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Well, I've finally had it I guess. I did like the place, I even felt bad for not using it on a few occasions. But today was the final straw so to speak. :?
Honestly I'm not too happy about having to quit going there, because I do like a lot of the folks there, but just out of principle it will be hard for me to let this one go.
Today I had almost completely made up my mind on the Mossberg 590, but the ever-helpful salesman suggested that I also consider the Remington 870 tactical model. After handling it, it had a very smooth action and felt more balanced to me. It also had a pistol grip that fit my hand perfectly and the recoil pad was one of the nicest I've seen. I liked it more than the Mossberg, and I was very glad he had showed me it, even though it was about $50 more expensive. I liked it so much that it wouldn’t have even been a decision; I would have bought it right then, if it had the ghost ring sights. What it had was a bead sight on a small raised platform though, so I wanted to compare both of the shotgun’s sights before making a final decision. The store was very busy at this time, so when I compared the sights on the two shotguns, I pointed both of them behind the counter.
The salesman had made sure that both weapons were unloaded multiple times. I looked at each one twice, and he checked each one when he picked it up and before he put it back. Now, being rather sensitive to the fact that people don’t like to have guns pointed at them, I didn’t want to point the gun at an area where customers were or could inadvertently walk by. There were so many customers and employees on either side of the counter on both my left and right sides, that that pointing it down the length of the counter was not an option. People were walking all through the store as well, so I didn’t want to just point it out there either. Hence the reason I pointed it behind the counter. I did put my finger on the trigger once, for a split second, after making sure that it was all clear, to see how far it was to the trigger. I mean, these are things that I am going to have to check before I spend hundreds of dollars on an item. For the rest of the time I had my hand in what is it's "natural" position, with the trigger finger extended straight out as if I were pointing it and resting on the side of the firearm. This is how I ALWAYS hold firearms when I'm not ready to shoot. The only time I touch the trigger at all is for a second on the day I actually plan to BUY the gun for sure. Plus, I don't even make them get things out that I'm not interested in, or able to buy. I had looked at the Mossberg earlier this week and never even touched the trigger. When I came in with the money though, that's a different story. I will be checking everything before I buy it.
The salesman who was helping me was standing in front of me and just slightly to my right. At that point I had the Mossberg aimed slightly down and to the left of the salesman who was helping me. Also note that I was standing right up next to the glass, and I couldn’t lower the gun enough to not aim the Mossberg below someone's legs (Even if they were all the way back with the ammo) from where I was, because the counter was physically in the way.
At this point another salesperson, who was on the employee side of the counter, apparently came up on my right and walked behind the salesman helping me. The Mossberg was pointed maybe 20 degrees to the left of the salesman and slightly down from horizontal.
The salesperson that was walking just went right behind him (And once again he walked behind him, so I didn’t realize he was coming until he was right there) and continued on heading directly towards the area where the gun was pointing. The salesman who was helping me must have noticed the other salesperson walking around behind him, because right around the same time he placed his hand on the barrel and directed it down until it reached the counter and couldn’t go down any further, and then to my right, furthur towards himself but not so that it was actually pointed at him. The salesperson that was walking continued, and thus he was in front of the barrel for a short time period. It was for maybe one second, I can’t imagine it was much more and it may have been less. During that time, and all of the time up to it, I recall having my trigger finger extended and resting against the side of the gun's frame, not even near the trigger guard or the trigger itself. I had cycled the action about 4 times, and the gun had been checked as clear by the salesman helping me 3 times already. I had no ammunition on me and there was none anywhere on the entire length of the counter, or within reach of me. I also wasn’t just pointing it at him, in fact I didn’t even know he was coming until he had pretty much walked right in front of me. At that point the salesman put his hand on the gun and moved it to the right, just as the other salesperson was going to walk right in front of it. Since he pulled it to my right, he put it directly into his path. Anyway, right after he walked by the barrel and had continued on maybe 3 or 4 more feet, he stopped, turned and appeared to stare at me for a second; then he raised his voice a bit (Basically he took a stern authoritative tone) and stated (Btw, it’s now been about 10 seconds since he walked in front of it), “DON’T POINT THAT AT ME!” As if I had raised it up and purposely pointed it at him right when he got in front of me, just to "see what a person looks like through the ghost ring sights." A few seconds later, as he sat down perhaps 4 feet to my left, right in front of the customers he was making a sale to, he muttered, quite clearly and awfully loud (I’m sure he wanted me to hear it), “Dumbass.” I must say, this statement got to me a bit. I didn’t like or appreciate it.
This is an armed individual as far as I know, as the other times I’ve been there plenty of employees have been, and it seems like he is one of the folks I’ve seen carrying. Since he sat down immediately after walking in front of and right past the gun I was holding, I didn’t notice if he was carrying or not today. The point is, he doesn’t need to be raising his voice at me or anyone else even if he’s not carrying, but even more so if he was. When I carry, I make sure that I don’t do anything that could instigate a fight or argument because that is highly irresponsible when you have a loaded firearm on your person. You don’t do things that could cause a situation to escalate further. This action made me extremely uncomfortable, as I even felt (Although I do very seriously doubt that anything would happen) somewhat concerned for my safety. I felt like there was no way for me to ask him what had just occurred, or if he was joking or what, because he might then take it to the next level. He certainly didn’t smile or laugh, so I assume this was dead serious. And since he was acting like I was pointing a gun at him, how do I know he wont take that as a good enough reason to draw his gun on me? How do I know if I say, “Did you just call me a dumbass?” that he wont become so crazy that he’d do something like that? I don’t know this guy, so I won’t just assume that nothing can happen.
The fact is, he walked directly in front of the barrel on his own two legs. I had the barrel raised and was already pointing it in a safe direction, he then just walked right in front of it and decided to get nasty with me as if I had forced him to do that. He didn’t ask me to do anything with it before walking in front of it. He didn’t just duck down below it. He didn’t notify me in any way that he was going to be walking in front of it. All he really did was tell me, after walking directly in front of a gun I was holding (And in front of a lot of other customers/employees) that I was a “dumbass.”
I went through all of the possibilities for what I could have done in this situation, and I can’t see how I did anything wrong. He should have notified me that he was about to walk in front of me if he was concerned for his safety and noticed that I obviously did not see him yet. Here are the possibilities I see for what would have happened if I had moved it in any direction other than pretty much where it was pointed:
1. If I had raised the gun up at that point, I would have ended up sighting this salesperson’s HEAD in the process.
2. I could not lower the gun to the point that it wouldn’t have had any part of his body sighted either, because the counter was in the way. It would have been pointed at his knees perhaps, instead of his abdomen, for that split second. (Which is what the salesman forced me to do)
3. If I had moved it much more than 20 degrees to the right I would have targeted the salesman who was helping me, and also would have had to go right through the other salesperson’s path.
4. If I had moved it significantly to the left I would have targeted the other customers and employees standing on either side of the counter.
5. If I had only moved it slightly to the left, I would have targeted the area above the seat where he was about to sit, or targeted another area in which he was about to be walking, which still wouldn’t have avoided the situation.
6. The only option would have been an immediate upward motion sweeping slightly to left, but I was prevented from doing that. Honestly though, I would assume this guy just doesn’t care since he WALKED RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME.
The salesman who was helping me directed the gun for me when he noticed the guy coming around him, I mean he physically directed the barrel with his hand. I didn’t have anything to do with where the barrel went at that point. I did not, at any time, “track” the moving salesperson with the weapon, nor did I raise it up from a lowered position right as he walked by. I had it raised for what I would estimate to have been at least 10 to 20 seconds before he walked by. I had been looking at the shotguns and pointing them in that same direction for a few minutes actually, to compare the sights, which is what I was paying attention to. I did not, at any time, intentionally sight any human being within the store.
After this happened I told the salesman helping me that I didn’t think I could purchase the weapon at that point, or at least until someone clarified what had just occurred. His response was “Well, you don’t have to buy it.” So I gave it back to him and he put it up, and then rightly continued on to help some other customers. I was rather upset about it and I wanted to talk to a manager right then, so I talked to another employee for a moment about it. He was very nice and helpful and he said that he could bring it to the attention of a manager if I wanted. Since the store was so busy and since I don’t like getting folks in trouble, I told him it was alright, but that I just didn’t understand why that situation had occurred in the first place. He said that he could bring it up after hours and I said that would be fine
I am very torn at this point about what to do as I like the store, and I have always had good experiences there before. However, now I don’t feel comfortable asking to view a firearm in that store again. Knowing that if an employee chooses to walk in front of the barrel without even trying to notify me beforehand, I’ll be the one to get yelled at, and who knows what else. He obviously took it very seriously, as if I had intentionally raised a gun and pointed it at him. That’s a serious accusation to make to an unarmed individual when you’re carrying, and as I said it made me extremely uncomfortable. If it was a joke, nobody laughed, so he might want to fill me in on that one if it was the case.
I also honestly don’t know at this point how valued I am as a customer. Obviously he thinks I’m just an idiot toying around or something. In reality I was within 5 minutes of making my second purchase in that store. Not only that, but had I recommended somewhere else to my friend, he wouldn’t have purchased his firearm there either.
If all I am is a liability and annoyance for the employees, then I certainly wont bother anyone in there again. All I wanted to do was decide whether I could deal with the bead sight or if I wanted the ghost rings badly enough to give up the added “smoothness” and good overall feel of the Remington that I handled.
Well, I've finally had it I guess. I did like the place, I even felt bad for not using it on a few occasions. But today was the final straw so to speak. :?
Honestly I'm not too happy about having to quit going there, because I do like a lot of the folks there, but just out of principle it will be hard for me to let this one go.
Today I had almost completely made up my mind on the Mossberg 590, but the ever-helpful salesman suggested that I also consider the Remington 870 tactical model. After handling it, it had a very smooth action and felt more balanced to me. It also had a pistol grip that fit my hand perfectly and the recoil pad was one of the nicest I've seen. I liked it more than the Mossberg, and I was very glad he had showed me it, even though it was about $50 more expensive. I liked it so much that it wouldn’t have even been a decision; I would have bought it right then, if it had the ghost ring sights. What it had was a bead sight on a small raised platform though, so I wanted to compare both of the shotgun’s sights before making a final decision. The store was very busy at this time, so when I compared the sights on the two shotguns, I pointed both of them behind the counter.
The salesman had made sure that both weapons were unloaded multiple times. I looked at each one twice, and he checked each one when he picked it up and before he put it back. Now, being rather sensitive to the fact that people don’t like to have guns pointed at them, I didn’t want to point the gun at an area where customers were or could inadvertently walk by. There were so many customers and employees on either side of the counter on both my left and right sides, that that pointing it down the length of the counter was not an option. People were walking all through the store as well, so I didn’t want to just point it out there either. Hence the reason I pointed it behind the counter. I did put my finger on the trigger once, for a split second, after making sure that it was all clear, to see how far it was to the trigger. I mean, these are things that I am going to have to check before I spend hundreds of dollars on an item. For the rest of the time I had my hand in what is it's "natural" position, with the trigger finger extended straight out as if I were pointing it and resting on the side of the firearm. This is how I ALWAYS hold firearms when I'm not ready to shoot. The only time I touch the trigger at all is for a second on the day I actually plan to BUY the gun for sure. Plus, I don't even make them get things out that I'm not interested in, or able to buy. I had looked at the Mossberg earlier this week and never even touched the trigger. When I came in with the money though, that's a different story. I will be checking everything before I buy it.
The salesman who was helping me was standing in front of me and just slightly to my right. At that point I had the Mossberg aimed slightly down and to the left of the salesman who was helping me. Also note that I was standing right up next to the glass, and I couldn’t lower the gun enough to not aim the Mossberg below someone's legs (Even if they were all the way back with the ammo) from where I was, because the counter was physically in the way.
At this point another salesperson, who was on the employee side of the counter, apparently came up on my right and walked behind the salesman helping me. The Mossberg was pointed maybe 20 degrees to the left of the salesman and slightly down from horizontal.
The salesperson that was walking just went right behind him (And once again he walked behind him, so I didn’t realize he was coming until he was right there) and continued on heading directly towards the area where the gun was pointing. The salesman who was helping me must have noticed the other salesperson walking around behind him, because right around the same time he placed his hand on the barrel and directed it down until it reached the counter and couldn’t go down any further, and then to my right, furthur towards himself but not so that it was actually pointed at him. The salesperson that was walking continued, and thus he was in front of the barrel for a short time period. It was for maybe one second, I can’t imagine it was much more and it may have been less. During that time, and all of the time up to it, I recall having my trigger finger extended and resting against the side of the gun's frame, not even near the trigger guard or the trigger itself. I had cycled the action about 4 times, and the gun had been checked as clear by the salesman helping me 3 times already. I had no ammunition on me and there was none anywhere on the entire length of the counter, or within reach of me. I also wasn’t just pointing it at him, in fact I didn’t even know he was coming until he had pretty much walked right in front of me. At that point the salesman put his hand on the gun and moved it to the right, just as the other salesperson was going to walk right in front of it. Since he pulled it to my right, he put it directly into his path. Anyway, right after he walked by the barrel and had continued on maybe 3 or 4 more feet, he stopped, turned and appeared to stare at me for a second; then he raised his voice a bit (Basically he took a stern authoritative tone) and stated (Btw, it’s now been about 10 seconds since he walked in front of it), “DON’T POINT THAT AT ME!” As if I had raised it up and purposely pointed it at him right when he got in front of me, just to "see what a person looks like through the ghost ring sights." A few seconds later, as he sat down perhaps 4 feet to my left, right in front of the customers he was making a sale to, he muttered, quite clearly and awfully loud (I’m sure he wanted me to hear it), “Dumbass.” I must say, this statement got to me a bit. I didn’t like or appreciate it.
This is an armed individual as far as I know, as the other times I’ve been there plenty of employees have been, and it seems like he is one of the folks I’ve seen carrying. Since he sat down immediately after walking in front of and right past the gun I was holding, I didn’t notice if he was carrying or not today. The point is, he doesn’t need to be raising his voice at me or anyone else even if he’s not carrying, but even more so if he was. When I carry, I make sure that I don’t do anything that could instigate a fight or argument because that is highly irresponsible when you have a loaded firearm on your person. You don’t do things that could cause a situation to escalate further. This action made me extremely uncomfortable, as I even felt (Although I do very seriously doubt that anything would happen) somewhat concerned for my safety. I felt like there was no way for me to ask him what had just occurred, or if he was joking or what, because he might then take it to the next level. He certainly didn’t smile or laugh, so I assume this was dead serious. And since he was acting like I was pointing a gun at him, how do I know he wont take that as a good enough reason to draw his gun on me? How do I know if I say, “Did you just call me a dumbass?” that he wont become so crazy that he’d do something like that? I don’t know this guy, so I won’t just assume that nothing can happen.
The fact is, he walked directly in front of the barrel on his own two legs. I had the barrel raised and was already pointing it in a safe direction, he then just walked right in front of it and decided to get nasty with me as if I had forced him to do that. He didn’t ask me to do anything with it before walking in front of it. He didn’t just duck down below it. He didn’t notify me in any way that he was going to be walking in front of it. All he really did was tell me, after walking directly in front of a gun I was holding (And in front of a lot of other customers/employees) that I was a “dumbass.”
I went through all of the possibilities for what I could have done in this situation, and I can’t see how I did anything wrong. He should have notified me that he was about to walk in front of me if he was concerned for his safety and noticed that I obviously did not see him yet. Here are the possibilities I see for what would have happened if I had moved it in any direction other than pretty much where it was pointed:
1. If I had raised the gun up at that point, I would have ended up sighting this salesperson’s HEAD in the process.
2. I could not lower the gun to the point that it wouldn’t have had any part of his body sighted either, because the counter was in the way. It would have been pointed at his knees perhaps, instead of his abdomen, for that split second. (Which is what the salesman forced me to do)
3. If I had moved it much more than 20 degrees to the right I would have targeted the salesman who was helping me, and also would have had to go right through the other salesperson’s path.
4. If I had moved it significantly to the left I would have targeted the other customers and employees standing on either side of the counter.
5. If I had only moved it slightly to the left, I would have targeted the area above the seat where he was about to sit, or targeted another area in which he was about to be walking, which still wouldn’t have avoided the situation.
6. The only option would have been an immediate upward motion sweeping slightly to left, but I was prevented from doing that. Honestly though, I would assume this guy just doesn’t care since he WALKED RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME.
The salesman who was helping me directed the gun for me when he noticed the guy coming around him, I mean he physically directed the barrel with his hand. I didn’t have anything to do with where the barrel went at that point. I did not, at any time, “track” the moving salesperson with the weapon, nor did I raise it up from a lowered position right as he walked by. I had it raised for what I would estimate to have been at least 10 to 20 seconds before he walked by. I had been looking at the shotguns and pointing them in that same direction for a few minutes actually, to compare the sights, which is what I was paying attention to. I did not, at any time, intentionally sight any human being within the store.
After this happened I told the salesman helping me that I didn’t think I could purchase the weapon at that point, or at least until someone clarified what had just occurred. His response was “Well, you don’t have to buy it.” So I gave it back to him and he put it up, and then rightly continued on to help some other customers. I was rather upset about it and I wanted to talk to a manager right then, so I talked to another employee for a moment about it. He was very nice and helpful and he said that he could bring it to the attention of a manager if I wanted. Since the store was so busy and since I don’t like getting folks in trouble, I told him it was alright, but that I just didn’t understand why that situation had occurred in the first place. He said that he could bring it up after hours and I said that would be fine
I am very torn at this point about what to do as I like the store, and I have always had good experiences there before. However, now I don’t feel comfortable asking to view a firearm in that store again. Knowing that if an employee chooses to walk in front of the barrel without even trying to notify me beforehand, I’ll be the one to get yelled at, and who knows what else. He obviously took it very seriously, as if I had intentionally raised a gun and pointed it at him. That’s a serious accusation to make to an unarmed individual when you’re carrying, and as I said it made me extremely uncomfortable. If it was a joke, nobody laughed, so he might want to fill me in on that one if it was the case.
I also honestly don’t know at this point how valued I am as a customer. Obviously he thinks I’m just an idiot toying around or something. In reality I was within 5 minutes of making my second purchase in that store. Not only that, but had I recommended somewhere else to my friend, he wouldn’t have purchased his firearm there either.
If all I am is a liability and annoyance for the employees, then I certainly wont bother anyone in there again. All I wanted to do was decide whether I could deal with the bead sight or if I wanted the ghost rings badly enough to give up the added “smoothness” and good overall feel of the Remington that I handled.