States that require a permit to open carry..

[danbus]

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Guess I'll chime in. I have a tad bit experience dealing with OCing and to provide ID.

It's my understanding that in a state (such has VA) that allows OC, with or without a permit, still does not constitute a requirement to show ID (unless said otherwise by law; i.e. VA has a law that requires to show ID + CHP while CCing, but that's a long shot).

A LEO must establish reasonable suspicion in order to detain a citizen. Of couse we all know that means articulate facts. Not hunches, guesses, gut feelings, or any "could be's". FACTS. If you lived in a state that requires a permit to OC (without any statue requiring ID and/or permit on demand while OCing) then it's reasonable to say that you don't even need to have a permit to OC (not that I'm condoning it).

My logic is, that if a LEO notices a citizen OCing, and wants to "make sure" that said citizen has permit, he would have to establish RS first. He can ask for ID all he wants, but without RS, he can kick rocks.

What possible RS could a LEO have for detaining a citizen who OCs?

 

[Armed4Life]

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The Supreme Court has ruled that checkpoints are "seizures" with respect to the 4th amendment. And since checkpoints (by definition) are performed without reasonable suspicion or probable cause....they are Unconstitutional IMO.

 

[djstaehlin]

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danbus wrote:

My logic is, that if a LEO notices a citizen OCing, and wants to "make sure" that said citizen has permit, he would have to establish RS first. He can ask for ID all he wants, but without RS, he can kick rocks.

What possible RS could a LEO have for detaining a citizen who OCs?

In Minnesota, where a permit to carry a pistol is required to carry a pistol either concealed or openly, that is not the case.

The state Supreme Court recently held that the police do not need an articulable suspicion to stop a person carrying a firearm to determine whether or not he or she has a permit.

http://www.consumerlawstpaul.com/messages/80.htm

Simply put, the Minnesota Supreme Court held that there is a statute that sets a general prohibition against carrying a pistol in public and that the possession of a permit to carry a pistol is an affirmative defense. A police officer witnessing (or receiving a report regarding) a person in possession of a pistol, may assume that the person is committing a criminal offense and may stop that person to determine if that is the case.

I don't like it, but until the legislature changes the law (fat chance), that is the way it works in Minnesota.

DJ

 

[danbus]

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djstaehlin wrote:

danbus wrote:

My logic is, that if a LEO notices a citizen OCing, and wants to "make sure" that said citizen has permit, he would have to establish RS first. He can ask for ID all he wants, but without RS, he can kick rocks.

What possible RS could a LEO have for detaining a citizen who OCs?

In Minnesota, where a permit to carry a pistol is required to carry a pistol either concealed or openly, that is not the case.

The state Supreme Court recently held that the police do not need an articulable suspicion to stop a person carrying a firearm to determine whether or not he or she has a permit.

http://www.consumerlawstpaul.com/messages/80.htm

Simply put, the Minnesota Supreme Court held that there is a statute that sets a general prohibition against carrying a pistol in public and that the possession of a permit to carry a pistol is an affirmative defense. A police officer witnessing (or receiving a report regarding) a person in possession of a pistol, may assume that the person is committing a criminal offense and may stop that person to determine if that is the case.

I don't like it, but until the legislature changes the law (fat chance), that is the way it works in Minnesota.

DJ

I firmly stand corrected.

But after reading, it seems that Minnesota has a statue to require ID + permit during OCing. That would in case nullify my argument.

It's my understanding that in a state (such has VA) that allows OC, with or without a permit, still does not constitute a requirement to show ID (unless said otherwise by law; i.e. VA has a law that requires to show ID + CHP while CCing, but that's a long shot).

The law is very very tricky. And it seems so to vary from state to state. However, with current VA law standing, the LEO must have RS to detain. But that is only for VA. I cannot speak on other states.

Thank you for the find!

 

[Fallguy]

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Very interesting djstaehlin. While I don't know of any cases in TN, I would say the same applies. In general it is illegal to carry a firearm in public. T.C.A. 39-17-1307. T.C.A. 39-17-1308 provides a list of defenses to 39-17-1307 of which having a Handgun Carry Permit is one. TN law also says you must present your HCP upon demand of a LEO.

I guess the difference as far as driving goes there is nothing that says it is illegal to drive, just that you must have a license to do so.