Shots fired at South Haven Picnic

[Greggy_D]

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CV67PAT wrote:

I'm not saying to give the guy a pass. I'm just not for wrongfully accusing him without adequate information. What was the make and model of the pistol? There may be more to this. The chief even called it an accident. It's the prosecutor that's going for ND. And I think there's already some firsthand experience with over zealous prosecutors by people in this forum.

Point taken.

Edit: I would have bet it was a Glock.

 

[Greggy_D]

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autosurgeon wrote:

Look it was a springfield XD .40 grip safety and trigger disconnect safety... no thumb safety.

It went off.

Seriously? How in the world did this happen then? Is he sending the pistol to Springfield for inspection?

 

[Guest]

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Autosurgeon says it was a springfield XD .40. I don't have a working knowledge of them.

I am very familiar with glocks. I've had one for 23 years. Glocks do not AD. Plain and simple. You're right that the trigger has to be finger f***ed to get them to fire.

 

[T Vance]

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CV67PAT wrote:

Greggy_D wrote:

Can we please stop calling this an AD? This was a ND all the way.

What proof do you have?
Were you the one handling the weapon?
Were you even there?

I agree! I posted a link earlier about a S&W recall which allowed a gun to discharge when it shouldn't. None of us were the one handling the gun, so who are we to make assumptions about what happened.

Sure, it may look bad for Open Carry because it happened to happen right after he left the picnic, but all the anti's would be making a fuss of it regardless if he went to a OC picnic or not. The only difference is he happened to be at an OC picnic so of course they are going to associate the two.

Either way, who cares what the anti's have to say. The person who created the blog obviously can't even be mature about it without making a "Barney Fife" reference.

 

[autosurgeon]

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The model of Springfield XD he has is equipped with a grip safety and a trigger safety.

 

[Greggy_D]

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CV67PAT wrote:

Autosurgeon says it was a springfield XD .40. I don't have a working knowledge of them.

I am very familiar with glocks. I've had one for 23 years. Glocks do not AD. Plain and simple. You're right that the trigger has to be finger f***ed to get them to fire.

From Wiki about the XD (internal safety sounds similar to Glock):

Where the XD is unusual is in the presence of a grip safety that will not allow the pistol to fire without depressing a lever on the rear of the grip. This feature is present on some older pistols such as the M1911, however few modern pistols include a grip safety. The grip safety and CZ-75-style deeply inset backstrap are salient features of the XD. Other features include a function of the recoil spring guide rod that acts as a standoff device. The end of the rod protrudes from under the barrel and keeps the slide in battery when pressed against an object such as somebody's chest in contact-distance self-defense situations. This prevents the slide from being moved back because the device pushes the surface area of objects away from the slide, thus increasing the chance that the gun will function normally.[6]
In addition to the trigger and grip safeties, there are three other safeties on the XD. The drop safety prevents the striker from releasing if the gun is dropped or exposed to a significant impact. An out of battery safety prevents firing unless the slide is completely in battery. Further, as of 2008, 4" and 5" XD .45 ACP Service models are available with an optional ambidextrous frame-mounted thumb safety. This option is only available for the 45 ACP XD at this time.

 

[SpringerXDacp]

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Greggy_D wrote:

CV67PAT wrote:

Autosurgeon says it was a springfield XD .40. I don't have a working knowledge of them.

I am very familiar with glocks. I've had one for 23 years. Glocks do not AD. Plain and simple. You're right that the trigger has to be finger f***ed to get them to fire.

From Wiki about the XD (internal safety sounds similar to Glock):

This is correct. The grip safety is only a safety when you do not have a grip on the pistol. Other than that, all XD's without the manual safety is essentially a Glock, in terms of safeties,when you dohave a grip on the pistol.

Where the XD is unusual is in the presence of a grip safety that will not allow the pistol to fire without depressing a lever on the rear of the grip. This feature is present on some older pistols such as the M1911, however few modern pistols include a grip safety. The grip safety and CZ-75-style deeply inset backstrap are salient features of the XD. Other features include a function of the recoil spring guide rod that acts as a standoff device. The end of the rod protrudes from under the barrel and keeps the slide in battery when pressed against an object such as somebody's chest in contact-distance self-defense situations. This prevents the slide from being moved back because the device pushes the surface area of objects away from the slide, thus increasing the chance that the gun will function normally.[6]
In addition to the trigger and grip safeties, there are three other safeties on the XD. The drop safety prevents the striker from releasing if the gun is dropped or exposed to a significant impact. An out of battery safety prevents firing unless the slide is completely in battery. Further, as of 2008, 4" and 5" XD .45 ACP Service models are available with an optional ambidextrous frame-mounted thumb safety. This option is only available for the 45 ACP XD at this time.

Edit: Grammar

 

[Michigander]

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This will be a black eye on on our cause. Something that gets brought up routinely in news paper articles and things. It will need to be scrutinized, scrutinized again, and pointed out as being wrong and utterly reckless every time it's brought up. If we make excuses of blame external causes, we will look like fools.

As much as I hate Michigan's unconstitutional laws, I disagree with any idea that this is an example of a fault in the laws. This is an example of disobeying 1 of 4 very specific and unforgiving safety rules that have no room at all for error. With or without laws, a chambered gun tends to fire when the safety is depressed and the trigger is pulled.

Some may remember my ND, where my CZ52 fell on the ground, landed on the hammer, and shot me. That was faulty equipment, but I make no excuses about what happened and blame myself completely. I allowed a loaded gun to point at me, so it was my fault. I deserve ridicule for what happened, and I am lucky I wasn't cited by the police. There can be no excuses in this case either, especially in light of the fact it was 100% operator error.

I've said it before and now I'll say it again, WE NEED A DAMN THREAD OR ENTIRE FORUM SUBSECTION ON SAFETY! This site attracts people to guns that might not have any experience with them. This is dangerous if not handled properly.

I don't wanna die the next time some new gun owner doesn't understand how to keep his finger out of the trigger guard, or worse yet points it around recklessly. And we DON'T need another of these to happen. We need highly visible info on this. PLEASE MIKE AND JPIERCE!!! It's lives we're talking about, and perhaps legislation if enough @#$% ups happen. It might not be OCDO's responsibility to make this information clear, but at least it would make it easier for newcomers to get, and lessen any anti arguments that we're causing this sort of thing to happen. If the information is provided, and people ignore it, it will be as easy as blaming a drunk driver for drinking. If it isn't, we all get blamed.

This is also an example of why if you don't understand your gun, or if you don't understand the 4 rules, DON'T CARRY! Ask for help, and people here will eagerly step up to the plate to teach you.

 

[autosurgeon]

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Well said and I agree that safety needs to be kept in the forefront!

I have been called anal about the way I check and recheck a firearm to see that it is unloaded... but hey I had a Gun go off once due to a faulty sear spring and I thought it was unloaded... luckily this caused no harm and I learned a valuable lesson!

Now I check it visually and then do the finger test and then look again. As soon as put the slide back into battery I apply the safety if present even though the gun is empty.

I have through practice developed a process that I do not deviate from when checking a firearm and clearing it. It works for all guns.

1. apply a firm grip with finger away from the trigger.

2. Open bolt, slide, or cyl.

3. remove rounds present and inspect chamber visually

4. apply finger to chamber to check for cartridge

5. visually inspect again.

6. close slide and apply safety, if rifle close bolt and apply safety, if revolver close cylinder.

7. at this time gun is ready for transport or storage.

8. if handing to another person to inspect I would open bolt or slide or swing out cyl and hand to them barrel down butt first or if in the case of a rifle barrel pointed in a safe direction.

This is my procedure and the way I handle all guns... I have gleaned this from reading, courses and personal experience.... is it perfect most likely not but one AD was enough for me and so I will continue to be anal about this!

 

[PDinDetroit]

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Michigander wrote:

This will be a black eye on on our cause. Something that gets brought up routinely in news paper articles and things. It will need to be scrutinized, scrutinized again, and pointed out as being wrong and utterly reckless every time it's brought up. If we make excuses of blame external causes, we will look like fools.

I disagree with any idea that this is an example of a fault in the laws. This is an example of disobeying 1 of 4 very specific and unforgiving safety rules that have no room at all for error. With or without laws, a chambered gun tends to fire when the safety is depressed and the trigger is pulled.

Some may remember my ND, where my CZ52 fell on the ground, landed on the hammer, and shot me. That was faulty equipment, but I make no excuses about what happened and blame myself completely. I allowed a loaded gun to point at me, so it was my fault. I deserve ridicule for what happened, and I am lucky I wasn't cited by the police. There can be no excuses in this case either, especially in light of the fact it was 100% operator error.

I've said it before and now I'll say it again, WE NEED A DAMN THREAD OR ENTIRE FORUM SUBSECTION ON SAFETY! This site attracts people to guns that might not have any experience with them. This is dangerous if not handled properly.

I don't wanna die the next time some new gun owner doesn't understand how to keep his finger out of the trigger guard, or worse yet points it around recklessly. And we DON'T need another of these to happen. We need highly visible info on this. PLEASE MIKE AND JPIERCE!!! It's lives we're talking about, and perhaps legislation if enough @#$% ups happen. It might not be OCDO's responsibility to make this information clear, but at least it would make it easier for newcomers to get, and lessen any anti arguments that we're causing this sort of thing to happen. If the information is provided, and people ignore it, it will be as easy as blaming a drunk driver for drinking. If it isn't, we all get blamed.

This is also an example of why if you don't understand your gun, or if you don't understand the 4 rules, DON'T CARRY! Ask for help, and people here will eagerly step up to the plate to teach you.

+1000 on the need for a Safety Forum Subsection.

I would like to see it for different firearms, as my S&W M&P 9 or 45 can only be in Condition 0, 3, or 4 without the manual thumb safety. Even Condition 0 would need to be modified for these pistols as they are Striker-Fired with a hinged-trigger that acts like a glock trigger safety (not sure you could actually call it "cocked").

Link: http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

 

[Citizen]

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Michigander wrote:

SNIP This will be a black eye...

I agree this is not the sort of image we would prefer; but lets notvalidate the anti-gunners by blowing it out of proportion ourselves with respect to the seriousness of the impact on image.

This forum has been up and running for what? Three years? One ND/AD in three years is too many, but its not something to get real worked up about from an image angle. Its going to happen. Trying tocreate acondition where it literally never happens isfutile. Its going to happen again.

ND's and AD's occur. People make mistakes. We might as well get used to it. As the OC movement grows, its going to attract people who are more capable and less capable, some with better judgement, and some who think they know it all and never make mistakes.

Don't overlook that the Four Rules offer layered protection.That there are four rules is, in a sense,a testament to the idea that oneruleis not enough to prevent harm. Recognition that one rule, guaranteed to bebroken from time to time, probably wouldn't be enough with absent-minded, complacency-prone Man.

In this case the gun was still pointed in a safe direction and little if anyphysical damage was done. One rule still observed saved tragedy or property damage.

I do agree adedicated safety thread for new guys would be good, or at least the Four Rules posted on the main pagelikethe IDPA website.

 

[Nutczak]

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Anyone else carry an XD or an XDm? I find the XDm kinda funky to unload or pull back the slide because the grip safety needs to be depressed to do so.

I have been carrying without one in the chamber because of it, I would feelway more comfortable with my XDm if I could rack the slide to eject a chambered round without needing to depress the grip safety.

I can understand how someone new to the XD's could finger the trigger negligently if they are not fully familiar with the gun.

Not an excuse for what happened, but possibly a reason that could have been engineered differently to avoid just such a situation.

Anyways, keep your booger-hook out of the trigger guard unless you are firing!!

Sorry to hear about the incident guys, you have worked hard to get where you are, I hope this does not cause lasting problems.

 

[Sonora Rebel]

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'Wondering why he was arrested as there was no 'intent'. 'Have a S-A 1911... and I'm wonderin' if he might'a been manually decocking it with a round in the tube for whatever reason? (OR) Ejected the round with the mag in it... dropped the mag 'n pulled the trigger on what he thought was an empty chamber. Yeah... sounds dumb, but I watched a LtCdr do exactly that (as I was yellin' "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!") with an M-16.

Your 'law' creates a potentially dangerous situation in that it required more weapon handling/cycling.. even brandishing to comply. 'Course the morons who write 'n pass these lawshave zilch gun smarts to begin with. What 'looks good' on paper and the actual dynamic of the doing are quite different.

 

[autosurgeon]

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

'Wondering why he was arrested as there was no 'intent'. 'Have a S-A 1911... and I'm wonderin' if he might'a been manually decocking it with a round in the tube for whatever reason? (OR) Ejected the round with the mag in it... dropped the mag 'n pulled the trigger on what he thought was an empty chamber. Yeah... sounds dumb, but I watched a LtCdr do exactly that (as I was yellin' "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!") with an M-16.

Your 'law' creates a potentially dangerous situation in that it required more weapon handling/cycling.. even brandishing to comply. 'Course the morons who write 'n pass these lawshave zilch gun smarts to begin with. What 'looks good' on paper and the actual dynamic of the doing are quite different.

I think the part I highlighted in red is what he must have done based on how this gun works!

I agree that the law does require too much handeling... and handeling in a noisy possibly distraction loaded environment. At home with fewer distractions he may have no trouble.

 

[steve]

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It happened,

live and learn let's not make this guy think he is a horrible person over this mistake.

 

[autosurgeon]

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I am sure he feels badly enough! However I still think this discussion of how it could have happened is good as it may help someone else not do it themselves!

 

[Taurus850CIA]

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

'Wondering why he was arrested as there was no 'intent'. 'Have a S-A 1911... and I'm wonderin' if he might'a been manually decocking it with a round in the tube for whatever reason? (OR) Ejected the round with the mag in it... dropped the mag 'n pulled the trigger on what he thought was an empty chamber. Yeah... sounds dumb, but I watched a LtCdr do exactly that (as I was yellin' "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!") with an M-16.

Your 'law' creates a potentially dangerous situation in that it required more weapon handling/cycling.. even brandishing to comply. 'Course the morons who write 'n pass these lawshave zilch gun smarts to begin with. What 'looks good' on paper and the actual dynamic of the doing are quite different.

A friend of mine did this exact thing, and discharged his handgun as well. He was also pointing it in a safe direction. He says he pulls the trigger to check that the chamber is empty. I was dumbfounded when he told me that. It's a bad habit that I'll bet he will never again commit. Why he pulled the trigger is beyond me, but some people aren't taught well. Even during dry fire excercises, I'll check and recheck the chamber/cylinder multiple times "just to be sure". It's ridiculous how often I'll check. Not saying I won't do the same thing sometime in the future, but I do everything in my power to avoid it. I have a 9 year old daughter who started shooting at 7. I'll randomly ask her what the rules of gun safety are, and she can recite them to me, and does well while shooting. I hope to instill in her the respect for the potential danger that was taught to me. She's doing well so far.
Accidents happen, we're human. It sucks, but it could have been worse, as has been said already. Count your blessings.

 

[autosurgeon]

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In competition the make you do this on the range... IE pull the trigger to show clear! He could have learned it that way or from watching pistol comp on TV..

 

[Taurus850CIA]

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I was not aware of that. I don't like it, though. I'd have a hell of a hard time with that practice.

 

[autosurgeon]

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You are not the only one! I hate it BC it sets a training precedent in your mind!