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"thou shalt not kill"

nonameisgood

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In nature, I see a complicated, highly interactive and interdependent array of organisms. I don't look at it and think "design", I think "evolving". My background in science and my curiosity make me want to learn how and why.
 

Tawnos

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Religion "Any objective attended to or pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion". Because one acknowledges God and His morals Does not mean one is devoted to Him. Do you not see the moral standard in the 10 Commandments, if not what are you going to base your moral standards on? By the way atheism IS a religion!

A-theism - not theist. Anti-theism - against theism. Get them right.

I don't see a moral standard in the 10 commandments. Let's go one by one (I'll use the 10 commandments as I learned them; one thing you should know - there are different "10 commandments" depending on your particular christianity)... These are paraphrased to save typing:

"No other gods"
This is entirely incompatible with freedom of religion. Using it as a moral standard to guide social or political policy would mean dictating a state religion and a state god. It's fundamentally incompatible with both the wording of and the meaning behind the first amendment's protection of religious freedom.

"No idols"
Same as #1. Incompatible with religions that have idols.

"No taking the christian god's name in vain"
Incompatible with free speech.

"Don't work on the sabbath, keep it holy"
Depends when you define the seventh day, but still... Still, incompatible with freedom of religious practice. Not to mention it's anti-capitalist. You're not working 1/7th of the week? Great, a market for me to exploit. What are you, a communist? ;)

"Honor your father & mother"
What if they're not christian and you are? What if they sold you into slavery? There's nothing inherently moral about stating you must honor people just because they bred.

"Don't murder"
Sweet, this one's a good one. We're at number six, though, and still haven't found anything unique to the 10 commandments that shows them to be a source of morality. Not murdering is a human thing, not a religious one.

"Don't commit adultery"
Mixed reaction, depends on how you define "adultery". Still, what a person does in their bedroom (or their neighbor's bedroom...) shouldn't be the purview of the states.

"Don't steal"
Another good one, hey, that's 1/5 so far that are good! Not uniquely religious, though... I thought us atheists were supposed to be immoral...

"Don't bear false witness"
Not purjuring is a good social standard. Still not religious, but a good thing. That's 1/3 of of the 10 we've seen so far...

"Don't covet"
Well, shiat... Guess we should get rid of capitalism entirely. I mean, isn't that the process of saying "I can make myself better by working for it"? And what drives that process, but the idea that material goods that others have or have shown you are worth acquiring?

So seriously, before you go on a "10 commandments" rant, take a look at them and compare them to the constitution and society you claim to wish to see. Do you want a communistic community of one religious persuasion, where offenders are punished for differing beliefs? Really?

I base my moral standards on the impact of my actions if applied to me by another and the idea of what happens if my actions were done by the whole. It's almost Kantian (yes, I know he was a Christian philosopher) "universal maxim" view, but with a bit of Benthanism (increase maximum utility of any policy I support) and a fair amount of libertarian views (we could support different things, try to only "force" those that increase maximum utility of things that we mutually agree upon).

Morals are relative to time and place. You likely would consider me a mostly-moral person (I say mostly because of my atheism, abstract religious views you'd likely call me fully moral), yet I'm an atheist. The reason for those morals has nothing to do with me sharing your religious viewpoints, but because I share a lot of sociopolitical vies on how to approach political policy.
 

MKEgal

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nonameisgood said:
the militant atheists you mention are those who believe that religion itself is dangerous or detrimental
The only reason religion is more dangerous or detrimental than belief in any other invisible friend is because the people in control of the religions are sometimes not so nice, & get their followers to harm or hate people.
Also, they seek to control what their followers do. Ralph the invisible rabbit never does, unless you count raiding the vegetable drawer to get him a carrot.

ADobbs1989 said:
there are many things that are just made stupidly
Monotremes. Kangaroos. Flounder are strange. Gastric-bearing frogs.

Or let's just stick with people - why 5 fingers & toes, instead of 3? That's sufficient to be able to grasp & manipulate things.
Why have the playstation & the sewers next to each other? (Or for men, part of each other.)
Why have an appendix? (Vestigial of something we evolved out of...?)
Why does one lung have 3 lobes & the other have 2? (Why not center the heart & make the lungs equal?)

Lots of bodily processes are excessively complex. Why not have a direct effect, instead of needing a cascade of 3 or 4 different chemicals to get something done? Just like a computerized car vs. a Model T, there's more to go wrong & it's harder to fix.
 

MKEgal

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Forgot...
By using the phrase "thou shalt have no other gods before me", the JudeoChristian diety is
a) admitting there are others
b) wanting to be at least equal in status with them
 

OC for ME

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Or, if you watched the movie, with Charlton Heston, you may have noticed that God don't like it when man "makes" a god then places the man made "god" before him. If God wanted to have other gods he would make them and allow us to worship them. He didn't make any, obviously, so he does not want us to make any either. But, there is some deep thinking required to get that tidbit from the movie.
 

Freedom1Man

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Or, if you watched the movie, with Charlton Heston, you may have noticed that God don't like it when man "makes" a god then places the man made "god" before him. If God wanted to have other gods he would make them and allow us to worship them. He didn't make any, obviously, so he does not want us to make any either. But, there is some deep thinking required to get that tidbit from the movie.

It was a movie not a documentary.
 

eye95

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Forgot...
By using the phrase "thou shalt have no other gods before me", the JudeoChristian diety is
a) admitting there are others
b) wanting to be at least equal in status with them

Another misinterpretation by someone trying to use the Bible to slam it, without first understanding what it is saying.

That someone has a god before God does not meant that that god exists, or even if he/she/it does exist, that it can be seen as any kind of actual "god" in any sense other than it controls one's life

Examples of "gods" that have been placed before God:

Money
Satan
Idols
Drugs
The belief that God does not exist.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

Freedom1Man

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Another misinterpretation by someone trying to use the Bible to slam it, without first understanding what it is saying.

That someone has a god before God does not meant that that god exists, or even if he/she/it does exist, that it can be seen as any kind of actual "god" in any sense other than it controls one's life

Examples of "gods" that have been placed before God:

Money
Satan
Idols
Drugs
The belief that God does not exist.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


That sounds plural to me.
 

eye95

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Pluralis Majestatis

Duh.

I love the ignorant trying to assign meaning to tiny little snippets. Such nonsense just highlights that ignorance.
 
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ADobbs1989

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26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


That sounds plural to me.

To be fair you can't use quotes from stories that are false to prove a point.
 

Tawnos

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Another misinterpretation by someone trying to use the Bible to slam it, without first understanding what it is saying.

That someone has a god before God does not meant that that god exists, or even if he/she/it does exist, that it can be seen as any kind of actual "god" in any sense other than it controls one's life

Examples of "gods" that have been placed before God:

Money
Satan
Idols
Drugs
The belief that God does not exist.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

What about other gods people believe in? What makes yours any more real? The capital "g"?
 

slowfiveoh

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Richmond, VA
Some people are too stupid to get the distinction of "Anti-theist" versus "A-Theism. People who use terms like, "Militant Atheist" are typically, and most certainly in this case, not bright bright enough to realize they mean, "Anti-Theist".

I love the Ten Commandments. Know what I like about it?

It's clear lack of other distinct immoralities being listed.

"Thou shalt not make slaves of man or woman." Not listed.
"Thou shalt not rape children." Not listed.

Oh wait. Maybe owning slaves is just less of a sin than eyeing your neighbors luscious derriere . Certainly this must be the case.

Oh wait...what does the Bible say about owning slaves? This should be interesting. (In that the Bible CONDONES the act.)

"And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights."—Exodus 21 7-11

Phew. What morality.

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever." (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

"
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Now this is all interesting enough, but my favorite verses are the express direction for rape of women, or the murder of infants and women within enemy tribes.

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." - Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB

"
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city." - Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB

"
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." - Leviticus 20:27 NAB

"
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death." Exodus 21:15

"
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense." - Leviticus 20:9 NLT

"
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." - Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." - Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT

"
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." - Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT

"
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.'" - 1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB

"
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died." - Exodus 12:29-30 NLT


You know what's really obvious?

A purportedly omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent deity has nothing better to do with his time than to kill infants and woman.

You know whats amazing about Fundamental Christians?

-
You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
-
You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
-
You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
-
Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
-
You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
-
You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
-
You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
-
While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
-
You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
-
You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
(Hijacked from: Evilbible.com)


It is an epic level of tragic that, as point of fact, most Atheists know more about the origins of your religion than YOU do.
You literally believe the world begins with some nomadic tribe in the Bronze-Age period, and that our planet is only "6,000 years old".
You dismiss all of the paganism and mythology that bred Christianity.
You dismiss the fact that while the desert nomads of the middle-east were still learning to create little tribes, the Chinese were busy running enormous empires with more advanced languages and TUH-DUH, older religions.


You know what the worse part is?

You use your enormously flawed, inappropriate religion to try and make decisions (via voting etc.) about people who don't believe in the same BS as you do instead of recognizing their right to not be oppressed or ruled by your flawed bronze-age fantasy.

It's pathetic.

Another thing; If you do not wish to be laughed at, stop making such absurd claims.
 

nonameisgood

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Mostly, the commandments were about property rights. A wife was chattel. Adultery was a wife getting the hook-up elsewhere. Biblical scholars will tell you, men were free to have other wives and sex partners but a married woman wasn't.
 

georg jetson

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Atheism is to religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby. Atheism is literally the complete lack of belief. So no. Not a religion.

Geez... I wish I had the time some do here. I posted in this thread a few days ago... I come back and see the usual "religious" bs. We've already been through this. Religion is a belief system. Atheism is a belief system. Yes it's a religion and most atheists I see on this forum are religious zealots.
 

marshaul

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Religion is a belief system. Atheism is a belief system. [Therefore] it's a religion and most atheists I see on this forum are religious zealots.

Ethanol is a liquid at room temperature. Water is a liquid at room temperature. Therefore, water is ethanol.

Religion is a belief system. Libertarianism is a belief system. Therefore, it's a religion and most libertarians are religious zealots.
 

georg jetson

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SNIP

I would quite literally fight to the death to avoid living in a country with the 10 commandments enshrined in law.

Let's see how many of the 10 commandments, enshrined in law, would be incompatible with the principle of non-aggression and with basic liberties (alternatively, even if you don't want to see them become law, let's see how many are plain ridiculous):

Allow me to give a good ole AMEN to this! I'm a Christian. I also understand that giving authority to the government is satanic. Imagine giving the government the authority to enforce the "no graven image" statute. Hell no!

Apparently now the law ought to be concerned with thoughts, rather than actions.

My neighbor has a really nice Walther P-38. One day I'd like to buy one of my own. JAIL FOR ME!

Exactafrickinmundo!!

Some of the women in my past are now married. Sometimes, I still think about them. HELLFIRE ISN'T ENOUGH! JAIL!!!!!



I agree. So far we're at 1/10.



2/10. Although I note apparently this commandment doesn't, nor I believe would it should they be enshrined in law, apply to government.



Well, at least we could use this one to jail 99% of politicians.

But seriously, it's good that couples can decide for themselves whether to apply biblical proscriptions to their relationship, or how to react when those proscriptions are violated. That isn't something to be enshrined in law, to be handed down on high from our betters in government.



Assuming it's murder, that's a good one. 3/10.



I have, at some point in my life, had an argument with my parents, wherein I would have undoubtedly accrued some jail time were this law.

I also point out that, in the real world, some parents are not deserving of respect, and in fact it may be detrimental to the child to hold any.


WTF is this? Sundays are already lame enough here in Virginia, with ABCs closed on Sunday in observance of TEH LAWD. No, thanks.


I will if I ******* want to. JAIL FOR ME!



Fortunately, the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't strange (at least not compared to the abomination which came up with that ridiculous list), so I guess I'm good here. But then again, JAIL FOR ME!




That's precisely 3/10 which have any bearing at all on "morality" as defined by anything other than the bible or related works, or have any place at all being enshrined in law. I could do better in a drunken stupor.

You can keep your "commandments", and their false "morality".

Not false morality! Bad application. Apparently God, or the GSSM has given us the ability to govern ourselves regardless of how bad that government abuses people. Why the heck would we want to give the government power of God even if you believe God exists? An appalling thought!

Frankly, I would ask in counter how a person has any developed morals at all, with nothing but the flimsy 10 commandments as a foundation. "Do not kill" and "do not steal" are the obvious ones children figure out.

/rant

Hey, the 10 commandments are a good start, but they appear in the first 5 books of the bible... you've still got a lot of reading to do. (General statement not directed to Marshaul specifically).
 
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georg jetson

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I firmly believe religion and government should not mix whatsoever.

Impossible. Everyone has a belief system. We are inseparable from our religion. The best we can hope for is what the framers wrote...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, SNIP"

It's clear. Quit trying to force your atheist religion on me using the power of the government to do so.
 
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