This doesn't seem good at all.

[essayons]

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PT111 wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

rlh2005 wrote:

HardChrome wrote:

According to Pilotonline, he decapitate the victim while others stood helpless watching.

WTF?!

What I read said he used a kitchen knife. If this is true, first question is what constitutes a "kitchen" knife in this instant case? Beheading someone with such an instrument takes a little time.. it is not likely to be over in a matter of seconds. More like close to a minute. And this is if you know what you're doing.

So if people stood around watching this guy cut through a young woman's neck and did nothing for perhaps up to a minute or so, you really have to wonder about them.

I agree and I would not have needed a gun to do something. I really don't believe that I would stand by claiming I was helpless just because I don't have a gun on me. I still have two hands and some strength left so this whole idea of needing to be armed is bravado.

Unfortunately the young asian girl (and the bystanders) didn't have the strength you have.

A firearm is an equalizer

Another recent attack by a mentally disturbed individual in a public place that turned out differently.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6219604.html

In this one the weapon was a bow, and there were 2(!) CCWs present, who used their firearms to stop the attacker until police arrived.

In a gun-free zone we have a young girl horribly murdered, in a pro-gun area there were no fatalities and the mentally disturbed attacker will hopefully be locked up and receive the treatment she needs.

 

[Armed]

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SouthernBoy wrote:

rlh2005 wrote:

HardChrome wrote:

According to Pilotonline, he decapitate the victim while others stood helpless watching.

WTF?!

What I read said he used a kitchen knife. If this is true, first question is what constitutes a "kitchen" knife in this instant case? Beheading someone with such an instrument takes a little time.. it is not likely to be over in a matter of seconds. More like close to a minute. And this is if you know what you're doing.

So if people stood around watching this guy cut through a young woman's neck and did nothing for perhaps up to a minute or so, you really have to wonder about them.

That's exactly what I was thinking! What the hell is wrong with our society, that we will not ACT?! [obviously... I'm exasperating to the choir here....]

 

[essayons]

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Armed wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

rlh2005 wrote:

HardChrome wrote:

According to Pilotonline, he decapitate the victim while others stood helpless watching.

WTF?!

What I read said he used a kitchen knife. If this is true, first question is what constitutes a "kitchen" knife in this instant case? Beheading someone with such an instrument takes a little time.. it is not likely to be over in a matter of seconds. More like close to a minute. And this is if you know what you're doing.

So if people stood around watching this guy cut through a young woman's neck and did nothing for perhaps up to a minute or so, you really have to wonder about them.

That's exactly what I was thinking! What the hell is wrong with our society, that we will not ACT?! [obviously... I'm exasperating to the choir here....]

They did what our society trains them to do... don't get involved, call the police, be a good witness.

This goes all the way to elementary school playgrounds. My father taught me if someone hit me, I hit them back. My teachers (tried) to teach me to "run and get a teacher." In high schools, all parties to a fight get disciplined (and often suspended), regardless of who starts it or if you are defending yourself. Even in many self-defense shootings, the shooter is at the very least handcuffed and taken to jail, and sometimes charged with murder/manslaughter.

 

[Citizen]

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PT111 wrote:

TexasNative wrote:

PT111 wrote:

It appears that the assailant downloaded an IPhone application Called Stabher that caused him to Kill more efficiently. Virginia Tech President said if they had only closed that gun show loophole this stabbing would never had happened.

With comments like this it's no wonderpro-gun citizenshave such a hard time being taken seriously.

I'm guessing you made this comment because you're unfamiliar with the recently released iPhone application called "Sniper" that makes ballistic calculations, and people who know nothing about guns believe that you can now somehow connect your iPhone to your Remington 700 .30-06 and hit a soda can from 2 miles. Or something much more nefarious.

No, the comment uses irony to address ignorance.

Ahem.

No I am makiing the comment because it is stupid. The VT president never said such a thing and to make fun of someone being stabbed to death is just what the antis want. This murder had nothing to do with OC or guns and does nothing to either promote or hinder the OC on campus cause. It was simply a case of two people that knew each other getting into some kind of disagreement and one killing the other with a knife. If both of them had been armed there would still be at least one person dead and probably the same person that died. remember if OC is allowed on campus then that doesn't mean that the BG's won't stillhave guns.

This incident is tragic and to be making fun of it like several are is even more tragic.

Its an oblique reference to VT's no defensive weapons policy, something they have worked very hard at. And crowed about. Their (marketing chief?) crowed to the media about their success at the General Assembly in keeping the school gun-free and promoting that students can feel safe---the session right before Cho's massacre.

So, maybe the prez didn't say it, but the rest of the victim disarmament cadre got approval or marching orders from where?

 

[sccrref]

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essayons wrote:

Armed wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

rlh2005 wrote:

HardChrome wrote:

According to Pilotonline, he decapitate the victim while others stood helpless watching.

WTF?!

What I read said he used a kitchen knife. If this is true, first question is what constitutes a "kitchen" knife in this instant case? Beheading someone with such an instrument takes a little time.. it is not likely to be over in a matter of seconds. More like close to a minute. And this is if you know what you're doing.

So if people stood around watching this guy cut through a young woman's neck and did nothing for perhaps up to a minute or so, you really have to wonder about them.

That's exactly what I was thinking! What the hell is wrong with our society, that we will not ACT?! [obviously... I'm exasperating to the choir here....]

They did what our society trains them to do... don't get involved, call the police, be a good witness.

This goes all the way to elementary school playgrounds. My father taught me if someone hit me, I hit them back. My teachers (tried) to teach me to "run and get a teacher." In high schools, all parties to a fight get disciplined (and often suspended), regardless of who starts it or if you are defending yourself. Even in many self-defense shootings, the shooter is at the very least handcuffed and taken to jail, and sometimes charged with murder/manslaughter.

Do not forget the civil suits that would surely follow from the killer and or his family should something untoward have happened to him either during or after his crime.

 

[2a4all]

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SouthernBoy wrote:

rlh2005 wrote:

HardChrome wrote:

According to Pilotonline, he decapitate the victim while others stood helpless watching.

WTF?!

What I read said he used a kitchen knife. If this is true, first question is what constitutes a "kitchen" knife in this instant case? Beheading someone with such an instrument takes a little time.. it is not likely to be over in a matter of seconds. More like close to a minute. And this is if you know what you're doing.

So if people stood around watching this guy cut through a young woman's neck and did nothing for perhaps up to a minute or so, you really have to wonder about them.

Shades of Kitty Genovese.

For those who might not know (or remember),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese
Catherine Susan Genovese (July 7, 1935[1][/sup]–March 13, 1964), commonly known as Kitty Genovese, was a New York City woman who was stabbed to death near her home in the Kew Gardens section of Queens, New York.[3][/sup] Genovese was buried in a family grave at Lakeview Cemetery in New Canaan, Connecticut.
The circumstances of her murder and the supposed lack of reaction of numerous neighbors were reported by a newspaper article published two weeks later; the common portrayal of neighbors being fully aware, but completely nonresponsive has later been criticized as inaccurate. Nonetheless, it prompted investigation into the social psychological phenomenon that has become known as the bystander effect (seldom: "Genovese syndrome")[4][/sup] and especially diffusion of responsibility.

 

[Grapeshot]

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Citizen wrote:

Its an oblique reference to VT's no defensive weapons policy, something they have worked very hard at. And crowed about. Their (marketing chief?) crowed to the media about their success at the General Assembly in keeping the school gun-free and promoting that students can feel safe---the session right before Cho's massacre.

So, maybe the prez didn't say it, but the rest of the victim disarmament cadre got approval or marching orders from where?

No oblique reference here.

More than enough laws were on the books to make what the attacker did illegal. What did not exist was the right to defend self and others while a student or employee of Virginia Tech.

Whom do I fault for this deplorable state of affairs?

I blame the school, the administrators and yes our elected representatives at the General Assembly for the misguided complacent belief that you can legislate someone's safety. I am angry, disgusted and ashamed of these people. Many of them have contributed to allowing this condition to continue unabated. There are too few champions who trust the people and recognize their God given rights.

While there is no guarantee that a gun might have saved this unfortunate girl, there is the negative warrantee that the one gun not there when she needed it most, did nothing to help her.

A few individuals with a warrior's mind set would not have hurt either. There had to have been options/responses that could have been made in this girl's defense. :banghead:

Yata hey

 

[Neplusultra]

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TFred wrote:

Given these details, IMO it is extremely unlikely that a rule allowing students to carry on campus would have made a difference here.

TFred

I don't know. I can draw and double tap a 4" group at 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Whether I could have accessed the situation and started to react in time is another issue. Plus the shock factor. But it's not outside the realm of possibility.

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

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Neplusultra wrote:

TFred wrote:

Given these details, IMO it is extremely unlikely that a rule allowing students to carry on campus would have made a difference here.

TFred

I don't know. I can draw and double tap a 4" group at 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Whether I could have accessed the situation and started to react in time is another issue. Plus the shock factor. But it's not outside the realm of possibility.

My roommate and I discussed that scenario. I may or may not carry a .45 to campus but I can definitely say that between assessing the situation, getting over the fact that there is a man with a kitchen knife doing something horrible, untucking/drawing, etc. I may have accomplished something to the effect of preventing the ultimate outcome (decapitation) but I likely would not have prevented any death.

Also, just so the argument is not purely hypothetical...I was within 20 ft of where this happened within the hour of it happening, and I do have a CWP...I was picking my sister up on campus, we got dinner at a dining hall which is literally adjacent to the building in which this tragedy occurred and we parked on the opposite side and walked through the building. Take that for what it's worth when deciding if allowing CC on campus would have prevented anything.

On the flip-side, rules are rules, laws are laws and there are consequences for violating each of those. I take all of that into account when making decisions about my life.

 

[TFred]

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

TFred wrote:

Given these details, IMO it is extremely unlikely that a rule allowing students to carry on campus would have made a difference here.

TFred

I don't know. I can draw and double tap a 4" group at 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Whether I could have accessed the situation and started to react in time is another issue. Plus the shock factor. But it's not outside the realm of possibility.

My roommate and I discussed that scenario. I may or may not carry a .45 to campus but I can definitely say that between assessing the situation, getting over the fact that there is a man with a kitchen knife doing something horrible, untucking/drawing, etc. I may have accomplished something to the effect of preventing the ultimate outcome (decapitation) but I likely would not have prevented any death.

Also, just so the argument is not purely hypothetical...I was within 20 ft of where this happened within the hour of it happening, and I do have a CWP...I was picking my sister up on campus, we got dinner at a dining hall which is literally adjacent to the building in which this tragedy occurred and we parked on the opposite side and walked through the building. Take that for what it's worth when deciding if allowing CC on campus would have prevented anything.

On the flip-side, rules are rules, laws are laws and there are consequences for violating each of those. I take all of that into account when making decisions about my life.

Ah, well to be honest, I was only considering the fact that it would be impossible for the victim in this case to have held a CHP and been carrying, since she only arrived in the United States about 2 weeks ago. I did not consider bystanders, and I should have. I'm hesitant to be grusome, but I agree with Saltwater, I don't think two acquaintences, sharing a cup of coffee and not arguing noticeably would have attracted any particular attention, even after the guy got up and approached the victim. Unless the guy was in a rage, or deliberately trying to attract attention, for the first few seconds it would have been difficult to ascertain a malicious intent, and by then any chance of survival would be gone.

TFred

 

[WBrian]

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In hind sight, I am glad there were no guns involved in this saga. It is a shame what happened, to be sure. But if a gun was involved the story would be "Another fatal shooting incident at VT". And that would be regardless of the fashion the gun was used, either in self defense or used by a bystander.

Later,
Brian

 

[Renegade]

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While working on my MS I always carried regardless of what school policy was.

I am a husband, a father, and good citizen - being prepared is part of my job.

 

[Grapeshot]

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WBrian wrote:

In hind sight, I am glad there were no guns involved in this saga. It is a shame what happened, to be sure. But if a gun was involved the story would be "Another fatal shooting incident at VT". And that would be regardless of the fashion the gun was used, either in self defense or used by a bystander.

Later,
Brian

This suggests that guns should not be used for defensive purposes because of how the press might portray such action.

While I am quietly (nay selfishly) glad that the attack was not made with a gun, I rue that a CCer or (gasp) OCer was not present.

I am extremely sorry, no angry that Va. Tech's policy stripped this young lady of a possible chance at continuing her life. If she had been saved by a sugar dispenser over the head of her assailant it would have been no less nor more justified than someone with a gun injecting their displeasure into his thought process.

In a situation like that, my very last concern would be of how the drive-by media might spin it. Were I present and did nothing, I would not ever be able to sleep well again.

Hang another albatross around the neck of Va. Tech's esteemed leadership. So much for their safe campus and the doing everything possible BS. NO THEY ARE NOT! They are limiting/restricting the options and lighting candles when it happens yet again.

Yata hey

 

[Neplusultra]

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Grapeshot wrote:

WBrian wrote:

In hind sight, I am glad there were no guns involved in this saga. It is a shame what happened, to be sure. But if a gun was involved the story would be "Another fatal shooting incident at VT". And that would be regardless of the fashion the gun was used, either in self defense or used by a bystander.

Later,
Brian

This suggests that guns should not be used for defensive purposes because of how the press might portray such action.

While I am quietly (nay selfishly) glad that the attack was not made with a gun, I rue that a CCer or (gasp) OCer was not present.

I am extremely sorry, no angry that Va. Tech's policy stripped this young lady of a possible chance at continuing her life. If she had been saved by a sugar dispenser over the head of her assailant it would have been no less nor more justified than someone with a gun injecting their displeasure into his thought process.

In a situation like that, my very last concern would be of how the drive-by media might spin it. Were I present and did nothing, I would not ever be able to sleep well again.

Hang another albatross around the neck of Va. Tech's esteemed leadership. So much for their safe campus and the doing everything possible BS. NO THEY ARE NOT! They are limiting/restricting the options and lighting candles when it happens yet again.

Yata hey

You know Grapeshot, we need to get a whole bunch of non-student OCers to go visit the administration, whoever that may be, with the media, and let them know what we think, and see what their reaction is.... I'd be there. Just a thought.

 

[SouthernBoy]

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Grapeshot wrote:

WBrian wrote:

In hind sight, I am glad there were no guns involved in this saga. It is a shame what happened, to be sure. But if a gun was involved the story would be "Another fatal shooting incident at VT". And that would be regardless of the fashion the gun was used, either in self defense or used by a bystander.

Later,
Brian

This suggests that guns should not be used for defensive purposes because of how the press might portray such action.

While I am quietly (nay selfishly) glad that the attack was not made with a gun, I rue that a CCer or (gasp) OCer was not present.

I am extremely sorry, no angry that Va. Tech's policy stripped this young lady of a possible chance at continuing her life. If she had been saved by a sugar dispenser over the head of her assailant it would have been no less nor more justified than someone with a gun injecting their displeasure into his thought process.

In a situation like that, my very last concern would be of how the drive-by media might spin it. Were I present and did nothing, I would not ever be able to sleep well again.

Hang another albatross around the neck of Va. Tech's esteemed leadership. So much for their safe campus and the doing everything possible BS. NO THEY ARE NOT! They are limiting/restricting the options and lighting candles when it happens yet again.

Yata hey

You know, whenever I see this, and it is frequent after a murder, after I stop laughing, I just wonder in awe. Candles. Oh, let's light some candles and walk around holding them. Maybe people will see this and the world will be a better place.

Nonsense. pure nonsense.

 

[PT111]

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SouthernBoy wrote:

To both of you gentlemen who responded to my above post, thank you. As a father of two daughters, both now grown, and one of whom graduated from Tech, I just cannot imagine how I would feel about this had it been one of mine. The refusal of so many people across our nation to believe that there are truly evil people out there who have no compunction about injuring, maiming, and killing innocent victims is amazing to me. While we don't know now, and may never know, what led up the this horrible event, the fact remains that a brutal, heinous murder was committed in our state. For others to stand around and let this happen, is unconscionable at best, and morally reprehensible for certain.

God rest her soul.

I have three daughters and the youngest is a college student right now. I suppose that the part that upsets me about this incident is than no one did anything to help. I have offered my daughters a gun to carry but so far they have not gotten the courage to do that. However they do carry pepper spray and a tazer device. They can also fight back with their hands. In no way am I against the carrying of guns by students but I am against this attitude that sometime prrvails on this board thay unless you are armed with a .45 you are helpless. As someone pointed out that in this case it was a knife and a chair can make a good defensive weapon against a knife. A gun would be better but dangit we aren't helpless without one as some keep trying to say.In this case if she had time to pull a gun for her defense or the bystanders had time to assess the situation and pull their guns then she also had time to run away from him. I don't get any indication from the articles that he ran her down to kill her.

 

[architect]

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richarcm wrote:

When are they going to ban knives?

It is imperative that we close the kitchen knife loophole before more senseless tragedies like this occur. Think of the children!

 

[SaltH2OHokie]

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PT111 wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

To both of you gentlemen who responded to my above post, thank you. As a father of two daughters, both now grown, and one of whom graduated from Tech, I just cannot imagine how I would feel about this had it been one of mine. The refusal of so many people across our nation to believe that there are truly evil people out there who have no compunction about injuring, maiming, and killing innocent victims is amazing to me. While we don't know now, and may never know, what led up the this horrible event, the fact remains that a brutal, heinous murder was committed in our state. For others to stand around and let this happen, is unconscionable at best, and morally reprehensible for certain.

God rest her soul.

I have three daughters and the youngest is a college student right now. I suppose that the part that upsets me about this incident is than no one did anything to help. I have offered my daughters a gun to carry but so far they have not gotten the courage to do that. However they do carry pepper spray and a tazer device. They can also fight back with their hands. In no way am I against the carrying of guns by students but I am against this attitude that sometime prrvails on this board thay unless you are armed with a .45 you are helpless. As someone pointed out that in this case it was a knife and a chair can make a good defensive weapon against a knife. A gun would be better but dangit we aren't helpless without one as some keep trying to say.In this case if she had time to pull a gun for her defense or the bystanders had time to assess the situation and pull their guns then she also had time to run away from him. I don't get any indication from the articles that he ran her down to kill her.

I agree wholeheartedly. Where this happened was a little coffee place which has a lot of fresh fruit. Me and my roommate were saying that in all seriousness, if you're afraid to get close to the guy, at least pelt him with grapefruits or napkin holders or something. Sure, you might hit the girl, and sure you might not stop him, but you won't kill the girl and you sure as heck are going to slow him down...

Just my $.02 as a Monday morning quarterback, who's to say what would have really happened if I were there?

 

[darthmord]

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essayons wrote:

Armed wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

rlh2005 wrote:

HardChrome wrote:

According to Pilotonline, he decapitate the victim while others stood helpless watching.

WTF?!

What I read said he used a kitchen knife. If this is true, first question is what constitutes a "kitchen" knife in this instant case? Beheading someone with such an instrument takes a little time.. it is not likely to be over in a matter of seconds. More like close to a minute. And this is if you know what you're doing.

So if people stood around watching this guy cut through a young woman's neck and did nothing for perhaps up to a minute or so, you really have to wonder about them.

That's exactly what I was thinking! What the hell is wrong with our society, that we will not ACT?! [obviously... I'm exasperating to the choir here....]

They did what our society trains them to do... don't get involved, call the police, be a good witness.

This goes all the way to elementary school playgrounds. My father taught me if someone hit me, I hit them back. My teachers (tried) to teach me to "run and get a teacher." In high schools, all parties to a fight get disciplined (and often suspended), regardless of who starts it or if you are defending yourself. Even in many self-defense shootings, the shooter is at the very least handcuffed and taken to jail, and sometimes charged with murder/manslaughter.

The policies at my children's schools mandate punishment for all parties EVEN IF YOU OFFER NO RESISTANCE against the attack.

When I read that, I was ready to charge up to the schools and light them up with righteous fury. I decided to wait based on my wife's request to hear them out at an upcoming meeting.

Went to the meeting and it only confirmed my worst suspicions. Should someone attack any of my daughters in any sort of altercation, my daughters regardless of innocence or guilt will be punished equally with the aggressor.

We explained this to our daughters, particularly the eldest that if they get into a fight even if someone else starts it for no reason, they will be punished by the school. They immediately told us "But that'sNOT FAIR! What if we didn't start it? We didn't do anything wrong!"

I agreed with them. I also said should you be involved in a fight, I have every expectation they will fight back and comport themselves appropriately. My eldest responded with "But Dad, it's against the rules to fight."

I told her "Yes, it is against the rules to fight. But the rules don't specifically state it's against the rules to fight back or defend one's self. No school rule can take away your fundamental right to be free or safe in your own person. I fully expect you to fight back and make the other person stop. Why? Well, why not? The school is already going to punish you being a victim. You may as well make it worth your while; earn that punishment they are already going to give you."

The school administrators don't like me. Apparently I don't fight fair because I'll use someone's rules to hoist them up like a circus display.

 

[Grapeshot]

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Neplusultra wrote:

You know Grapeshot, we need to get a whole bunch of non-student OCers to go visit the administration, whoever that may be, with the media, and let them know what we think, and see what their reaction is.... I'd be there. Just a thought.

If I thought that such a meeting of the decision makers was remotely possible and that it would change anything, I would be first in line to sign up. Unfortunately, I think we might have as much success leading them to see the light as we would with Saslaw or Kaine.

IMO - our efforts through the GA are better spent. Now would be a good time to call, write or visit our delegates and senators again.

Yata hey