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SB1427: Property Rights vs. Individual Rights

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
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Valhalla
So, How do they explain changing the plain language of the 2nd Amendment?

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

It is because they are human and inherently corrupted with power. It permeates our society from SCOTUS down to meter maids, to security guards, to LEOs, to moderators on internet forums. Power corrupts human beings, period.

Amazing how friends and contributors get a pass from said corrupted.

I wonder how many women would say breastfeeding should be criminalized while in public?

Every mammal on earth does it. It is natural. Man wants to corrupt it into something gross and nasty. Pathetic really.

You should start and operate your own site in accordance with your ideas, but OCDO will continue as a private property to be managed by the Administration and Moderators thereof.

[SIZE=-1]One always looking for flaws leaves too little time for construction - LEWIS F. KORNS, Thoughts[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

 

SovereigntyOrDeath

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2014
Messages
411
Location
Coeur D Alene, Idaho
One always looking for flaws leaves too little time for construction - LEWIS F. KORNS, Thoughts

If you are talking about my questioning of SCOTUS changing the Constitution and usurping our rights by Judicial Review, I will let Ben Franklin answer for me:

“It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority.”

― Benjamin Franklin

Carry On
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
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Luckily the Constitution is not.

Constitutional Carry is not an oxymoron.

I own a gun, my property, my right.

I carry the gun, open or concealed, my property, my right.

Period.

Carry On!
An authority of one :lol:....:lol:

Not many of us live in a vacuum.

It is however time to give it a break.

One man rants seemingly looking to overwhelm by weight of personal opinions accomplishes nothing.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
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Try breastfeeding in a court room and wait the response..

It would seem in Virginia a judge would be in violation of the law were he to sanction it.

Usually courts have a rule against babes in arms being allowed in the courtroom. This rule that the mother find an alternate source of supervision for her infant while she is in the courtroom may not be illegal even if the bill is passed and becomes law, based on a presumption that a babe in arms may/will/is causing a disturbance to the proceedings.*

Breastfeeding defendants have the right to request a recess to feed their infant and I think a judge would be hard-pressed on appealable to not grant that request as expeditiously as possible. Similarly a breastfeeding mother who had made alternate arrangements for the supervision of her infant may request a recess to express milk for the relief of pain/discomfort, and again I think a judge would be hard-pressed on appealable grounds not to grant that request as expeditiously as possible.

Those being the caases I doubt there would ever come a time when a judge or bailiff would ever face violation of the proposed law. But then I'm just trying to look at the entirity of the situation and not focus on just what this law will say once it is passed.

stay safe.

* - Consider the situation of a [strike]homeless[/strike] person who can be smelled from halfway down the hallway. The judge may rule that they may not enter the courtroom because to do so would cause a disturbance. (I'm not sure how a judge would handle that situation if the [strike]homeless[/strike] person were a subpeoned witness but I would love to be there to see how the judge did resolve the matter.)
 
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paramedic70002

Regular Member
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Location
Franklin, VA, Virginia, USA
I'm not sure of the current legal status of being a topless female in Virginia, but I understand there is a growing trend toward legalization. That whole equal protection thing, breasts are breasts, man v woman. You might say it is a more rare and controversial, but not dissimilar, version of 'open carry.' So 'cover up' might NOT be the most legally defensible option. Funny how I need a permit to CC, but mothers need a law to openly feed.
 
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skidmark

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I'm not sure of the current legal status of being a topless female in Virginia, but I understand there is a growing trend toward legalization. That whole equal protection thing, breasts are breasts, man v woman. You might say it is a more rare and controversial, but not dissimilar, version of 'open carry.' So 'cover up' might be the most legally defensible option. Funny how I need a permit to CC, but mothers need a law to openly feed.

Indecent exposure: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-387 (exception for breastfeeding already in there but wandering around topless while female not necessarily given a free pass.

Obscene defined: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-372
... that which, considered as a whole, has as its dominant theme or purpose an appeal to the prurient interest in sex, that is, a shameful or morbid interest in nudity, ..., and which goes substantially beyond customary limits of candor in description or representation of such matters and which, taken as a whole, does not have serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

There are two problems with that definition: "I'll know it when I see it." and it's the judge/jury who gets to decide if it is or is not. Mens rea does not figure into itat all.

Which may make the laws open for challenge as ambiguous. That might require trial in more than one jurisdiction with different outcomes for the same behavior. Probably ought to ask a specialist in Connstitutional Law :uhoh: about that.

stay safe.
 

paramedic70002

Regular Member
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Messages
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Location
Franklin, VA, Virginia, USA
§ 18.2-387. Indecent exposure.
Every person who intentionally makes an obscene display or exposure of his person, or the private parts thereof, in any public place, or in any place where others are present, or procures another to so expose himself, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. No person shall be deemed to be in violation of this section for breastfeeding a child in any public place or any place where others are present.

Are "private parts" defined in the law? Seems a rather nebulous phrase. On the order of the "good and sufficient reason" to carry a gun in church. I honestly consider "private parts" to be that area of the frontal groin/crotch having to do with intercourse, and perhaps the areas very near, and at, the lower half of the butt crack, concerned with elimination of waste. For instance, Virginia Beach bans thongs on the beach, but bikinis are OK.

I have heard that NY state allows female toplessness due to a court case challenging it, although it is rarely dome.
 

skidmark

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Valhalla
Are "private parts" defined in the law? Seems a rather nebulous phrase. On the order of the "good and sufficient reason" to carry a gun in church. I honestly consider "private parts" to be that area of the frontal groin/crotch having to do with intercourse, and perhaps the areas very near, and at, the lower half of the butt crack, concerned with elimination of waste. For instance, Virginia Beach bans thongs on the beach, but bikinis are OK.

I have heard that NY state allows female toplessness due to a court case challenging it, although it is rarely dome.

Go to http://leg1.state.va.us/000/src.htm Enter the search word "private" (without the quotation marks). Read stuff in Chapter 18.2.

Honestly, nobody cares what you consider "private parts" to be - because you will not be deciding if X is or is not a "private part".

For "indecent liberties with a minor" they seem to be anything covered by a swimsuit, but that's just my reading of a few court cases that became known because they were appealed. A few Cities/Counties used to have ordinances regulating what could not be seen in "adult entertainment establishments" which might be a better metric to use for discussion of this subject. You are welcome to go to https://www.municode.com/library/ and do the work for the rest of us.

Regardless, I'm beginning to think we ought to contact the Chesterfield County Sheriff and have him swap out his designated overwatcher http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...rfield-Co-Courthouse-citizens-are-intimidated for a breastfeeding mother. It would stop the 'Aloha Snackbar!" terrorists in their tracks and probably distract anybody else wanting to sneak a weapon into the building. (Quit trying to put on a shocked face. All y'all knew I am warped.:p)

stay safe.
 

user

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Another example of badly drafted legislation. I suspect what they were getting at was the problem of women being in a public place that is privately owned, such as a shopping mall, while feeding their babies. What they should have done is to identify natural feeding activities as an inherent characteristic of womanhood and that any prohibition on such feeding constitutes discrimination on the basis of sex. As written, all a property owner has to do is to tell them woman that she has to leave at once, and if she remains, she is a trespasser and thus not "lawfully present". I've been watching the legislative process for some years, and I'm always amazed at how badly written statutes are. Then, when the courts get ahold of these things, they can "interpret" them to mean whatever the members of the court think they ought to have said, precisely because they're badly written to begin with. Where do we get these people we send the legislature, anyway?

(Btw, all five of my kids were naturally fed until naturally weaned, which in humans generally occurs at around age 2 or 3 years. I'm a strong supporter of La Leche League, and am constantly horrified at the self-important self-absorbed ways in which people short-change their kids by lack of proper care and discipline.)
 

user

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Northern Piedmont
Try breastfeeding in a court room and wait the response..

I've seen it done; it's a good way to shut the kid up, shove a teat in its mouth. (It works on me, after all.) Generally, kids are excluded when they make a fuss; quiet, well behaved kids are almost never excluded. I have seen overactive deputies throw people out for having kids, but that's rare.
 

MackTheKnife

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
198
Location
Jacksonville, Florida
There are many restrictions on private businesses that invite the public that differ from those for you in your home: zoning, construction standards, fire prevention, seating capacity, even how many bathrooms and which way ingress/egress doors swing.

I'm more than a little tired of the suggestion that I can take my money elsewhere. I'd rather the response be, "Go into another business where you are not required to contribute to the common safety of your "guests." You may be assured my primary concern (literally and figuratively) - is safety.

It has been suggested that such Quasi-public businesses by allowed to opt out by providing such sufficient liability insurance to cover injury or death for someone so harmed by the establishment's choices. I'm not in favor of that personally, but it might make such a change easier.
This thread has generated some interesting and varied responses. However, property rights are rights. How about the gun range owner who has banned Muslims? Should the Muslims 1st Amendment rights trump her property rights? Absolutely not. It's a private business. Right of refusal has long been accepted, although challenged at times. You can't bring food into an establishment purchased elsewhere. I am not equating food with guns.
The restrictions you mentioned are what a business owner agrees to to get a business license. They are regulations, not necessarily law.


Sent from my Kindle via the NSA.
 
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