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Stopped by Kent PD today

Citizen

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If you voluntarily Give them your ID, it becomes a SEIZURE!

I'm not so sure about that. Do you have a cite to refresh our minds?

What I vaguely recall is that a consensually provided identity document can become a seizure if held unreasonably long.

(Chuckle.) I suppose you could screw with them by consensually providing the identity document, then in the next breath say, "I revoke my consent. Give it back." If they don't, then you could claim an illegal seizure.
 
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Citizen

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Mmmmm... I disagree. I think it means they believe that anyone (other than a uniformed LEO) carrying a gun is a criminal until proven otherwise. Still a wrong mindset, but focussed on a behaviour they can see (OC) rather than a concept they can't see (self-defense as a right).

:)

Are you saying cops is knuckle-draggers who can't think conceptually? I mean, the cop poster did say earlier something along the lines that it was delusional to think they wouldn't ask to see ID.

:)
 

1245A Defender

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north mason county, Washington, USA
well,,,

:)

Are you saying cops is knuckle-draggers who can't think conceptually? I mean, the cop poster did say earlier something along the lines that it was delusional to think they wouldn't ask to see ID.

:)

he is just trying to tell us/me/you/them that he will ask for ID,
that he expects all LEO to ask for ID,
that an OCer will be viewed with suspicion, and needs investigating,
it would be Moronic to expect to go about your lawful business without unwelcome intrusion.

hundreds of OCers go about their business unmolested by ignorant LEOs every day.
they must not be on macleans beat.
 
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Schlepnier

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Yelm, Washington USA
Fortunately the only LEOs i have had contact with while i OC have been friends so there hasn't been an issue. however my first responce to the OP situation is to ask what they RAS is for contacting me, and if they say "open carry" i will remind them that it is legal to OC in washington state and ask them again what the RAS for contacting me is, what crime are they investigating as OC is not a criminal act. if the subject goes back to my OCing then i had them this little paper i carry with me.

1. Non-consensual police stops of open carriers for simply open carrying is per se unlawful.

As you should already know, it is not unlawful to openly carry handguns in Washington, and that like most states, no license is required to open carry on foot, and local ordinances to the contrary are unlawful as a matter of state preemption law. RCW 9.41.290. The United States Supreme Court has established that it is a violation of the Fourth Amendment for the police to seize a person absent reasonable articulable suspicion ("RAS") of crime afoot. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968). Accordingly, the Washington Court of Appeals has recently affirmed a trial court's holding that Washington law "does not and, under the Constitution, cannot prohibit the mere [open] carrying of a firearm in public." State v. Casad, 139 Wash.App. 1032 (Wash. App.Div.2 2007) (suppressing evidence of unlawful possession of firearms because stop of Defendant was not grounded in reasonable articulable suspicion of any crime).

Further, even during a valid Terry stop, the United States Supreme Court forbids police to even conduct a light pat down or seize weapons unless the subsequent to RAS for the stop, the "an officer is justified in believing that the individual whose suspicious behavior he is investigating at close range is [both] armed and presently dangerous to the officer or to others." 392 U.S. at 24. Stated another way, only "o long as the officer is [both] entitled to make a forcible stop, and has reason to believe that the suspect is armed **and dangerous** . . .may [he] conduct a weapons search limited in scope to this protective purpose." Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S. 143, 146 (1972) (emphasis added). So even if there were there to come a time that a Washington law enforcement officer properly seizes a person pursuant to RAS for brief investigatory purposes, the officer is not entitled to seize an openly carry weapon absent "reason to believe that the suspect is . . . [also presently] dangerous." Id. Should an open carrier stopped validly under Terry consensually produce a Concealed Pistol License, this fact weighs heavily against any officer's claim that the suspect is "presently dangerous" such that the gun maybe lawfully seized and serial numbers obtained. Accordingly, suppression of any evidence obtained in seizing the gun is likely under these circumstances.

2. Nonconsensual stops of open carriers to demand identification or check gun serial numbers is unlawful in Washington.

A mere report of a man with a gun is not grounds for a Terry stop. Florida v. J. L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000). Americans cannot be required to carry and produce identification credentials on demand to the police. Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352 (1983). Washington does not have a "stop and ID" statute. However, even where a state enacts a "stop and ID" statute, stop must be limited to situations where RAS exists of a crime, and further, stop subject's statement of his name satisfies the ID requirement as Kolender, discussed supra, has not been overruled. Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004). Even where a state has established a duty to carry a license for some activity, absent RAS for the stop, the license cannot be demanded. State v. Peters, 2008 WL 2185754 (Wis. App. I Dist. 2008) (driver of vehicle has no duty to produce driver's license absent RAS) (citing Hiibel). Law enforcement officers seizing persons for refusal to show identification are "not entitled to dismissal of . . . [42 USC 1983 claims] based on qualified immunity." Stufflebeam v. Harris, 521 F.3d 884, 889 (8th Cir. 2008).


If that isn't enough i can always request a supervisor or a similar course of action, what i will never do personally is be in a hurry enough to willingly forfiet my rights.
 

Badger Johnson

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What about asking 'Are you asking me to waive my fourth amendment rights?'

Follow this by 'why am I being detained?'

If they say no to each, then ask 'am I free to go', or 'ok, I am free to go' (statement) and slowly start to walk away.

I would assume, reading the messages that the OP DID NOT HAVE HIS RECORDER ON. This it the biggest mistake, imo. Your recounting is now complete hearsay, and you really don't know exactly what was said (due to stress).

$.02
 

amlevin

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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Here comes the evasions, folks. Tautological has a different meaning than repetitive, and an entirely different connotation, and implication during debate.

But, enough. I'm not gonna argue with him.



A rhetorical tautology can also be defined as a series of statements that comprise an argument, whereby the statements are constructed in such a way that the truth of the proposition is guaranteed or that the truth of the proposition cannot be disputed by defining a term in terms of another self-referentially. Consequently, the statement conveys no useful information regardless of its length or complexity making it unfalsifiable. It is a way of formulating a description such that it masquerades as an explanation when the real reason for the phenomena cannot be independently derived

A simpler explanation would be " it's Bull$h!t".

Psst! Citizen, this is a forum, not a game of scrabble. No extra points for trying to use every word in a thesaurus. It makes one seem:

pe·dan·tic   
[puh-dan-tik]
–adjective
1.
ostentatious in one's learning.
2.
overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, especially in teaching.
 
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Aaron1124

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Kent, Washington, USA
What about asking 'Are you asking me to waive my fourth amendment rights?'

Follow this by 'why am I being detained?'

If they say no to each, then ask 'am I free to go', or 'ok, I am free to go' (statement) and slowly start to walk away.

I would assume, reading the messages that the OP DID NOT HAVE HIS RECORDER ON. This it the biggest mistake, imo. Your recounting is now complete hearsay, and you really don't know exactly what was said (due to stress).

$.02

I wasn't stressed at all. In fact, it was a very casual encounter. The officers and I were chatting, and joking around. Far from any situation that many are jumping to. At the end of the conversation, he thanked me for my time, and wished me a great evening.
 

Contrarian

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Rights v. permissions

Gotta say that I'm on the fence about this...

In the described situation, the encounter was polite and orderly with no laws broken: permission on the ID issue was given, and so on. Cops did their thing and all go home safe and dry. Can this not be seen as an education to the police that not all OC citizens are strident flag-waving in-your-face Constitutionalists, but merely educated individuals interested in self protection?

BUT- The cops were in error: if they were conversant with the law ( as should the dispatcher have been) there would not be a need for any conversation at all.

To me this is not a win-lose type of thing, but not a win-win either - I do not want unnecessary police interactions if they can be avoided.
 

VW_Factor

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thats how they get you,,,, trick you into thinking they just want to be friends.
and he asked of he could see it,,, didnt ask if he could Run it.
and you were in a hurry so you gave it up,, to save time,, FAIL!

Not all of us have the time to risk detainment or arrest... Or sitting in a holding cell if things go bad.

Given a similar situation I am sure I would do the same under time constraints.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Gotta say that I'm on the fence about this...

In the described situation, the encounter was polite and orderly with no laws broken: permission on the ID issue was given, and so on. Cops did their thing and all go home safe and dry. Can this not be seen as an education to the police that not all OC citizens are strident flag-waving in-your-face Constitutionalists, but merely educated individuals interested in self protection?

BUT- The cops were in error: if they were conversant with the law ( as should the dispatcher have been) there would not be a need for any conversation at all.

To me this is not a win-lose type of thing, but not a win-win either - I do not want unnecessary police interactions if they can be avoided.

I'm not a flag waiver at all, and take offense at those that deem protecting our constitutional values as something negative in any sense. (nothing specifically directed at you in this statement)
 
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hermannr

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Okanogan Highland
I have no problem with giving the officer my ID, as long as he is willing to show me his. Again, it depends on the time factor too, however, I am rarely in a hurry these days.

Now if he was to ask for my firearm...that would be a different matter.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I have no problem with giving the officer my ID, as long as he is willing to show me his. Again, it depends on the time factor too, however, I am rarely in a hurry these days.

Now if he was to ask for my firearm...that would be a different matter.

I try not to carry ID and normally carry 'sterile'.
 

amzbrady

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Marysville, Washington, USA
I wasn't stressed at all. In fact, it was a very casual encounter. The officers and I were chatting, and joking around. Far from any situation that many are jumping to. At the end of the conversation, he thanked me for my time, and wished me a great evening.

Whether they say it or not, ANYTHING you say can and will be used against you in a court of law, (if it were to come to that). You can not EVER go back and change or take back anything that has already been said. They didnt show up to make a friend, they are there for 1 reason, to do a job, sometimes outside of company policy.
 

hermannr

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The point to be made by requesting the officer's ID?

There are more people that attempt to represent themselves as LEO's, that are not, then there are felons stupid enough to OC.
 
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maclean

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The point to be made by requesting the officer's ID?

There are more people that attempt to represent themselves as LEO's, that are not, then there are felons stupid enough to OC.

It's a reasonable request, and if safety allows it why not?

Everyone has an ID card, it's called a commission card.
 
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Badger Johnson

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I wasn't stressed at all. In fact, it was a very casual encounter. The officers and I were chatting, and joking around. Far from any situation that many are jumping to. At the end of the conversation, he thanked me for my time, and wished me a great evening.

You are being naive. They are quite experienced in appearing to be casual, since it's their job. I'm not saying you did something very wrong (except that you failed to have your recorder on), I'm just saying that you contributed to them having a false expectation and possibly set back OC rights by being so cavalier and giving up rights that are hard fought to keep. Next time turn on your recorder and consider saying 'are you asking me to waive my 4th amendment rights' and see what transpires.
 

maclean

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You are being naive. They are quite experienced in appearing to be casual, since it's their job. I'm not saying you did something very wrong (except that you failed to have your recorder on), I'm just saying that you contributed to them having a false expectation and possibly set back OC rights by being so cavalier and giving up rights that are hard fought to keep. Next time turn on your recorder and consider saying 'are you asking me to waive my 4th amendment rights' and see what transpires.

I know Aaron, and have not found him to be particularly naive.

The argument that one person cooperating "sets back" someone elses rights is specious.
 

Citizen

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A simpler explanation would be " it's Bull$h!t".

Psst! Citizen, this is a forum, not a game of scrabble. No extra points for trying to use every word in a thesaurus. It makes one seem:

pe·dan·tic   
[puh-dan-tik]
–adjective
1.
ostentatious in one's learning.
2.
overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, especially in teaching.

ROFLMAO!!!!

OK. That was good! The redneck in me loved that! :D :D :D

With that said, I came across that big word (tautology) a while back on a libertarian website. I generally, but not always, look them up just so I can understand what the author is trying to say. As soon as I read a certain post above, I recognized that poster's debate tactic--from having looked up that word a while back.

And, why not add it to our lexicon of debate tactics. We already have strawman and ad hominem. No law says we can't have more. The more ways to knock down bad arguments, the better, no?

Anyway, thanks for the laugh. I needed that. :D
 
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Citizen

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I'm not a flag waiver at all, and take offense at those that deem protecting our constitutional values as something negative in any sense. (nothing specifically directed at you in this statement)

"Officer, something over a million Americans have died defending these rights. I'm not going to spit on their graves by waiving them."
 
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