AaronS
Regular Member
imported post
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
If it's hot tar, and feather related, I would have to guess it was me...
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Upcoming CCW + Open Carry Class
- Thread starter JJC
- Start date
hunter9mm
Regular Member
imported post
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
.. or cut WAY back on the Caffeine or something.....:what::what::what::what::what:
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
I usually just sit back and listen (and laugh) at most of this "D vs. The world" stuff but this time I think Doug needs to remember pass a bit more.....
Dustiniac
Banned
imported post
Doug does deserve all of it. He is a troll, I do believe that is universally agreed upon.
Doug does deserve all of it. He is a troll, I do believe that is universally agreed upon.
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
imported post
paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
A couple of clarifications.
First, Wisconsin Carry didn't set up the class. A discount was offered to our members. We agreed to pass along notification of that discount as a service to our members who might wish to (of their own free will) participate.
Wisconsin Carry does not advocate for compulsory training. The government has no business requiring a training course for the right to protect yourself. Ultimately, Wisconsin Carry is working towards a vermont/alaska/soon-to-be-AZ style non-permitted conceal carry law.
Having said that, you are all men (and women) of free will. I assume its clear to you that the mere offering of a training course is by no means an endorsement of mandatory training!
Wisconsin Carry supports the free market. We believe in the ability of man (and woman) to decide what is best for himself (or herself).
Please do not mistake our passing along the offering of a discount for an advanced firearms training course to our members as an endorsement of mandatory government training.
It is not.
Stay free... Decide for yourself if you would like to explore advanced firearm training from a for-profit businessman. Do not assume that just because something is for-profit that it is to be condemned. (and don't assume that because something carries the government tax-classification of non-profit that it is of noble nature) Our free country was founded (and prospered) by a free market where free men used their power as consumers and the control over the dollars they spend to patronize businesses that deliver value and ignore businesses that do not.
In addition, I'm confident that the men (and women) here are of confident and self-assured nature to recognize that developing skills and techniques of self-defense with a firearm doesn't come ONLY from those who make a profession out of training. Many of us are students of life. We are self-taught. We observe, analyze and incorporate expertise into our behaviors from our own experiences and research.
Free men... Self-taught men, should not be offended by the offering of training to those who would rather rely on a professional for their training. We all learn differently. Some of the greatest rock-star guitar players in the world were self taught. No book, no teacher, no lessons. On the other hand some of the greatest rock-star guitar players in the world bought books, took lessons, and had teachers as their method to learn. We all learn differently.
The mission of Wisconsin Carry is to encourage ANYONE who has a desire to protect themselves to be comfortable embracing their right to self-defense by the carry of a firearm. It is our goal to bring people who may have NO firearm experience into our organization. Would you discourage those kinds of new members who perhaps didn't grow up with gun-knowledgeable mentors and sportsman families to teach through practice from utilizing professional training?
One last thing of note. As an organization, our ultimate goal is to obtain TRUE "un-infringed" right to keep and bear arms in Wisconsin. In the meantime, we won't allow the gun rights crowd in Wisconsin to be splintered right down the middle by a refusal to accept a conceal carry law that may contain mandatory training. WE DON'T ADVOCATE for mandatory training, but we support any CC bill that expands the opportunity to carry WITHOUT sacrificing the pure rights we already have. AS demonstrated by Arizona and Alaska, EVEN states where Conceal Carry begins with a permit system, TRUE un-infringed right to carry can be achieved down the road with an incremental approach.
We didn't lose our rights in one fell swoop, we won't get them back in one fell swoop, but lets keep moving forward (never backward). Permitted conceal carry DOES lead to non-permitted conceal carry.
Be your own man, decide for yourself if you want to use a resource for your advanced gun-training or self-teach. Either is acceptable.
paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
A couple of clarifications.
First, Wisconsin Carry didn't set up the class. A discount was offered to our members. We agreed to pass along notification of that discount as a service to our members who might wish to (of their own free will) participate.
Wisconsin Carry does not advocate for compulsory training. The government has no business requiring a training course for the right to protect yourself. Ultimately, Wisconsin Carry is working towards a vermont/alaska/soon-to-be-AZ style non-permitted conceal carry law.
Having said that, you are all men (and women) of free will. I assume its clear to you that the mere offering of a training course is by no means an endorsement of mandatory training!
Wisconsin Carry supports the free market. We believe in the ability of man (and woman) to decide what is best for himself (or herself).
Please do not mistake our passing along the offering of a discount for an advanced firearms training course to our members as an endorsement of mandatory government training.
It is not.
Stay free... Decide for yourself if you would like to explore advanced firearm training from a for-profit businessman. Do not assume that just because something is for-profit that it is to be condemned. (and don't assume that because something carries the government tax-classification of non-profit that it is of noble nature) Our free country was founded (and prospered) by a free market where free men used their power as consumers and the control over the dollars they spend to patronize businesses that deliver value and ignore businesses that do not.
In addition, I'm confident that the men (and women) here are of confident and self-assured nature to recognize that developing skills and techniques of self-defense with a firearm doesn't come ONLY from those who make a profession out of training. Many of us are students of life. We are self-taught. We observe, analyze and incorporate expertise into our behaviors from our own experiences and research.
Free men... Self-taught men, should not be offended by the offering of training to those who would rather rely on a professional for their training. We all learn differently. Some of the greatest rock-star guitar players in the world were self taught. No book, no teacher, no lessons. On the other hand some of the greatest rock-star guitar players in the world bought books, took lessons, and had teachers as their method to learn. We all learn differently.
The mission of Wisconsin Carry is to encourage ANYONE who has a desire to protect themselves to be comfortable embracing their right to self-defense by the carry of a firearm. It is our goal to bring people who may have NO firearm experience into our organization. Would you discourage those kinds of new members who perhaps didn't grow up with gun-knowledgeable mentors and sportsman families to teach through practice from utilizing professional training?
One last thing of note. As an organization, our ultimate goal is to obtain TRUE "un-infringed" right to keep and bear arms in Wisconsin. In the meantime, we won't allow the gun rights crowd in Wisconsin to be splintered right down the middle by a refusal to accept a conceal carry law that may contain mandatory training. WE DON'T ADVOCATE for mandatory training, but we support any CC bill that expands the opportunity to carry WITHOUT sacrificing the pure rights we already have. AS demonstrated by Arizona and Alaska, EVEN states where Conceal Carry begins with a permit system, TRUE un-infringed right to carry can be achieved down the road with an incremental approach.
We didn't lose our rights in one fell swoop, we won't get them back in one fell swoop, but lets keep moving forward (never backward). Permitted conceal carry DOES lead to non-permitted conceal carry.
Be your own man, decide for yourself if you want to use a resource for your advanced gun-training or self-teach. Either is acceptable.
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
imported post
Nik,
I did not in any way mean to imply you should be getting crap for publishing a class, all I was trying to get across to Doug is that he is being an ass about one training class and not another.
I agree with your statement.
Nik,
I did not in any way mean to imply you should be getting crap for publishing a class, all I was trying to get across to Doug is that he is being an ass about one training class and not another.
I agree with your statement.
J.Gleason
Banned
imported post
I just don't agree with the flood of Minnesota instructors coming in to prey on Wisconsin carriers.
Where are the Wisconsin Instructors? This is becoming nothing more than a business venture.
I appreciate that WCI has posted a "Defensive handgun" class on the WCI site.
WCI stands for all forms of carry. Nothing wrong with that. Although I would like to see it taught by Wisconsin Instructors instead of more people from Minnesota.
Things are going to be happening here in Wisconsin in the near future and these instructors from other states are going to be flocking here to try and cash in on the money.
Here is a link that may be of some help to those individuals who are looking for knowledge and would like to learn more about self defense. The cost, $0.00.
http://www.foprangeinc.com/self.htm
I am sure you will learn just about everything here that you have or will learn in one of these 4 hour CCW classes. If there is something covered in one of those CCW classes that is not found in the FOPRange free course, let me know and I will find that information or a link to that information for you free of charge.
It is very important to remember, the SCOTUS has specifically stated, "We do not have to be trained, registered or pay a fee to exercise our Constitutional Rights."
By everyone flocking to these instructors, it sends a message to SCOTUS that we are OK with spending our hard earned dollars in order to exercise our rights.
It is these types of actions that will begin to change the way that the SCOTUS analyzes the issues brought before them.
As an example, the Mc Donald case. How would everyone here feel if SCOTUS members had browsed this forum and read all of this Horse puckey about training and CCW clases and Reading posts about how "Everyone should have some type of training," and then the Scotus comes out with the decision that while the 2nd in incorporated to the states, mandated training is necessary and is a requirement?
How would you all feel about that? Because if that happens, the price of that training just sky rocketed and the profiteers are on their way to being rich because many of you will do absolutely anything to have a CCW permit (Privilege to Carry).
I think this is the message that Doug is trying to send you. Many of you are just being to hard headed to listen.
I think my friend Nutzcak has already reinterated to all of you that if you give an inch they will take a mile. Give in to voluntary classes and watch them become mandatory.
If you don't think this will happen, I can post some legislation that will prove otherwise.
Look no farther then H.R. 2454 (Cap and Trade bill).
All of these people who have jumped on the chance to get these tax credits and discounts for making your homes energy efficient have done nothing more than bring about legislation to force you to license your Home. That is right. Your Home!
You will not be able to sell your Home unless it meets all of the requirements of the law.
For God's sake wake up people!
I just don't agree with the flood of Minnesota instructors coming in to prey on Wisconsin carriers.
Where are the Wisconsin Instructors? This is becoming nothing more than a business venture.
I appreciate that WCI has posted a "Defensive handgun" class on the WCI site.
WCI stands for all forms of carry. Nothing wrong with that. Although I would like to see it taught by Wisconsin Instructors instead of more people from Minnesota.
Things are going to be happening here in Wisconsin in the near future and these instructors from other states are going to be flocking here to try and cash in on the money.
Here is a link that may be of some help to those individuals who are looking for knowledge and would like to learn more about self defense. The cost, $0.00.
http://www.foprangeinc.com/self.htm
I am sure you will learn just about everything here that you have or will learn in one of these 4 hour CCW classes. If there is something covered in one of those CCW classes that is not found in the FOPRange free course, let me know and I will find that information or a link to that information for you free of charge.
It is very important to remember, the SCOTUS has specifically stated, "We do not have to be trained, registered or pay a fee to exercise our Constitutional Rights."
By everyone flocking to these instructors, it sends a message to SCOTUS that we are OK with spending our hard earned dollars in order to exercise our rights.
It is these types of actions that will begin to change the way that the SCOTUS analyzes the issues brought before them.
As an example, the Mc Donald case. How would everyone here feel if SCOTUS members had browsed this forum and read all of this Horse puckey about training and CCW clases and Reading posts about how "Everyone should have some type of training," and then the Scotus comes out with the decision that while the 2nd in incorporated to the states, mandated training is necessary and is a requirement?
How would you all feel about that? Because if that happens, the price of that training just sky rocketed and the profiteers are on their way to being rich because many of you will do absolutely anything to have a CCW permit (Privilege to Carry).
I think this is the message that Doug is trying to send you. Many of you are just being to hard headed to listen.
I think my friend Nutzcak has already reinterated to all of you that if you give an inch they will take a mile. Give in to voluntary classes and watch them become mandatory.
If you don't think this will happen, I can post some legislation that will prove otherwise.
Look no farther then H.R. 2454 (Cap and Trade bill).
All of these people who have jumped on the chance to get these tax credits and discounts for making your homes energy efficient have done nothing more than bring about legislation to force you to license your Home. That is right. Your Home!
You will not be able to sell your Home unless it meets all of the requirements of the law.
For God's sake wake up people!
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
imported post
OK. If that's what Doug meant than he wasn't very good about describing it that way.
I understand the whole 'slippery slope' argument, however, I pay for training for all sorts of stuff. Shouldn't a person who uses their time to teach me something be reimbursed?
I do agree that training shouldn't be mandatory, since firearms are a right, I'm just saying that training in its self, and paying for training isn't necessarily evil.
Don't we pay for range time?
OK. If that's what Doug meant than he wasn't very good about describing it that way.
I understand the whole 'slippery slope' argument, however, I pay for training for all sorts of stuff. Shouldn't a person who uses their time to teach me something be reimbursed?
I do agree that training shouldn't be mandatory, since firearms are a right, I'm just saying that training in its self, and paying for training isn't necessarily evil.
Don't we pay for range time?
J.Gleason
Banned
imported post
paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
Isn't spent on the instructors next new AR10 or Desert Eagle handgun or New Truck.
It is much like WCI. The money spent on membership is used for the cause not to by Nik a new bike or Hubert a new PC or Euric a new hand gun. Those funds go directly into the legal fund. Though I am sure some was used for the decals, but that is understandable and still is not a profit.
Doug's point is, and he speaks as a former NRA firearms instructor, that everything you learn in these classes for a fee can be learned for free simply by researching the information or asking other people who have the experience already.
Don't fall into the money trap. If you want to give your money away, give it to WCI for the legal fund. It is a more reasonable expenditure.
paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
Sure do and that money is used for upkeep and utilities if it is an indoor range.
Isn't spent on the instructors next new AR10 or Desert Eagle handgun or New Truck.
It is much like WCI. The money spent on membership is used for the cause not to by Nik a new bike or Hubert a new PC or Euric a new hand gun. Those funds go directly into the legal fund. Though I am sure some was used for the decals, but that is understandable and still is not a profit.
Doug's point is, and he speaks as a former NRA firearms instructor, that everything you learn in these classes for a fee can be learned for free simply by researching the information or asking other people who have the experience already.
Don't fall into the money trap. If you want to give your money away, give it to WCI for the legal fund. It is a more reasonable expenditure.
hunter9mm
Regular Member
imported post
The one thing we seem to forget is that we can OC in Wisconsin. It's a right, I don't need any training, PER WI. statutes to OC. We know that to be true. Although the guy in Arizona that shot a hole in the ceiling (apparently) had NO basic handgun training. I think that someone mentioned in an earlier post, that Wisconsin is a state deeply embedded in a heritage of hunting, and most "Gun People" of today have had their Father's teach them the basics of safe gun handling. That in-and-of itself is sufficient to OC. That being SAID - OC is NORMALLY just that, I mean from the zippered case, to the holster and back at the end of the day.
There are others that feel (and I'm one of them) that I need to learn more! Not the how to hit what I aim at, or the 4 rules of safe gun handling, I already can do that quite well. I want to learn under what conditions and circumstances, IF I need to defend myself in a critical situation, can I do so WITHOUT spending the next 10 - 20 in prison, AND having to spend $30K on a Lawyer. INHO Now that education, to me is worth spending my hard earned $200.00 on, and I really do not care what the instructor buys with his cut of my fee!
My 2 cents worth!!!
The one thing we seem to forget is that we can OC in Wisconsin. It's a right, I don't need any training, PER WI. statutes to OC. We know that to be true. Although the guy in Arizona that shot a hole in the ceiling (apparently) had NO basic handgun training. I think that someone mentioned in an earlier post, that Wisconsin is a state deeply embedded in a heritage of hunting, and most "Gun People" of today have had their Father's teach them the basics of safe gun handling. That in-and-of itself is sufficient to OC. That being SAID - OC is NORMALLY just that, I mean from the zippered case, to the holster and back at the end of the day.
There are others that feel (and I'm one of them) that I need to learn more! Not the how to hit what I aim at, or the 4 rules of safe gun handling, I already can do that quite well. I want to learn under what conditions and circumstances, IF I need to defend myself in a critical situation, can I do so WITHOUT spending the next 10 - 20 in prison, AND having to spend $30K on a Lawyer. INHO Now that education, to me is worth spending my hard earned $200.00 on, and I really do not care what the instructor buys with his cut of my fee!
My 2 cents worth!!!
Dustiniac
Banned
imported post
Last I checked this is America, whats wrong with someone trying to make money?
Its not illegal to offer training.
Last I checked this is America, whats wrong with someone trying to make money?
Its not illegal to offer training.
J.Gleason
Banned
imported post
Wanted to point out that it was brought to my attention that JJC is a Wisconsin native and not from Minnesota.
Just want to be fair and not mislead anyone.
I believe a lot of this mess could be cleared up and off of this forum if these classes are simply announced and then anyone interested respond through private PM's.
That way no one here can say anyone is here promoting CCW on an OC forum or anything else.
It is free country. Spend you money as you wish.
If there is anything I can do to help you with what ever questions you have I will try my best for free. If I can not answer your questions I will find the answers for free.
Until then, Spring is here, the sun is shining, Carry On and Carry always!
Peace!
Wanted to point out that it was brought to my attention that JJC is a Wisconsin native and not from Minnesota.
Just want to be fair and not mislead anyone.
I believe a lot of this mess could be cleared up and off of this forum if these classes are simply announced and then anyone interested respond through private PM's.
That way no one here can say anyone is here promoting CCW on an OC forum or anything else.
It is free country. Spend you money as you wish.
If there is anything I can do to help you with what ever questions you have I will try my best for free. If I can not answer your questions I will find the answers for free.
Until then, Spring is here, the sun is shining, Carry On and Carry always!
Peace!
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
imported post
Along those lines, I will discuss with the board the possibility of putting a page on our site for Wisconsin Carry Members who offer training. Many of our members are firearms instructors and without endorsing any particular one, I'll discuss with the board the possibility of offering a list of WCI members who are instructors in case anyone was seeking a resource.
Along those lines, I will discuss with the board the possibility of putting a page on our site for Wisconsin Carry Members who offer training. Many of our members are firearms instructors and without endorsing any particular one, I'll discuss with the board the possibility of offering a list of WCI members who are instructors in case anyone was seeking a resource.
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
imported post
J.Gleason wrote:
So?? Do you do your job for just enough money to provide food and shelter and no wants?
Until recently, I worked on cars (currently unemployed) and I charged enough that I have a decent house, my wife drove a BMW, I have a 52" HD TV, I drove a Mercedes for a while, what's the difference? It's a supply and demand thing. Personally I am a new enough weapon handler (bought my 1st firearm 3 years ago) that I am willing to pay someone to teach me. I understand that I can probably find all the information for free but I find I learn better if someone shows it to me and then watches me practice. I wouldn't expect them to help me out for nothing.
I'm not going to comment on this topic anymore. I guess in conclusion, we get all up in arms (pun intended) when someone tries to deprive us of our 2nd amendment rights and then we complain because some guy wants to use the free enterprise, capitalistic system our forefathers fought and died for.
If you don't want/need the training, don't sign up.
Also, why does it matter if the trainer is from Minnesota or Wisconsin? Let someone based in Wisconsin setup a class.
J.Gleason wrote:
So?? Do you do your job for just enough money to provide food and shelter and no wants?
Until recently, I worked on cars (currently unemployed) and I charged enough that I have a decent house, my wife drove a BMW, I have a 52" HD TV, I drove a Mercedes for a while, what's the difference? It's a supply and demand thing. Personally I am a new enough weapon handler (bought my 1st firearm 3 years ago) that I am willing to pay someone to teach me. I understand that I can probably find all the information for free but I find I learn better if someone shows it to me and then watches me practice. I wouldn't expect them to help me out for nothing.
I'm not going to comment on this topic anymore. I guess in conclusion, we get all up in arms (pun intended) when someone tries to deprive us of our 2nd amendment rights and then we complain because some guy wants to use the free enterprise, capitalistic system our forefathers fought and died for.
If you don't want/need the training, don't sign up.
Also, why does it matter if the trainer is from Minnesota or Wisconsin? Let someone based in Wisconsin setup a class.
J.Gleason
Banned
imported post
paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
Like I said earlier, If you feel you need training, go for it. I only get disgusted when people try to persuade others that they "Need" to have training. I think it should be a decision that a person needs to make on their own.
Mandated training or mandatory training is a no no IMHO.
paul@paul-fisher.com wrote:
Paul, it matters where they are from beause it was not all that long ago, there were trainers from minnesota that came here and were trying to influence our legislators into including mandated training into our carry bill. IMHO that is crossing the line. It was all about the money for them. Anyone who has been here any length of time knows who I am referring to so there is no need to mention names.
Like I said earlier, If you feel you need training, go for it. I only get disgusted when people try to persuade others that they "Need" to have training. I think it should be a decision that a person needs to make on their own.
Mandated training or mandatory training is a no no IMHO.
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
imported post
You know... I think you both (paul and james) raise great points.
James, I had forgotten the person of which you speak. Thank-you for reminding me.
Paul, you are on the right track also. Free enterprise works. It really does...
This is a difficult issue for freedom minded people. We ALL know that "uninfringed" is pretty damn clear. "What part of uninfringed don't people understand". At the same time, getting BACK to uninfringed from where we are now is a long process. To be honest, our rights will never be safe. We will always face threats from those that would make elective training mandatory despite the fact that training is a good thing.
For this reason, I'm confident there will be a role for Wisconsin Carry and freedom minded guys like you EVEN after we get a CC law here in Wisconsin. Our founding fathers crafted a DAMN near perfect system of government 200+ years ago, and they spelled out the virtues of a government OF the people FOR the people and BY the people. The fact that a government conceived in such well thought-out nativity has turned into what we have today is proof indeed that freedom must never be left unguarded. No government is anarchy. Too much government is tyranny... It is OUR obligation to advocate for freedom EVERY day. It is OUR obligation to teach our children to advocate for freedom every day of their life. Freedom must always be guarded.
Carry On.
You know... I think you both (paul and james) raise great points.
James, I had forgotten the person of which you speak. Thank-you for reminding me.
Paul, you are on the right track also. Free enterprise works. It really does...
This is a difficult issue for freedom minded people. We ALL know that "uninfringed" is pretty damn clear. "What part of uninfringed don't people understand". At the same time, getting BACK to uninfringed from where we are now is a long process. To be honest, our rights will never be safe. We will always face threats from those that would make elective training mandatory despite the fact that training is a good thing.
For this reason, I'm confident there will be a role for Wisconsin Carry and freedom minded guys like you EVEN after we get a CC law here in Wisconsin. Our founding fathers crafted a DAMN near perfect system of government 200+ years ago, and they spelled out the virtues of a government OF the people FOR the people and BY the people. The fact that a government conceived in such well thought-out nativity has turned into what we have today is proof indeed that freedom must never be left unguarded. No government is anarchy. Too much government is tyranny... It is OUR obligation to advocate for freedom EVERY day. It is OUR obligation to teach our children to advocate for freedom every day of their life. Freedom must always be guarded.
Carry On.
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
imported post
I guess you are right. I don't know the history.
I also agree completely that training should not be mandated for CC or OC. My wish is unrestricted like AK.
Peace to all and Carry On!
I guess you are right. I don't know the history.
I also agree completely that training should not be mandated for CC or OC. My wish is unrestricted like AK.
Peace to all and Carry On!
M
McX
Guest
imported post
some of the best training, guidance, insight, and experience is available from fellow oc-ers. and it doesn't cost a dime!
some of the best training, guidance, insight, and experience is available from fellow oc-ers. and it doesn't cost a dime!
BROKENSPROKET
Regular Member
imported post
I want a shirt that says that........
What part of, SHALL NOT BE INGRINGED, do you not understand?
IF someone posts a link to one, I am buying it.
I want a shirt that says that........
What part of, SHALL NOT BE INGRINGED, do you not understand?
IF someone posts a link to one, I am buying it.
