Told to Leave Madison Heights Walmart

[Hawkflyer]

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I disagree as well. The idea is not to simply punish a single store or manager. The idea is to raise the issue high enough on Walmart corporates radar that they retrain ALL of their managers and fix the problem throughout the entire chain. The fact that a number of people walk through one Walmart unnoticed, does not change the facts at another store.

The store by store approach you suggest does nothing to effect the corporate bottom line, it simply shift the sales from one profit center to another. What we are protesting here is the fact that Walmart CORPORATE has failed to take a consistent position and enforce that position as it would reasonably be applied in a given jurisdiction. If that position is not in support of firearms carry, so be it, but tell people what the policy is and enforce it uniformly.


Like I said in the original post, most people will not inconvenience themselves by changing their shopping habits to apply economic pressure for political reasons.

Regards

 

[razor_baghdad]

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If WallyWorlds corporate policy is to abide by the state laws, the OP should have stuck to his guns and had a corporate convo IMO.....

To be approached/embarassed in the check out line is unaccaptable, especialy when following the letter of the law.

I will stand my ground, have the local PD called if necessary, and have the publicity needed to make WalMart inform/educate their employees.

This asshat was trying to be an authoritarian above/beyong his means. Grab your nuts and make your case known. To walk out to me is a cop out. Is this not 2008, almost 2009? WallyWorlds policy is well known to OC'ers.

Why are we having this convo anyway?

Make the asshat manager call WW corporate on the spot for clarification, he can then call any LEA of his choosing if he thinks you're in violation of state laws.

I'm quite sure the WW corporate message will be loud and clear to the WW manager, STFU and get back to work!!

 

[Custom Volusia]

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Well, if a chain-wide ban is deemed appropriate, and to me that would involve going back and ACTUALLY be asked to leave, then I can participate. Wal-Mart is BY FAR the easiest store for me to get to, but the Navy Exchange is right next to my work, so I can plan ahead and cope. But again, I would want to see someone actually get kicked out.

 

[kenny]

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I don't understand why anyone shops there anyway. You can't find any store as anti American as they are.

 

[Spoor]

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As far as staying and calling the police, if they ask you to leave, then you can't really stick around. Although it is technically public property to some extent. Though it would be more embarrassing to Walmart for you to just leave after the cops get there. I just wouldn't want to get charged with trespassing which is all that they can do.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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You have to leave when asked. If you wait for the police to be called orarrive you waited too long. The trespass code is fairly clear on that point (in Virginia). You have to leave when asked.

 

[Custom Volusia]

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The OP was never asked to leave.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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Custom Volusia wrote:

The OP was never asked to leave.

Yea I know, and IMHO and he should have stood his ground until asked to do so.

But once asked to leave you are nuts if you stay and wait for the police to be called and show up. At that point you are in violation of the law, and you will have to deal with the consequences. A number of the posts in this thread either state or imply that you should hang out to discuss the matter with the police. WRONG!

The police are there to ENFORCE the trespass laws. That COULD mean arresting you.

Regards

 

[Citizen]

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Hawkflyer wrote:

Custom Volusia wrote:

The OP was never asked to leave.

Yea I know, and IMHO and he should have stood his ground until asked to do so.

I think we open the door to serious problems if we try to get too precise on certain points.

In the OP, it is plain that the manager/agentdoes not want the firearm in the store, even though that person does not explicitly ask him to remove it on this occasion.

Fuzzy thinking is a hallmark of gun-haters.

What happens when the OCer walks away to continue shopping because he hasn't been asked to leave, the manager calls police, and then swears she asked him to put the gun in the car or stay gone altogether?

You know how that will go. "Oh, yes. I made it plain we did not want the gun in the store." And she will honestly believe this.

And if it is an OC-unfriendly cop, do we think he's really going to ask her for her precise phrasing?

And if the cop asks the OCer, "Did she tell you to leave?" (And, buddy, you can bet he's not just asking for clarity, he'll also be fishing for a confession.) And the OCer says, "No, ..."

What's the cop gonna do? At the best, the OCer is gonna get escorted out, an otherwise free man with no court date.

I would advise,

1. Don't jump to a conclusion that you are wanted gone. It may be that the manager doesn't mind guns, isn't really sure of the policy, but has to handle the customer complaint somehow.

2. If, after some discussion, you haven't been expressly asked to leave, but it is also not clear it is OK to remain, seize the initiative and ask.

Now you don't have to ask, "Do you want me gone?" You can ask, "Alright, I understand some people might be uncomfortable. Is it alright if I continue shopping?"

If its clear from tone and expression that you are not wanted, even if not expressly stated, you can just ask, "Am I being asked to leave?" You already know the likely answer; you're just asking for sake of clarity.



Long story short,you can cause things to happen. You don't have to sit aroundbeing the effect of the other person's failure to be clear. Just ask.

 

[leprechaun117]

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Citizen wrote:

Long story short, you can cause things to happen.  You don't have to sit around being the effect of the other person's failure to be clear.  Just ask.
[/quote]

Well said.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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Citizen wrote:

...SNIP

I think we open the door to serious problems if we try to get too precise on certain points.

In the OP, it is plain that the manager/agentdoes not want the firearm in the store, even though that person does not explicitly ask him to remove it on this occasion.

Fuzzy thinking is a hallmark of gun-haters.

What happens when the OCer walks away to continue shopping because he hasn't been asked to leave, the manager calls police, and then swears she asked him to put the gun in the car or stay gone altogether?

...SNIP...

Long story short,you can cause things to happen. You don't have to sit aroundbeing the effect of the other person's failure to be clear. Just ask.

While I don't want to put too fine a point on this, Trespass happens to be an area of the law that I have had a lot of experience with. The code is very clear - (Highlighting added)


https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-119

§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.


Notification is a REQUIRED element of the violation itself. If there is no AFFIRMATIVE notification then there is NO violation. This is particularly true where there is no prominently posted sign. In the absence of the signs, you must be EXPLICITLY asked to leave by a person with the proper authorityBEFORE you can be arrested. In other words the law recognizes that you cannot be guilty of trespass unless you have full knowledge that you are someplace you are not supposed to be. A simple expression of discomfort at the presence of someone does not cut it. They MUST ask you to leave.

In many jurisdictions the police will not enforce the trespassing statute unless you first file a letter with them stating that you will follow up in court if the Officer makes an arrest, and in most jurisdictions the police will require you to notify a person by certified mail that they are to stay off your property before they will arrest them.

The only way you will get arrested is if the store manager UNAMBIGUOUSLY tells you to leave the premises, you fail to leave, the police arrive, and you resist being escorted from the premises. Otherwise the officer will escort you out and let you go.
Now obviously if you push it to that point the Officer will probably harass you about your weapon and maybe a lot of other stuff.

If you read my post in context, I am not suggesting pushing the limits or stepping on the rights of others. All I am saying is that before I would leave, I would require that the store manager meet the minimum enforcement standards established by the courts in Virginia for a trespassing violation.

Regards

 

[Citizen]

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Hawkflyer wrote:

SNIP If you read my post in context, I am not suggesting pushing the limits or stepping on the rights of others. All I am saying is that before I would leave, I would require that the store manager meet the minimum enforcement standards established by the courts in Virginia for a trespassing violation.

I think we are in agreement then.

My point was to not get too focused on and too reliant on the exact legal wording weighed against the facts. Other factors enter in. Like whether the witness lies or honestly misrepresents whether notification was given.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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Citizen wrote:

...SNIP
I think we are in agreement then.

SNIP...

+1

I did not mean to imply that you should not pursue a discussion with the person to seek clarification. If that was the impression I left in the original post, I thank you for the correction.

Regards

 

[hometheaterman]

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I know this is old but what ever happened with this?

 

[useful_idiot]

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kenny wrote:

I don't understand why anyone shops there anyway. You can't find any store as anti American as they are.

One word: AMMO. It's not made in China and it's less expensive than anywhere else.

 

[jmelvin]

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Not a thing hometheaterman. Although I'm not the original poster I've been in and out of that store OC-ing since this even happened with not a peep made about my firearm.

 

[AbNo]

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useful_idiot wrote:

kenny wrote:

I don't understand why anyone shops there anyway. You can't find any store as anti American as they are.

One word: AMMO. It's not made in China and it's less expensive than anywhere else.

Have you shopped Georgia Arms (back when they weren't on a month-and-a-half backlog)?

 

[NLHopkins]

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Open carried there last night, no problems. Saw management and they saw me. Although, the store manager was not among them.

 

[Spoor]

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Not many choices in the Madison Heights area for cheap ammo! For personal defense loads, I go to a gun store.

 

[jmelvin]

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Spoor what gun stores do you go to around here other than perhaps Ace Hardware and Timberlake Sporting Goods?