Shooting in Sterling

[Repeater]

Anyone remember Yoshihiro Hattori or Rodney Peairs?

I'd love to think that at 2 AM when suddenly faced with a home invader, in a split second I could asses his actions, behavior, body language and say oh crap its just a drunk kid, or this is a serious threat.

I'd love to think that. Reality? Your home has been invaded. Your family and self are likely in danger. Your hearts racing. Adrenaline is pumping. You come face to face with a homeowners worst nightmare. Instincts will take over and you will do what you believe needs doing.

Certainly just my $.02

In a sense, this reminds me of the incident that occurred Halloween night in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, involving Rodney Peairs, who shot and killed Yoshihiro Hattori. Under the circumstances, I've always been critical of Webb Haymaker for not supervising Hattori more responsibly. Haymaker could have defused the situation promptly. Instead, he stood by and watched Hattori be shot.

Gordley's friends could have been more responsible. Perhaps they were intoxicated, too.

A thorough investigation may reveal unpleasant truths.

 

[Defrock]

I can appreciate that we're talking about a grieving family here, but this is a bit much for me to swallow. Their "angel" broke home rules, broke the law, self-intoxicated to the point he didn't even know his own house, apparently disregarded warnings to stop advancing, and was shot. Tragic, yes, but an accident? What part of this was an accident?

I really don't see that this person needs "forgiving" for anything, and in fact for the family to say that is quite insulting to the guy who felt his life was in danger.

Was it a terrible thing to happen? Of course. Last I checked, "forgiveness" was required for wrong-doing. If anything, these parents should be asking forgiveness for the illegal actions of their son, the end results of which will no doubt haunt this guy for the rest of his life.

Am I being too harsh?

TFred

QFE, TFred.

 

[peter nap]

QFE, TFred.

No gang symbols allowed!

 

[skidmark]

OK, so some of you think he should not have shot. Please tell us, in your opinions, just where is the line where you do shoot a home invader, halfway upstairs to you (and your family's) last retreat position, at 2 in the morning (and in the dark, or course), and you see this presumed "tall" (he was a HS varsity basketball player) "man" profile there, and you are half asleep yourself, not believing what you are seeing. After all, this doesn't happen every day, OR to ANY one you know or counsel with. So, you wait, because some on OCDO said you should not shoot, then he straightens up and shoots YOU by surprise?

I'm seriously interested in the critics defining WHEN you should act in a case like this, just where that imaginary line is that is crossed in justified shootings.

I was never a pansy kid, but I don't know any one who did such a thing as this, in my growing up days, so I find it not-so-angel-like behaviour.

The line is drawn where I have some sort of visual assessment of the potential target and not only what he is doing (specific phycial activity + my gut reaction about his intent) but what he either has in his hand(s) or that he has his hands hidden.

It gets back to being a responsible firearms owner who uses that firearm for self defense. "Know your target" is not a phrase that we regurgitate without thinking about what it means and how to accomplish that. Do you have a weapon-mounted light? (Not my favorite, because you end up pointing at a whole lot of things you might not want to destroy, but it sure makes it easy to get a light into play.) Where is your hand-held flashlight? (This is not the time to be concerned about the differences between isocoles and reverse Weaver grips. Hold that flashlight in one hand and the gun in the other is OK by me, under the circumstances.) (You have practices firing one-handed, and maybe even unsighted one-handed, right?) (Notice how I never made any reference to point shooting?)

Pretty much every house I've ever been in has a light at the top of the stairs and at the bottom of the stairs. You are standing there, trembling and about to change the color of the carpet and walls to some version of brown and/or yellow - but you should be able to flip that light switch. (What? You have never drilled Repel Boarders Ladderway? Why not?)

I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. Help yourself be more aware of what is happening. That helps determine what you will do and when.

But to get to Joe's question of "just where is the line where you do shoot ... because some on OCDO said you should not shoot, then he straightens up and shoots YOU by surprise?" I do not think anybody is saying "Do not shoot" as in do not ever shoot. But we all know the law (statute and case) that clearly explains that the only two defenses for the intentional killing of someone under self defense circumstances are justifiable and excusable homicide. And both of them require that you - wait for it! - reasonably believe that you are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. That means, first of all, that we are behind in the reactionary curve. Always. We must wait to see what they are intending to do, or say they will do, or at least have the means and opportunity to do.

Why do you reasonably believe he has a gun and is going to shoot you? Yes, in the middle of the night when you have been jolted awake by the blaring of your home alarm, you are going to have to make a reasonable determination. Kind of puts the pressure on you, doesn't it?

At the risk of repeating it that one more time that will cause the heavens to come crashing down - the gun is not a magic talisman. Merely having it does not mean you know how to use it, let alone when to use it. Education, training, and practice. It's not all that expensive, and it certainly is not that hard. In the instant situation - get dressed/undressed for bed and lie down on the bed, lights out and door in the condition you have it when sleeping. Gun and light (if you have one) in their designated places - BUT TRIPLE-CHECKED TO BE EMPTY AND LIVE AMMO MOVED FAR AWAY. Spouse/child/friend stands on the stairs (or some safe place) and imitates being the alarm going off. They can either physically act out the intruder or merely yell basic info of description, location, and behavior. Even though you know it's going to happen and may even be mentally rehearsing what you are going to do (hey, that's practice, too!) you are going to be somewhat startled because you do not know exactly when the drill will begin.

I have developed a Repel Boarders drill for someone crashing through either of my doors while I am kicked back in the motorized LazyBoy. Having one of those laser gizmos that marks where your shots go is sort of expensice (about $100) but IMHO well worth the sacrifices needed to save up for it. Drawing from a reclining position is easy compared to climbing out of the chair when it is stuck in the "up" position. But it's faster than waiting for the motor to get the thing back to the locked and full upright position. Which is presented only to show it can be done without going off to some souper-tacticool class. (One of these days I'm going to talk a few local instructors into offering a class like this. At least they do not have hats and matching tee-shirts with their name and "Killing Machine" embroidered on them.)

How does that old military sayinng go? Failing to plan is planning to fail.

Kind of longer than I actually planned it to be, but there were several issues that I felt needed to be covered in order to give a decent reply. (PeterNap and Grapeshot - you both shut up!)

stay safe.

 

[Grapeshot]

--snip--
Kind of longer than I actually planned it to be, but there were several issues that I felt needed to be covered in order to give a decent reply. (PeterNap and Grapeshot - you both shut up!)

Mmmmmf

 

[Blk97F150]

Release from Loudoun County Sheriffs Office (via email update):

From: Loudoun Sheriff [mailto:alert_SVQ@alert.loudoun.gov]
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:01 PM
To: RSAN
Subject: Update on Fatal Shooting on Pullman Court

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
March 21, 2013

Contact: Liz Mills, Director of Media Relations and Communications, 571-251-5568 (mobile) Liz.mills@loudoun.gov<;mailto:Liz.mills@loudoun.gov>

Update on Fatal Shooting on Pullman Court


Loudoun County, VA- The Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office continues to investigate a
shooting that occurred during the early morning hours of March 17th. Loudoun County
Sheriff’s Deputies had been dispatched to the home in the 45900 block of Pullman Court
for a report of a burglary with shots fired by the homeowner.

At this point in the investigation, it appears Caleb A. Gordley, 16, of Sterling,
Virginia, mistakenly entered a neighbor’s residence on Pullman Court through a rear,
unlocked window. There is no evidence to indicate Caleb entered the home with any further
criminal intent. The 16-year-old Park View High School student lived on the same street
as the home. Based on interviews, it was learned Caleb had been drinking alcohol with
friends that evening.

The shooting took place shortly after 2:30AM Sunday when a resident reported that their
house alarm was activated. As the homeowner went to investigate, he discovered an unknown
male inside their home.

The homeowner reportedly gave verbal warnings and discharged the firearm as a warning. As
the teenager proceeded up the stairwell and into a hallway, the homeowner discharged his
firearm several times. The teenager was struck once in the left rear shoulder after
passing the homeowner in the hallway and walking towards an upstairs bedroom where other
residents of the house were located. The teenager lost his life at the scene.

At this point, it appears that the firearm used, a .40 caliber pistol, was legally owned.
Several shell casings and rounds were recovered at the scene.

While the issue of these minors obtaining alcohol is separate from the actual shooting,
the Sheriff’s Office is continuing to investigate the circumstances surrounding how it
was obtained.

On Wednesday, Loudoun County Sheriff’s Detectives met with members of Caleb’s family to
update them on the latest findings in the case and to detail the circumstances
surrounding the incident. The homeowner and Caleb’s family remain cooperative in the
investigation.

The case remains open pending a final report from the Medical Examiner’s Office, to
include a toxicology report. The results of the investigation are being reviewed by the
Office of the Loudoun County Commonwealth’s Attorney, but no final determination will be
made until all the information has been received.

 

[1245A Defender]

Well,,

Thanks Skidmark!
I dont like most "wall o texts", but when someone like you
writes a thoughtful, ballanced explanation, full of insight,
something that covers all the bases...
I was a pleasure to read and I hope it restores some sanity to this important thread.

 

[Blk97F150]

The homeowner reportedly gave verbal warnings and discharged the firearm as a warning. As
the teenager proceeded up the stairwell and into a hallway, the homeowner discharged his
firearm several times. The teenager was struck once in the left rear shoulder after
passing the homeowner in the hallway and walking towards an upstairs bedroom where other
residents of the house were located. The teenager lost his life at the scene.

I think that adds a bit more clairity to the situation....

 

[Grapeshot]

It would appear that the homeowner waited longer and let the young man get closer than some others here might have. To me that shows a great deal of restraint, at the least, reluctance to shoot.

 

[WalkingWolf]

I would have eventually pulled the dogs off of him...

 

[Forty-five]

I think that adds a bit more clairity to the situation....

Yes, after breaking and entering, ignoring an alarm, ignoring verbal warnings, ignoring a warning shot, and ignoring an armed homeowner (passing the homeowner in the hallway).

 

[Marco]

The teenager was struck once in the left rear shoulder after
passing the homeowner in the hallway and walking towards an upstairs bedroom where other
residents of the house were located.

This bit of info is very helpful.
As it appears the HO wasn't concerned for his own safety but that of his (sleeping/defenseless) family.

It would appear that the homeowner waited longer and let the young man get closer than some others here might have. To me that shows a great deal of restraint, at the least, reluctance to shoot.

1+
As a parent of 4 children 3 of which are very young I can empathize with the HO and the parents.
Hopefully, I wouldn't be put in the same position. I have dogs that check out strange noises, while I check on the kids.

 

[TFred]

This kid drank himself to death. It just wasn't the alcohol that did the actual killing.



TFred

 

[skidmark]

....

...after passing the homeowner in the hallway and walking towards an upstairs bedroom where other
residents of the house were located......

After reading that, there are a few comments to be added to my above post.

1 - It is not possible to tell in the teen merely walked past the spot where the homeowner had taken up position or if he pushed on past the homeowner.

2 - in any case, again it comes down to planning and training. Have you selected a spot where you have at least some sort of cover, yet can control anyone that might try to get past you? Have you selected a "line in the sand" where you will not let anybody pass? This not only keeps distance between the invader and who/what you are trying to protect, it keeps your muzzle from ever pointing towards who/what you are trying to protect. It also puts shots into the front part of the invader which pretty much eliminates any speculation you were in hiding, waiting to dry gulch them as they went past, as opposed to being confronted RTRT with an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury.

3 - Homeowner shot the kid in the shoulder, as opposed to the center of the back*. I'm not even suggesting that the homeowner should have done better - but I am pointing out the clear possibility of having a "miss" sending a round down a hall towards the bedrooms he was trying to protect. The first shot (miss instead of the shoulder hit) being high, goes into the bedroom at an angle most likely to send the bullet above where someone sleeping in a bed might be. But then the odds are the homeowner would have pulled the muzzle down for the next shot(s) - and those are more likely to end up hitting someone sleeping in their bed if a bullet goes past the invader again. In this case there is the possibility of the master bedroom being on a lower level than the rest of the bedrooms. It has become more common in home design. If that were the case, misses may not be as likely to endanger other family members who are on an upper level.


4 - Allowing/permitting someone to walk past you after yelling at them to stop, and after having fired one or more "warning shots", IMHO still does not rise to reasonable apprehension of imminent death or serious bodily harm. Especially in light of

after passing the homeowner in the hallway and walking towards an upstairs bedroom where other residents of the house were located.

There was a whole stairway to be climbed before the kid got to the upstairs level. Where is the imminent danger? (Yes, I am extremely well aware of the case law surriounding the difference between "imminent" and "immediate". Do you really want to get into that?)

stay safe.

* shot in the left shoulder and dies at the scene from the wound suggests a few possibilities - all of which further suggest luck had a lot to do with this (eventual) one-shot stop. 1 - The bullet hit the subclavian artery as it passed beyond the shoulder. A body part much harder to hit, being protected by the shoulder/shoulderr blade structure from the rear. 2 - The bullet was travelling in some sort of diagonal through the body and hit the heart, the aorta, or the lung after passing through the shoulder. Again, a lot harder to hit due to the natural shielding of the shoulder blades. 3 - The bullet hit the spinal column after passing through the shoulder - again suggesting an angled shot as opposed to one square to the shooter's back. All of these suggest that the homeowner was not full in the hallway.

 

[Blk97F150]

4 - Allowing/permitting someone to walk past you after yelling at them to stop, and after having fired one or more "warning shots", IMHO still does not rise to reasonable apprehension of imminent death or serious bodily harm. Especially in light of

after passing the homeowner in the hallway and walking towards an upstairs bedroom where other residents of the house were located.

There was a whole stairway to be climbed before the kid got to the upstairs level. ....

Skid, I think perhaps you misread the Sheriffs office release. The way I read it... the intruder (the 'unwelcome visitor into the home') had already climbed the staircase, gotten past the homeowner, and was physically located in the upper level hallway headed towards "an upstairs bedroom". "Upstairs" being a discriptor of where the bedroom is located within the house, not a reference that the 'intruder' was on a lower level and needed to still 'go up'.

Snip from the release:

The homeowner reportedly gave verbal warnings and discharged the firearm as a warning. As
the teenager proceeded up the stairwell and into a hallway, the homeowner discharged his firearm several times. The teenager was struck once in the left rear shoulder after passing the homeowner in the hallway and walking towards an upstairs bedroom where other residents of the house were located. The teenager lost his life at the scene.

Edit: not sure what happened but my original post didn't have a portion of the quoted test from Skids post... think is ok now. Hopefully (can't preview an edit apparently)

 

[WalkingWolf]

This kid drank himself to death. It just wasn't the alcohol that did the actual killing.



TFred

If he was that drunk the alcohol probably was a major factor if he bled out.

 

[2a4all]

The (multi-part) question I have is this: Who did he think (or did he even realize that someone) was pointing a gun at him? Did his own father confront him so often in his own home that he became used to it, perhaps because he frequently used the window to enter/exit his own house?

Civil action? Doesn't seem likely. Contributory negligence?

He walked past a man with a gun who had warned him to stop both verbally and by firing his weapon? At that point I have to think that, besides being wasted, he's been confronted like this before. What was this kid really like to live with? I hope the Sheriff's investigation looks into his home life.
Methinks "little angel" isn't an accurate term.

 

[TFred]

He walked past a man with a gun who had warned him verbally to stop, then fired his weapon? At that point I have to think that, besides being wasted, he's been confronted like this before. What was this kid really like to live with? I hope the Sheriff's investigation looks into his home life.
Methinks the "little angel" isn't an accurate term.

My speculation as well: Kid almost certainly thought the home owner was his father, not at all hard to imagine him ignoring him (classic teen: "what EVER") and even brushing past him to get to "his" room, which in fact had home owner's own kids inside.

TFred

 

[WalkingWolf]

IMO this is a alcohol related death, more than anything else. Nobody should get that drunk they do not know their own home. If it had been me he would probably have survived but suffered dog bites from a grouchy old wolf, and protective retriever. My wolf is 16 years old and has no sense of humor whatsoever.

Alcohol kills more people outside of natural causes, especially when taken into consideration that a portion of motor vehicle fatalities are caused by drunks. I wonder if this is the young man's first experience with alcohol.

 

[minarchist]

He walked past a man with a gun who had warned him to stop both verbally and by firing his weapon? At that point I have to think that, besides being wasted, he's been confronted like this before. What was this kid really like to live with? I hope the Sheriff's investigation looks into his home life.
Methinks "little angel" isn't an accurate term.