update on Waterford School district

[DrTodd]

Sb 58?

That's not an agenda... that's a particular bill. Now, if you asked if that bill supported our agenda, the answer would be...

 

[stainless1911]

Yes.

It would be one of the primary objectives. Closely followed by preemption, constitutional carry, and permit less vehicle carry. But how many ru of the mill gun owners are that familiar with it?

 

[DrTodd]

Since I would guess about 45% of Michigan's households have a firearm present (extrapolating national percentage for state data), I would posit that many "gun owners" aren't all that political. CPL holders, however, I think would have a higher interest in the bill and would be more likely to know about it. But, is that "lack of an agenda" on the part of MI gun organizations or just the apathy that is present in any large sample of the population?

 

[stainless1911]

Lack in communication between the leaders in activism, and the gun owners as a whole. Apathy closely follows. The more a person really realizes whats going on, the more active they become in participation for a solution. Mose gun owners aren't online. Id say, most gun owners don't carry. Then there are a fewer number of those who CC. An even fewer number are on forums. Of those, fewer still are active. A few of those write or call the legislature. A select few among those are OCers, there are a few of us who actively pursue real change. There are some leaders, and professionals among us. But there is division in all of these ranks.

We cant get everyone who owns to carry, everyone who carries to OC, and all of them to agree, but we need to get everyone in the loop, whether they are online or not, so we are all on the same page at the same time. That way, we can move forward with an unstoppable force to change laws, and elect our own.

 

[stainless1911]

We need to "campaign" our ideas, to advertise and sell the idea as a product.

 

[DrTodd]

Lack in communication between the leaders in activism, and the gun owners as a whole. Apathy closely follows. The more a person really realizes whats going on, the more active they become in participation for a solution. Mose gun owners aren't online. Id say, most gun owners don't carry. Then there are a fewer number of those who CC. An even fewer number are on forums. Of those, fewer still are active. A few of those write or call the legislature. A select few among those are OCers, there are a few of us who actively pursue real change. There are some leaders, and professionals among us. But there is division in all of these ranks.

We cant get everyone who owns to carry, everyone who carries to OC, and all of them to agree, but we need to get everyone in the loop, whether they are online or not, so we are all on the same page at the same time. That way, we can move forward with an unstoppable force to change laws, and elect our own.

Question: Did you always feel the way you do now about "guns"?

 

[TheQ]

We need to "campaign" our ideas, to advertise and sell the idea as a product.

You mean -- like we do on Facebook and with our Legislative Action Alert list?

 

[stainless1911]

No. It built up gradually, and for me, quite naturally. One day I realized, and I remember it distinctly. I said to myself aloud, "Well, I guess I'm an activist now", with a little grin.

Then it went from there. The more opposition I have, the stronger I get.

Like the hungrier you are, the harder you'll look for, or fight for food.

 

[stainless1911]

You mean -- like we do on Facebook and with our Legislative Action Alert list?

Yes, things like that. Im on the action mailing list. Activism trifolds that explain what we are doing and how to get involved would help too, placed where gun owners go, magasine ads, tv and radio commercials would help too, but I realise this costs money.

 

[DrTodd]

Not they they are better about gun rights (actually much worse), I did learn something while living in Germany I will never forget.

At the time, I was living in a city of about 100,000. I was taking the streetcar to my job when an older gentleman told me I would be smart to get off at the next stop and walk the rest of the way to work; there was a protest regarding the tax levied on Germans due to their participation in Gulf War I. I laughed and decided not to heed his warning... a HUGE mistake. In this city of 100,000 there were over 50,000 people demonstrating against this tax and they effectively shut down the city's transportation hub. My way of thinking was American: a protest? Wow, I bet there are all of about 10 people walking around with a few signs and everyone else ignoring them and generally going about their business. Now, I am in no way advocating the general lawlessness of mass crowds. But, what struck me was the sheer number of people who actively took part in this. Agree with the sentiment of those so assembled or not, it certainly made an impression.
Later that day I spoke with an older gentleman, and I expressed my shock at the number of people who were present. He stated an opinion I will never forget: Well, you don't get that kind of protest in the US because Americans are "comfortable". He went on to explain that he felt that Americans were so used to air-conditioning, being able to drive with cheap gas, using elevators instead of stairs, etc that we have become opposed to anything that makes us uncomfortable... that we live for an immediate meeting of our needs, and expending the least amount of energy in meeting those needs. I had to admit that there was some truth in what he said. Most Americans live their lives, going about their business, just focussed on their immediate situation. They are oblivious to so many issues because they are so focussed on their jobs, their home, and their daily life to such a degree that they don't have the energy to even focus on anything else. In a word, we just live our lives oblivious to things going on around us. I think it is fair to say that most people have never written a letter to a representative aout a bill they either agreed with or didn't, ever signed a petition regarding something we say we believe in, let alone take a day off work to protest something that affected us. It is sad to think that there is some truth to what this man said, no matter what side of any issue you may find yourself.

 

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

It's about the women, as they go so do the country. Just saying....

Not they they are better about gun rights (actually much worse), I did learn something while living in Germany I will never forget.

At the time, I was living in a city of about 100,000. I was taking the streetcar to my job when an older gentleman told me I would be smart to get off at the next stop and walk the rest of the way to work; there was a protest regarding the tax levied on Germans due to their participation in Gulf War I. I laughed and decided not to heed his warning... a HUGE mistake. In this city of 100,000 there were over 50,000 people demonstrating against this tax and they effectively shut down the city's transportation hub. My way of thinking was American: a protest? Wow, I bet there are all of about 10 people walking around with a few signs and everyone else ignoring them and generally going about their business. Now, I am in no way advocating the general lawlessness of mass crowds. But, what struck me was the sheer number of people who actively took part in this. Agree with the sentiment of those so assembled or not, it certainly made an impression.
Later that day I spoke with an older gentleman, and I expressed my shock at the number of people who were present. He stated an opinion I will never forget: Well, you don't get that kind of protest in the US because Americans are "comfortable". He went on to explain that he felt that Americans were so used to air-conditioning, being able to drive with cheap gas, using elevators instead of stairs, etc that we have become opposed to anything that makes us uncomfortable... that we live for an immediate meeting of our needs, and expending the least amount of energy in meeting those needs. I had to admit that there was some truth in what he said. Most Americans live their lives, going about their business, just focussed on their immediate situation. They are oblivious to so many issues because they are so focussed on their jobs, their home, and their daily life to such a degree that they don't have the energy to even focus on anything else. In a word, we just live our lives oblivious to things going on around us. I think it is fair to say that most people have never written a letter to a representative aout a bill they either agreed with or didn't, ever signed a petition regarding something we say we believe in, let alone take a day off work to protest something that affected us. It is sad to think that there is some truth to what this man said, no matter what side of any issue you may find yourself.

All of the above is true. I referenced AZ earlier because they "appear" (grass is always greener or sand browner I guess) to have a population much more sensitive to Constitutional infringements. It's my belief that in general the more main stream people we can include in our actions, the better off we will be as a state & country. How we do this best is a challenge. One sure way is to actively recruit women. I would be happy to assist in funding several free seminars + training + range time for women at area ranges or state lands open to shooting. In the last month I have had three women ask if I would help them learn to handle firearms and help them prepare for their CPL class. I was more than happy to agree. When 30 armed guys show up at a city council it gets noticed. Now imagine if that was 30 women....the talking heads would go on about it for weeks! Now imagine if entire families men, women and children showed up....

We are making strides in the right direction, but without constant pressure, the people in charge will slip back into their usual contempt for the masses and spit down on us from their ivory towers.

 

[Bikenut]

All of the above is true. I referenced AZ earlier because they "appear" (grass is always greener or sand browner I guess) to have a population much more sensitive to Constitutional infringements. It's my belief that in general the more main stream people we can include in our actions, the better off we will be as a state & country. How we do this best is a challenge. One sure way is to actively recruit women. I would be happy to assist in funding several free seminars + training + range time for women at area ranges or state lands open to shooting. In the last month I have had three women ask if I would help them learn to handle firearms and help them prepare for their CPL class. I was more than happy to agree. When 30 armed guys show up at a city council it gets noticed. Now imagine if that was 30 women....the talking heads would go on about it for weeks! Now imagine if entire families men, women and children showed up....

We are making strides in the right direction, but without constant pressure, the people in charge will slip back into their usual contempt for the masses and spit down on us from their ivory towers.

You are a wise man my friend!

 

[Venator]

My 2 cents on this:

We have power mongers in control of most school districts, this we know already, so the way we beat this illegal practice is to take it apart in pieces.
1) We demonstrate to the public that the only people the law currently protects are CRIMINALS by forcing a large group of unarmed citizens, teachers, and children together in a barrel like "fish" to be easily shot! The current law has teachers defending against armed gunmen by: taping/gluing paper over the class room doors and windows so the bad guy(s) can't see in! Wow, that makes me feel safer - (NOT) - how about you? I and most parents/citizens I know would much rather allow those teachers/staff members who wish to carry a weapon to protect themselves and the kids to do so legally.

2) We work with the Teachers Associations, the service employee unions, etc. to promote new laws to allow them to carry.

3) Once the public sees that this works via drops in school shootings/violence in MI (and there will be a drop as the whack jobs will move on to theaters and other FREE FOR ALL ZONES) their arguments [school districts] for not allowing the rest of the public to carry in schools becomes much, much weaker.

That's how I see it, How do you Guys & Gals?

Better yet, get good people that believe in rights to get on school boards across the state.

 

[Gossip Girl]

Most school districts don't take such a tyrannical approach as Waterford, Grand Rapids, or East Detroit.

I can see where Waterford is taking their stance, based on the criminal mind of the individual involved there.

 

[stainless1911]

...

 

[PDinDetroit]

MI Laws on Interfering with Voting

Assumption: A person with a CPL Open Carries into a School to Vote.

Depending upon the level of "interference", one or more of the following MI Laws would come into play. In these Michigan Laws, an Elector is a Voter.

MCL 600.1825 Arrest; privileged persons.

Sec. 1825.

(1) Every elector is privileged from arrest while going to, attending, and returning from elections in all cases except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace.

MCL 168.932 Prohibited conduct; violation as felony.

Sec. 932.

A person who violates 1 or more of the following subdivisions is guilty of a felony:

(a) A person shall not attempt, by means of bribery, menace, or other corrupt means or device, either directly or indirectly, to influence an elector in giving his or her vote, or to deter the elector from, or interrupt the elector in giving his or her vote at any election held in this state.

MCL 752.11 Upholding or enforcing the law; duty of public officials.

Sec. 1.

Any public official, appointed or elected, who is responsible for enforcing or upholding any law of this state and who wilfully and knowingly fails to uphold or enforce the law with the result that any person's legal rights are denied is guilty of a misdemeanor.


http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-600-1825
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-168-932
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-752-11

 

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

Better yet, get good people that believe in rights to get on school boards across the state.

This is an excellent point V! Just as PD's is. Unfortunately in the most recent case of voter intimidation the Kent Co. Prosecutor did everything including back-flips to try and charge the voter and not the violators of his rights! This is why I think we need a clear state law with teeth that not only targets the violators but also a prosecutors office that does not do their duty with minimum of dereliction of duty and maximum of collusion in a civil rights violation. Currently we have many good laws on the books. Sadly we do not have many good prosecutors willing to enforce them in my opinion,

 

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

You are a wise man my friend!

Not as wise as you Jedi master yogurt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHw6KXbvazs