The Vast Majority of LEOs are...?

[Gunslinger]

...people who deal with the dregs of society on a day-in, day-out basis; dregs who would attack you as soon as look at you. Dregs who often try to hide in sheeps' clothing. Yet, are still expected to be courteous and professional to them.

...people who, when they meet a law-abiding citizen, cannot afford to assume anything about that person as experience has taught them that even the fellow who is the nicest guy in the world to your face could just be waiting for his chance to hurt you. Yet, are still expected to be courteous and professional to them.

...people who cannot let their profession be publicly known because so many, and not just the dregs of society, hate them so much. Carte blanche, and without giving any individual the separate consideration they deserve.

...people who are human just like you, and are subject to flaws that every other human is subject to.

...people who, knowing full well that most people don't like them, choose to do their job anyway. Because on the rare occasion that they can make someone's day, all the abuse, scorn, ridicule, insults, mistrust, stereotyping, and general vitriol directed their way is absolutely worth it.

Finally:

...not the villains that some would paint them as.

My flaws don't kill innocent people, or frame them for some crime to cover up mine, or violate the rights of those I was sworn to defend. Cops must be held to a higher standard. I believe the ones found guilty of a crime should get twice the sentence a non-cop would with no hope of parole. If they can't perform at the standard citizens expect, get another job. Just because they deal with scumbags is no rationalization for them to treat honest people that way. If they are too stupid to make the distinction they should work at Burger King.

 

[eye95]

Yet an honest person wouldn't insist that we pretend that there aren't a lot of tornadoes every year in the United States.

As if anyone were doing anything remotely analogous to that...

On ninja edit: For those who are reading impaired, the above is saying, "No one is insisting that there aren't a lot of police abuses, just that folks should stop implying that MOST LEOs are perpetrating such abuses to the point that MOST people are experiencing those abuses." It is a shame that I had to clarify that because someone in a later post used this post as an excuse to, once again, use anecdotal accounts in contrast to this post to imply that "doing anything remotely analogous to that" was referring to police abuse.

However, that post provides a nice illustration how predisposition can help someone see things (such as this post) as how he wants them to be, not as they are.

 

[Kivuli]

My flaws don't kill innocent people, or frame them for some crime to cover up mine, or violate the rights of those I was sworn to defend.

You personally? Perhaps not. But we aren't talking about individuals, we're talking about populations. There are absolutely citizens that do every one of the things you mentioned. They do not represent the vast majority, and neither do the cops you speak of.

Just because they deal with scumbags is no rationalization for them to treat honest people that way. If they are too stupid to make the distinction they should work at Burger King.

The scumbags often look the same as honest people. In fact, the scumbags often masquerade quite effectively as honest people. The "distinction" is not as easy to make as you claim, especially not when it must be made in a split second. But again, we're speaking of the vast majority here, and I think you will find that most cops simply don't treat citizens that way without cause.

 

[eye95]

...The scumbags often look the same as honest people. In fact, the scumbags often masquerade quite effectively as honest people...

Casey Anthony is quite an attractive young woman. Were I single and half my age, upon spotting her, I'd immediately consider making an effort to spend time with her. Knowing what I know now, I don't want to be within five miles of her!

I have become convinced that she is a sociopath. Sociopaths are quite adept at appearing like ordinary "honest" folk--until the web they have woven starts coming apart. When that happens, no behavior is off-limits in order to maintain their untenable position.

 

[Kivuli]

Quite an interesting view in light of the increasing number of incidents of offical police misconduct thanks to the Interwebs.

The increasing number of widely known about incidents, thanks to the internet. I'm not saying police do no wrong.

Also, LE does not need you to to defend them in the court of public opinion, it just does not work coming from a outsider to a outsider, they are quite capable of defending themselves. Instead they choose to use qualified immunity as a defense and public opinion be danged.

The Interwebs brings to light that official police misconduct is relatively common, where as before the Interwebs it was as you attempt to point out, the rare exception.

Outsider or LEO makes no difference to the point I'm making. A LEO is met with equal scorn to a non-LEO, the only difference being the face the scorn takes. To wit: "Blue Wall of Silence" and all that. To the last sentence, I bring up my previous point. The internet has made this information widely available; it hasn't changed the frequency or severity. I think many tend to forget that. I am not defending those LEOs that have indeed done wrong, I am pointing out the fallacy of instantly labelling all LEOs as corrupt based on the actions of so relatively few.

 

[Kivuli]

I will not deny there have been incidents that leave a foul taste in my mouth regarding the very things you point to. I simply disagree that the vast majority of LEOs are prone to such displays of abuse of power, and have seen no evidence to the contrary. Moreover, I will not paint them all sight-unseen with the same brush that stroked the few we hear about in the news, and am weary of the rhetoric of those who do.

It is no more fair to judge all LEOs as overbearing, rights-abusing bullies than it would be to claim that they are all saints. Just as those on this forum ask... no, demand... respect from LEOs, so should the courtesy be extended the other way; and in both cases, respect is to be applied to the individual.

 

[Deanimator]

As if anyone were doing anything remotely analogous to that...

It happens EVERY time a cop commits a serious crime. It can be 100% GUARANTEED that the usual cast of cops and cop groupies will step forward to first deny what happened, then to justify it, usually by attacking victim.

• Kathryn Johnston
• Michael Pleasance
• The Danziger Bridge victims
• Karolyna Obrycka

EVERY one of them was smeared, not just by the perpetrators, but by the ever present "Next time call a hippie!" chorus.

But hey, maybe you STILL believe that Kathryn Johnston was a "drug dealer".

Police culture and gang culture run in parallel:

• insular
• infused with a sense of privilege
• contemptuous of outsiders
• vindictive
• followed by hangers-on and groupies

When a cop commits a crime against a citizen, the reaction of other cops and their supporters is REMARKABLY like that of gang members and their "posses" when a gang member shoots a cop...

 

[Deanimator]

It is no more fair to judge all LEOs as overbearing, rights-abusing bullies than it would be to claim that they are all saints.

And yet I see people do that all the time. I even see people JUSTIFY crimes by cops, up to and including torture and murder.

I find it odd that people who will claim (reasonably) that police can't ALL be described as criminals, turn around and with equally little basis, claim that they're ALL "saints".

You don't know WHAT the proportions are.

Cops are like hitchhikers.

Most hitchhikers probably aren't serial killers.
Some ARE.

Most cops probably aren't violent racist sociopaths.
Some ARE.

That I know of, there's no Android app to tell any of them apart.

I don't pick up hitchhikers.
I don't trust cops, have anything to do with them, or interact with them in any way not SPECIFICALLY mandated by law.

 

[Kivuli]

And yet I see people do that all the time. I even see people JUSTIFY crimes by cops, up to and including torture and murder.

I find it odd that people who will claim (reasonably) that police can't ALL be described as criminals, turn around and with equally little basis, claim that they're ALL "saints".

Of course there are individuals out there who do that; never once did I deny it. I think they are wrong just as I think the cops who comitted those crimes should be taken to task. Again, I'm just referring to the vast majority and trying to explain why I feel it's folly to paint the entire group with the one two-bristle brush.

That I know of, there's no Android app to tell any of them apart.

I don't pick up hitchhikers.
I don't trust cops, have anything to do with them, or interact with them in any way not SPECIFICALLY mandated by law.

That is certainly your right, even though my opinion is that you're perpetuating the problem with such an attitude.

 

[Deanimator]

Of course there are individuals out there who do that; never once did I deny it. I think they are wrong just as I think the cops who comitted those crimes should be taken to task. Again, I'm just referring to the vast majority and trying to explain why I feel it's folly to paint the entire group with the one two-bristle brush.

But you don't KNOW what the "VAST majority" is or what they do. And that of course is a meaningless formulation in the first place. What the percentages are across the ENTIRE law enforcement community is UTTERLY irrelevant to what they are in Chicago, New Orleans or Philadelphia. What the cops are like in Columbia, Missouri is of ABSOLUTELY no relevance when I'm pulled over in Philadelphia or the cops knock on my door in Chicago. Not only are there "bad apples", there are bad ORCHARDS, chock FULL of bad apples, growing on twisted trees, planted in polluted soil.

That is certainly your right, even though my opinion is that you're perpetuating the problem with such an attitude.

I'm not "perpetuating" ANYTHING. I'm RECOGNIZING it, and PROTECTING myself from it. The overwhelming body of evidence says that if I don't protect MYSELF, the police certainly won't, and will in fact, do EVERYTHING humanly possible within (and outside) the law to ensure that a cop who violates my rights will NOT be held to account for it. And on the off chance he IS, the "punishment" will be a sick joke... or perhaps you believe that 30 days without pay (followed by a PROMOTION to detective) is an appropriate "punishment" for shooting an unarmed man in the face and lying about it.

 

[Kivuli]

But you don't KNOW what the "VAST majority" is or what they do. And that of course is a meaningless formulation in the first place.

Nor do you, rendering the argument moot.

What the percentages are across the ENTIRE law enforcement community is UTTERLY irrelevant to what they are in Chicago, New Orleans or Philadelphia. What the cops are like in Columbia, Missouri is of ABSOLUTELY no relevance when I'm pulled over in Philadelphia or the cops knock on my door in Chicago.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you wish to claim the actions of LEOs in any given city are irrelevant when discussing the intent of LEOs elsewhere in the country, you cannot then turn around and state that because of the widely publicized actions of relatively few, all LEOs must therefore share the same mentality, which is what your arguments so far appear to be proposing.

I'm not "perpetuating" ANYTHING. I'm RECOGNIZING it, and PROTECTING myself from it. The overwhelming body of evidence says that if I don't protect MYSELF, the police certainly won't, and will in fact, do EVERYTHING humanly possible within (and outside) the law to ensure that a cop who violates my rights will NOT be held to account for it. And on the off chance he IS, the "punishment" will be a sick joke... or perhaps you believe that 30 days without pay (followed by a PROMOTION to detective) is an appropriate "punishment" for shooting an unarmed man in the face and lying about it.

No, if in fact this example is true and the facts are as you claim, I believe it is a travesty. If, however, there is more to it than what you put forth, I withhold judgement until I know the facts. I suspect the latter is the case as neither of us were present for the incident.

The overwhelming body of evidence YOU acknowledge might support your conclusion, but surely you can understand there is vastly more out there than just what you are privvy to.

 

[S.Officer]

...people who deal with the dregs of society on a day-in, day-out basis; dregs who would attack you as soon as look at you. Dregs who often try to hide in sheeps' clothing. Yet, are still expected to be courteous and professional to them.

...people who, when they meet a law-abiding citizen, cannot afford to assume anything about that person as experience has taught them that even the fellow who is the nicest guy in the world to your face could just be waiting for his chance to hurt you. Yet, are still expected to be courteous and professional to them.

...people who cannot let their profession be publicly known because so many, and not just the dregs of society, hate them so much. Carte blanche, and without giving any individual the separate consideration they deserve.

...people who are human just like you, and are subject to flaws that every other human is subject to.

...people who, knowing full well that most people don't like them, choose to do their job anyway. Because on the rare occasion that they can make someone's day, all the abuse, scorn, ridicule, insults, mistrust, stereotyping, and general vitriol directed their way is absolutely worth it.

Finally:

...not the villains that some would paint them as.

AGREE...

The Mast Majority of LEO's are...
Willing to take a bullet...something the mass majority of citizens would not do. For that I respect COPS!!


That doesn't mean if I see one beating the *** out of a dude,that I wouldn't pull out my camera and tape the incident assuming he had justifiable cause...


A great TV show to watch..."What would you do?" with Jon Quinones.

 

[Deanimator]

Nor do you, rendering the argument moot.

No, it CONFIRMS my argument.

NEITHER of us knows what the proportions are. Yet I keep hearing the UTTERLY baseless assertion that most cops are "good". I reject this as much as an assertion that most cops are bad. Across the ENTIRE population of cops, NOBODY knows.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you wish to claim the actions of LEOs in any given city are irrelevant when discussing the intent of LEOs elsewhere in the country, you cannot then turn around and state that because of the widely publicized actions of relatively few, all LEOs must therefore share the same mentality, which is what your arguments so far appear to be proposing.

Again, you are changing the terms of reference. I can't judge ALL cops by Chicago cops, but I most CERTAINLY can judge the tendencies of Chicago cops by, not just the documented acts of Chicago cops, but by the documented acts, attitudes and comments of OTHER Chicago cops. Any time a major police force can have an armed robbery ring operating INSIDE of it for YEARS, that police force is UTTERLY untrustworthy. When you see not just denials of those criminal acts, but ENDORSEMENTS of them, that only puts a cherry on top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49kgG0s7lVk The overwhelming reaction of most Chicago cops to the savage beating of Karolyna Obrycka seems to be an insincere, pro-forma "condemnation" of the actual attack, followed by a prolonged, whiny, profanity laced assertion that the video of it was shown "too much".

No, if in fact this example is true and the facts are as you claim, I believe it is a travesty. If, however, there is more to it than what you put forth, I withhold judgement until I know the facts. I suspect the latter is the case as neither of us were present for the incident.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicag...n-weems-michael-pleasance/Content?oid=1264452 and http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/...hy-was-cop-who-shot-unarmed-man-promoted.html and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/09/alvin-weems-suicide-offic_n_859456.html

No, I kind of don't think there's much doubt at this point. I didn't know that Weems had killed himself. No loss there.

The truth is that the police THEMSELVES have proved beyond all doubt that it's FAR too dangerous for a citizen to trust them. There's no upside to the average citizen trusting a strange cop, and a literal INFINITY of potential downsides. A cop may not like that I don't trust him. I couldn't care less. If I trust the wrong one, it could cost me money, my freedom or my life. They've got nobody to blame but themselves, and not just the actual perpetrators, but the "stop snitching" culture abroad in the law enforcement culture and the horde of enablers in blue as well.

 

[Kivuli]

I reject this as much as an assertion that most cops are bad. Across the ENTIRE population of cops, NOBODY knows.

I will concede that point; we each have only our individual viewpoints to rely upon. However...

The truth is that the police THEMSELVES have proved beyond all doubt that it's FAR too dangerous for a citizen to trust them. There's no upside to the average citizen trusting a strange cop, and a literal INFINITY of potential downsides. A cop may not like that I don't trust him. I couldn't care less. If I trust the wrong one, it could cost me money, my freedom or my life. They've got nobody to blame but themselves, and not just the actual perpetrators, but the "stop snitching" culture abroad in the law enforcement culture and the horde of enablers in blue as well.

...here you go and do precisely what you rail against doing. Judging ALL cops by the actions of a few.

 

[Deanimator]

...here you go and do precisely what you rail against doing. Judging ALL cops by the actions of a few.

I don't say that all cops are bad.

I say that ANY cop COULD be bad. Not only don't you deny it, you don't even TRY.

Trusting the wrong cop could cost me every penny I own, my freedom or my life.

It's simply not worth it for me to trust the police. There's no benefit WHATEVER in it, certainly not one that even approaches the potential costs.

There's MORE than enough evidence of police corruption and the fact that other cops tolerate and in some cases SUPPORT it.

As I said, not all hitchhikers are serial killers. SOME are, and it's not worth my while to try to tell one from another.
Not all cops are violent racist psychopaths. SOME are, and it's not worth my while to try to tell one from another. Compared to the dangers, any dubious benefits are infinitesimal.

I have to note that you haven't offered even a SINGLE reason why I should endanger MYSELF by having any but the absolute minimum contact with police.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

I'm ENDLESSLY fascinated that for 20+ years, Black voters in Chicago elected as mayor, the man who was State's Attorney at the height of organized police torture. It is BEYOND DOUBT that Daley's State's Attorney's office used confessions extracted under torture, and REAL Klaus "Butcher of Lyon" Barbie torture, not the namby pamby Abu Ghraib/Guantanamo kind. To the best of my knowledge, ALL of the torture victims was Black.

It's like French Jews voting for Klaus Barbie for Mayor of Lyon...

I have given this thought over the years and not just in Chicago in many places across U.S people are not happy with their police and elected officials who use them. I sometimes wonder if it is something Akin to Stockholm syndrome.

I gently invite you to review your standard for "bad cop." You see, I'm not sure why the go-along-to-get-along cops are not bad cops.

I consider them bad cops. If they can personally witness rights violations, and not do something strong and effective to stamp it out...

I believe this too, and it isn't just a "big city" problem. People who believe differently have never had a negative encounter they have tried to rectify with their local "authorities.

Of course there are individuals out there who do that; never once did I deny it. I think they are wrong just as I think the cops who comitted those crimes should be taken to task. Again, I'm just referring to the vast majority and trying to explain why I feel it's folly to paint the entire group with the one two-bristle brush.



That is certainly your right, even though my opinion is that you're perpetuating the problem with such an attitude.

I am sure there were good little boys in Hitler's youth too, so we shouldn't paint the whole group as bad....:uhoh:

The whole system has become a joke, almost any police force will advertise the fact they are "proactive" or trying hard against "crime prevention" both of which are very unconstitutional in my mind. They ignore the constitution, and liberty of people.

They ignore Blackstone legal tradition which our country is supposed to be founded upon were you need both Actus Reus and Mens Rea to be guilty of any crime. They ignore the fact that the majority of laws are supposed to limit the government and its authority over people. They commit felonies daily yet get away with it.....(perjury), they hide exculpatory evidence (I include prosecutors in Law Enforcement). Arrest people first when in doubt instead of learning the specifics first, they are unconstitutionally militarizing themselves.....I can go on and on and on...and this is all on dealings with my local not very big police department. It is also what I find across the nation as a major problem.

 

[eye95]

...Most hitchhikers probably aren't serial killers.
Some ARE.

Most cops probably aren't violent racist sociopaths.
Some ARE.

That I know of, there's no Android app to tell any of them apart.

I don't pick up hitchhikers.
I don't trust cops, have anything to do with them, or interact with them in any way not SPECIFICALLY mandated by law.

Now THAT is reasonable. I would simply add that we should not run around implying (or flatly saying) that encounters with hitchhikers are more likely than not to become the subject of a horror movie.

Analogously, because of the rare case of hitchhikers going all OJ on us is good reason not to pick any of them up, because of the rare case of LEOs going all SS on us, we should be wary of and carefully approach any encounter with them.

Continuing the analogy, we should not run around implying (or flatly saying) that encounters with LEOs are more likely than not to resemble an encounter with the SS.

 

[Deanimator]

Now THAT is reasonable. I would simply add that we should not run around implying (or flatly saying) that encounters with hitchhikers are more likely than not to become the subject of a horror movie.

Analogously, because of the rare case of hitchhikers going all OJ on us is good reason not to pick any of them up, because of the rare case of LEOs going all SS on us, we should be wary of and carefully approach any encounter with them.

Continuing the analogy, we should not run around implying (or flatly saying) that encounters with LEOs are more likely than not to resemble an encounter with the SS.

You must add that depending upon where you are, your encounter with police is more or less likely to resemble an encounter with the "Black & Tans" from the movie "Michael Collins". Based on the documentary evidence, no HONEST person would deny that you are FAR more likely to have a negative encounter with police in Chicago, New Orleans or Philadelphia than in other places. Organizations have cultures, and the organizational cultures of the Chicago, New Orleans and Philadephia Police Departments are PROFOUNDLY corrupt.

Regardless of where you are, trusting the police is a gamble, and a gamble with a meager payout and a potentially crushing loss.

 

[2kargarage]

Moving to Las Vegas

Hello I'm moving to Las Vegas in September. I have an Oklahoma ccw but it is not
recogonized by Nevada. Since open carry is allowed I'm wanting to join an open carry group.
Thank you.

 

[Gunslinger]

You personally? Perhaps not. But we aren't talking about individuals, we're talking about populations. There are absolutely citizens that do every one of the things you mentioned. They do not represent the vast majority, and neither do the cops you speak of.



The scumbags often look the same as honest people. In fact, the scumbags often masquerade quite effectively as honest people. The "distinction" is not as easy to make as you claim, especially not when it must be made in a split second. But again, we're speaking of the vast majority here, and I think you will find that most cops simply don't treat citizens that way without cause.

The point remains that cops MUST be held to a higher standard as they carry every day the opportunity, method and means to violate innocent citizens' rights--up to and including murdering them. Are all cops guilty of abuses? Of course not, but to deny they have a higher probabililty to do so than you or I is illogical. Read the news; look at the 'bad cop' sites. Yes, some scumbags as eye notes don't look the part. But the vast majority of people cops deal with are not scumbags. For them to err on the opposite end in thinking they are, or using the "could be" philosophy is the problem. If they can't get beyond that, they need a different line of work.