Pistol Free Zone" and "Firearm Free Zone" is never used and, 2). The terms "Pistol" and "Firearm" are NOT mutually exclusive. I believe that the way that the way the AG termed them above is clearer, that is all I am saying. If you had used the terms as listed in THE LAW, I would have had no argument.

The words are used based on the wording of the laws.... so yes, I would say that many people actually need to read the law.

234d. mentions "Firearm"; hence Firearm Free Zones... it covers all firearms of all kinds. The word pistol is not mentioned once in 234d. I couldn't find it. Since "Firearm" is mentioned and "Pistol" is not, Firearm Free Zone makes more sense than Pistol Free Zone.

425o mentiones "concealed weapon" in the title and in the main body it mentions concealed pistols. A "firearm" is not mentioned. One can carry a concealed longarm in a Pistol Free Zone with no permit of any kind (unless it is a Firearm Free Zone as well).

Again, the term are used as mentined in the law. It is what it is.. and peoples laziness is going to get someone jammed up. The bank is a perfect example. It's not a PFZ, but you can't open carry (without a license) as it's a FFZ. Someone can and probably will get jammed up at some point in the future.
 
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