Scary incident involving shots fired

[jmb_nova]

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ravonaf wrote:

hsmith wrote:

ravonaf wrote:

According to what I was taught. If you are in a fist fight and getting the crap beat out of you it is not legal to escalate the incident to lethal force. The BG did not have a weapon. I can easily see this going to trial.

Since you were taught this, you can provide some references to what you are referring to.

Well, considering it's common knowledge that Virginia law says you must reasonably have fear of being killed or being seriously injured (yourself or others) do I really need to cite a quote? What I'm saying is a DA is going to go after a cab driver for shooting a man that was admittedly only going after $10 and only swinging a fist. I can easily see a Jury convicting this man.

What I was taught is that a single man swinging a fist and getting killed for it is going to go to trial. I know I don't fear death from a couple swings. Maybe you do.

So what happens when the blow to the head knocks you out? While you are knocked out, can you protect your life or would you fear for your life? (If you had cognitive thought of course)

 

[MSC 45ACP]

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jmb_nova wrote:

ravonaf wrote:

hsmith wrote:

ravonaf wrote:

According to what I was taught. If you are in a fist fight and getting the crap beat out of you it is not legal to escalate the incident to lethal force. The BG did not have a weapon. I can easily see this going to trial.

Since you were taught this, you can provide some references to what you are referring to.

Well, considering it's common knowledge that Virginia law says you must reasonably have fear of being killed or being seriously injured (yourself or others) do I really need to cite a quote? What I'm saying is a DA is going to go after a cab driver for shooting a man that was admittedly only going after $10 and only swinging a fist. I can easily see a Jury convicting this man.

What I was taught is that a single man swinging a fist and getting killed for it is going to go to trial. I know I don't fear death from a couple swings. Maybe you do.

So what happens when the blow to the head knocks you out? While you are knocked out, can you protect your life or would you fear for your life? (If you had cognitive thought of course)

I would also take the neighborhood into account. For those not familiar with that area, its Dodge City. If he had left his cab to chase down the BG, he may have returned in 30 minutes to find it stripped of anything valueable.

I'm pretty sure Indy and NASCAR Pit crews got "NOTHIN" on the folks that live there... The only reason they don't hire them is they would have sticky fingers and would need a lot of $$ to finance their daily "habits"...

 

[jmb_nova]

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MSC 45ACP wrote:

jmb_nova wrote:

ravonaf wrote:

hsmith wrote:

ravonaf wrote:

According to what I was taught. If you are in a fist fight and getting the crap beat out of you it is not legal to escalate the incident to lethal force. The BG did not have a weapon. I can easily see this going to trial.

Since you were taught this, you can provide some references to what you are referring to.

Well, considering it's common knowledge that Virginia law says you must reasonably have fear of being killed or being seriously injured (yourself or others) do I really need to cite a quote? What I'm saying is a DA is going to go after a cab driver for shooting a man that was admittedly only going after $10 and only swinging a fist. I can easily see a Jury convicting this man.

What I was taught is that a single man swinging a fist and getting killed for it is going to go to trial. I know I don't fear death from a couple swings. Maybe you do.

So what happens when the blow to the head knocks you out? While you are knocked out, can you protect your life or would you fear for your life? (If you had cognitive thought of course)

I would also take the neighborhood into account. For those not familiar with that area, its Dodge City. If he had left his cab to chase down the BG, he may have returned in 30 minutes to find it stripped of anything valueable.

I'm pretty sure Indy and NASCAR Pit crews got "NOTHIN" on the folks that live there... The only reason they don't hire them is they would have sticky fingers and would need a lot of $$ to finance their daily "habits"...

I would think that if the OP had chased said BG, then he would have had a hard time claiming self-defense.

Inside the cab though, the OP stated that he was already a little woozy after the first punch. If he had been knocked out, what could have happened to him then?

My opinion (AND ONLY MY OPINION since some ass in another thread thinks I need to fact-check my own opinions) is that he would be OK to shoot like he did in the cab for fear of his life, but chasing the guy would have resulted in charges being brought on the OP.

 

[marshaul]

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mobeewan wrote:

I wonder if the BG had on body armor that deflected the round.

Ping...!

Like magic.

 

[InsuredByGlock]

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Not sure how else I missed him. At the close distance it was fired, I'm positive he got a face full of hot gas , and possibly a powder burn. His face was directly above the ejection port when it fired.

 

[marshaul]

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Most body armor absorbs energy and stops bullets, which is not really compatible with deflection.

In my limited knowledge and experience, the notion that a BG might actually be wearing deflection body armor defies Occam's razor.

I figure you probably just missed, maybe punched a hole in his shirt.

 

[DocDaddy]

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InsuredByGlock wrote:

Not sure how else I missed him. At the close distance it was fired, I'm positive he got a face full of hot gas , and possibly a powder burn. His face was directly above the ejection port when it fired.

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2007/6/Guy-shoots-lawyer-behind-a-tree-304769.html

Granted this was not in a cab, but pretty amazing none the less... for the lawyers sake anyways. Glad you made it through and +1 for defending your life and not being a statistic.

 

[zoom6zoom]

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I would think that if the OP had chased said BG, then he would have had a hard time claiming self-defense.

+1. At the point the BG took flight, he was no longer an active threat. Glad you made it through OK.

There's a bit of a chuckle in the back of my mind picturing him demanding a ten, and you asking him if he's got change for a .45

 

[KBCraig]

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InsuredByGlock wrote:

Sorry it took me awhile to get to the replies. Gave a statement to 2 detectives, and they agreed that I would be in the clear if I had connected. If you go out in front of 814 48th st you will likely still see the broken glass everywhere.

Lovely neighborhood.

 

[peter nap]

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Agent19 wrote:

ravonaf wrote:

According to what I was taught. If you are in a fist fight and getting the crap beat out of you it is not legal to escalate the incident to lethal force. The BG did not have a weapon. I can easily see this going to trial.

Again, Huh?!!!!
Please show me where the OP stated he was engaged in a fist fight!

A fight involves combatants not a victim and an attacker.

The fare demanded money and used force to gain compliance, that force (blows to the head) could main or kill.

[line]

If you don't believe it could happen I'll be happy to demonstrate how easy it is.
I would let you use real pepper spray and/or a real stun gun NO GUN OR KNIFE SINCE YOU DON'T BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BE USED AS THEY ARE LETHAL FORCE.

Send me a pm when you're in my area and I'll arrange for someone to video tape,it will be used as a training aid.

Ps.
You should ask for a refund from whoever taught you.

+1:lol:

 

[driveramsII]

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marshaul wrote:

Most body armor absorbs energy and stops bullets, which is not really compatible with deflection.

In my limited knowledge and experience, the notion that a BG might actually be wearing deflection body armor defies Occam's razor.

I figure you probably just missed, maybe punched a hole in his shirt.

Not to mention, i dont think standard body armor is going to stop a .45 from point blank.



To bad you missed, Norfolk (hampton roads for that matter)could use a thinning of morons... they tend to congregate in the area.

 

[MSC 45ACP]

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I'm nearly positive the mope wasn't wearing body armor. His dazed reaction on the sidewalk after the incident leads me to believe the following, but these are merely my SWAG's* and not necessarily fact...

1. He was definitely feeling the effects of the muzzle blast. The bright flash, hot gasses and powder burns. He may have a "crease" or oblong hole in his clothing or even a grazing wound he didn't even notice until his "buzz" wore off. I think it's pretty unlikely he went away from the encounter completely unscathed.

2. The dazed reaction following the incident also leads me to believe he was most certainly "on something".

3. The reaction of a "normal" criminal not "on something" upon seeing a .45 in his face would most likely involve FLIGHT, not FIGHT.
Even the toughest unarmed street hood is going tostop briefly to contemplate his future careerwhile looking at the .45 pointed at him.
A hyped up dope fiendmay not even notice the pistol or recognize it as a threat.

4. I think the "request" for $10was a arbitrary number.The severity of his attack indicated his willingness touse extreme force. He probably wanted EVERYTHING the cab driver had in his posession. With his flawed, drug-induced sense of logic, He probably thought the cabbie would be more willing to comply with a request for $10 than the standard "give me all your money" most robbers use. Once the cabbie pulled out his "wad" to peel off the $10, he may have planned to just grab the whole wad and run.
His entire technique and attack were far different from the "normal" profile most cab-robbers use. I'm not entirely sure about this line of thought, I may be more fullofchit than a Christmas Turkey, but this is just another SWAG.



* SWAG = Scientific Wild @$$ Guess.
Usually based on knowledge, experience and other information the person making the SWAG has in his repetoire. Usually more accurate than a simple WAG, but not always.

 

[mobeewan]

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Another thought on the deflected bullit theory. Maybe he was wearing a huge piece of bling under his coat and you hit it.

 

[vt800c]

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ravonaf wrote:

You say defend your gun? Using lethal force to defend property is definitely illegal in Virginia.

Ok..it gets a bit fuzzy here. If I am carrying, doesn't that mean that if incapacitated, that I am now subject to lethal force from my attacker, now potentially armed with my own firearm? So in self defense, I MUST protect my firearm! Thats part of the responsibility of carrying.

Or am I just whistling 'Dixie'?

 

[Yellow_Mustang]

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"Justifiable homicide in self-defense occurs [when] a person, without any fault on his part in provoking or bringing on the difficulty, kills another under reasonable apprehension of death or great bodily harm to himself. "Smith, 17 Va. App. at 71, 435 S.E.2d at 416



If you have any doubt that fists can inflict "great bodily harm" you need to think again.

Also the idea that if you shoot someone while involved in a "fist fight" would suggest that it is a mutual combat situation...not a person being battered without provocation!

 

[MSC 45ACP]

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vt800c wrote:

ravonaf wrote:

You say defend your gun? Using lethal force to defend property is definitely illegal in Virginia.

Ok..it gets a bit fuzzy here. If I am carrying, doesn't that mean that if incapacitated, that I am now subject to lethal force from my attacker, now potentially armed with my own firearm? So in self defense, I MUST protect my firearm! Thats part of the responsibility of carrying.

Or am I just whistling 'Dixie'?

Semantics. Youshould "protect" your weapon with a retention holster and practice retention techniques to prevent someone from disarming you. Someone that steals or takes your firearm away from you has committed a felony.

Now... Having said that, in the Commonwealth of Virginia, you may NOT use deadly force to protect PROPERTY, while in the Republic of Texas, you can.

If you are attacked while armed and fear you (OR SOMEONE ELSE)are in danger of serious bodily harm or death, you may use DEADLY FORCE to protect yourself OR another person.

Admitting to using deadly force to protect yourself (or someone else)is ALSO an ADMISSION of guilt that you have willingly taken the life of another, but you did so in SELF DEFENSE. Remember that. It is important.

The fact it was in self defense is something that could be decided by the LEO on the scene and you may not even spend the night in the crossbar motel, but you could end up indicted by Grand Jury later. You could also be "detained" or arrested for shooting someone in self defense and released later without bond and never go to court AND... you could get arrested and go to the pokey, not pass "GO" not collect $200 and spend a LONG time in prison.

That is exactly why you should keep your TRAP SHUT and let your lawyer do the talking.

If you don't already have one, I highly recommend buying "Virginia Gun Owners Guide". It is a very good reference and is full of good info.

Clear as mud, right?

Semper Paratus, Brother!

 

[paramedic70002]

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Since you were sure you hit the guy, I'm wondering if the bullet passed through, and the canines couldn't find any blood because it was pooling in his clothing. Any bodies reported in the area about that time? LEOs get any GSW reports from an Emergency Department?

Do you know where the round ended up?

 

[InsuredByGlock]

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nothing heard so far. the round exited the passengers rear window, thoroughly decimating it