SFCRetired
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using a real unloaded gun for training
- Thread starter vegasche1023
- Start date
Aaron1124
Regular Member
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SFCRetired wrote:
SFCRetired wrote:
Oh man, we have a real Rex Kwon Do on our hands
big_bake
Regular Member
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Tess wrote:
I understand this to be a safe firearm handling rule, but I'm sorry, if there is no round in the gun it's not loaded. Then gun can be cleared and passed around for all to check themselves that way everyone knows. then training can begin. The gun won't magically load itself during training.
Tess wrote:
I understand this to be a safe firearm handling rule, but I'm sorry, if there is no round in the gun it's not loaded. Then gun can be cleared and passed around for all to check themselves that way everyone knows. then training can begin. The gun won't magically load itself during training.
big_bake
Regular Member
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Tess wrote:
Clearly that statement shows that the gun must be in an unloaded state to be treated as if it is loaded. Yes we treat them that way to be cautious and reduce accidents, but guns can still be in an unloaded condition.
Tess wrote:
Clearly that statement shows that the gun must be in an unloaded state to be treated as if it is loaded. Yes we treat them that way to be cautious and reduce accidents, but guns can still be in an unloaded condition.
SFCRetired
Regular Member
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eye95
Well-known member
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SFCRetired wrote:
SFCRetired wrote:
And another +1
open4years
Regular Member
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My view: Absolutely NEVER should anyone point an "unloaded" gun at another!! There is a police academy in a town that is 30 minutes away, Tifton. GA is the town. There was an excellent instructor there who had trained people there for 30+ years. He was well respected.
One day, in a class room, he pointed a gun at a female cadet (if that is the right term) and he pulled the trigger. The "unloaded" gun fired a round into her chest, killing her. This IS a true story. The instructor was devastated.
What he was teaching, I don't know. Why he was pointing a real gun at someone, I don't know. Why he pulled the trigger, I don't know.
There have been too many times where someone was absolutely sure the gun was "unloaded" yet the gun killed or injured someone.
Two more examples with one that happened to a friend and co-worker of mine, but before I knew him.
A very experienced FBI agent had a target on his office's wall as he practiced dry firing often. One day he was praticing dry firing at the target. He finished and reloaded his gun and then laid it back on his desk. He then got a phone call that was long and made him very mad.
He slammed the phone down and went back to what he had been doing: dry firing his gun. He aimed at the target and pulled the trigger. The bullet went through the target and the wall, then it entered the back of a FBI agents head. He died shortly after being hit.
A co-worker and a friend was sitting in a chair, at home, cleaning his
empty hunting rifle. His empty rifle sent a bullet through a wall and into his wife's head, killing her.
Some at work, including me, doubted that it was accidental. You would have to know him to understand why I doubted his story.
So, my answer remains NO, NEVER
My view: Absolutely NEVER should anyone point an "unloaded" gun at another!! There is a police academy in a town that is 30 minutes away, Tifton. GA is the town. There was an excellent instructor there who had trained people there for 30+ years. He was well respected.
One day, in a class room, he pointed a gun at a female cadet (if that is the right term) and he pulled the trigger. The "unloaded" gun fired a round into her chest, killing her. This IS a true story. The instructor was devastated.
What he was teaching, I don't know. Why he was pointing a real gun at someone, I don't know. Why he pulled the trigger, I don't know.
There have been too many times where someone was absolutely sure the gun was "unloaded" yet the gun killed or injured someone.
Two more examples with one that happened to a friend and co-worker of mine, but before I knew him.
A very experienced FBI agent had a target on his office's wall as he practiced dry firing often. One day he was praticing dry firing at the target. He finished and reloaded his gun and then laid it back on his desk. He then got a phone call that was long and made him very mad.
He slammed the phone down and went back to what he had been doing: dry firing his gun. He aimed at the target and pulled the trigger. The bullet went through the target and the wall, then it entered the back of a FBI agents head. He died shortly after being hit.
A co-worker and a friend was sitting in a chair, at home, cleaning his
empty hunting rifle. His empty rifle sent a bullet through a wall and into his wife's head, killing her.
Some at work, including me, doubted that it was accidental. You would have to know him to understand why I doubted his story.
So, my answer remains NO, NEVER
wrightme
Regular Member
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Tess wrote:
Tess wrote:
No, they are not. You treat them as if they are loaded, unless you personally prove otherwise.
novasig226r
Regular Member
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We can get wrapped up in semantics and our own tautologies all day.
The premise behind Colonel Cooper's first rule is plain and simple. "All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are."
All guns, every single one. Always loaded, 24x7x365.
Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
So, even if you've personally cleared the thing, consider it loaded. I.e. you don't wave it at people.
A pistol rendered inoperable by means of a training barrel does not equal a live weapon. It cannot be made to fire or chamber a round without modification. These steps ensure safety during training. But does it? Did you personally check the weapon? Was it ever set down and barrels changed?
Maybe Col. Cooper banked on common sense in interpretation. Maybe he was a bit to generous. Obviously one can clear a weapon of ammunition and magazine. Note how he said, "even if they are not..."?
Check out rule #2.
But please don't think me a smart alec. The argument is "what is safe"? Cooper covered all this, and one violates the rules at one's own peril.
We can get wrapped up in semantics and our own tautologies all day.
The premise behind Colonel Cooper's first rule is plain and simple. "All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are."
All guns, every single one. Always loaded, 24x7x365.
Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
So, even if you've personally cleared the thing, consider it loaded. I.e. you don't wave it at people.
A pistol rendered inoperable by means of a training barrel does not equal a live weapon. It cannot be made to fire or chamber a round without modification. These steps ensure safety during training. But does it? Did you personally check the weapon? Was it ever set down and barrels changed?
Maybe Col. Cooper banked on common sense in interpretation. Maybe he was a bit to generous. Obviously one can clear a weapon of ammunition and magazine. Note how he said, "even if they are not..."?
Check out rule #2.
But please don't think me a smart alec. The argument is "what is safe"? Cooper covered all this, and one violates the rules at one's own peril.
Hillmann
Regular Member
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The whole, never point a gun at something you don't intend to shoot, has always bothered me. How do you clean them? How do you load a muzzle-loader? How do you transport them in a vehicle? If they are laying down they are constantly pointing either to the side or back or front and will be pointing at thing you don't intend to shoot. How can someone in an apartment complex have a gun in there home? They have neighbors above, below, and on all sides of them.
The whole, never point a gun at something you don't intend to shoot, has always bothered me. How do you clean them? How do you load a muzzle-loader? How do you transport them in a vehicle? If they are laying down they are constantly pointing either to the side or back or front and will be pointing at thing you don't intend to shoot. How can someone in an apartment complex have a gun in there home? They have neighbors above, below, and on all sides of them.
novasig226r
Regular Member
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Hillmann wrote:
I think this goes to the "common sense" that Col. Cooper doesn't address. The rules emphasize safety. To make amendments to include things like "except when cleaning a cleared weapon", "except when training with a cleared weapon" would do nothing except dilute the overarching theme of firearm safety.
The rules are concise, easy to follow, and easily teachable and learnable.
"Booger hook off the bang switch."
Hillmann wrote:
I think this goes to the "common sense" that Col. Cooper doesn't address. The rules emphasize safety. To make amendments to include things like "except when cleaning a cleared weapon", "except when training with a cleared weapon" would do nothing except dilute the overarching theme of firearm safety.
The rules are concise, easy to follow, and easily teachable and learnable.
"Booger hook off the bang switch."
imported post
The muzzle loader you are not going to get around not pointing it at some part of your body at sometime even when it is loaded, but I sure don't point it at anybody at any time.
When it is laying there it is not in your hand so you are not pointing it at anyone, but when I have it laying in a vehicle I make sure it is not pointing at me or someone in the vehicle. Also when it is in you holster, it is at different times going to be pointing at others as you sit or lay or stand, but it is in a holster with the trigger covered and you aren't handling it and pointing it at others.
But I agree with treat all weapons as if they are loaded. It seems most people are shot with " unloaded" or "I thought it was unloaded" guns.
The muzzle loader you are not going to get around not pointing it at some part of your body at sometime even when it is loaded, but I sure don't point it at anybody at any time.
When it is laying there it is not in your hand so you are not pointing it at anyone, but when I have it laying in a vehicle I make sure it is not pointing at me or someone in the vehicle. Also when it is in you holster, it is at different times going to be pointing at others as you sit or lay or stand, but it is in a holster with the trigger covered and you aren't handling it and pointing it at others.
But I agree with treat all weapons as if they are loaded. It seems most people are shot with " unloaded" or "I thought it was unloaded" guns.
thnycav
Regular Member
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Check this out. It does make a lot of sense.
http://officer.com/posa/video/Short_Tips_on_Various_Subjects/Rules_of_Gun_Safety/14886831001:::::::12/
Check this out. It does make a lot of sense.
http://officer.com/posa/video/Short_Tips_on_Various_Subjects/Rules_of_Gun_Safety/14886831001:::::::12/
imported post
Hillmann wrote:
"Point" in the first context is an active (transitive) verb and the understood subject of the sentence is "You." (You) never point a gun at something you don't intend to shoot.
"Pointing" in the second case is a participle and describes a condition, not an act - as in the gun "is pointing" at the wall. Am, is, was, be etc. are state of being or intransitive verbs - no action.
Bottom line is that to point at something requires an act (effort) - to point a gun is a hands on condition, whether intentional or accidental. It is here that the greatest danger exists.
All guns are pointing at something all of the time - that in and of itself is not dangerous.
Cleaning a gun demands that it be confirmed (repeat) as clear and safe - then should field stripped - slide, bolt or barrel removed.
Black powder (muzzle loaders) guns are not primed/capped before loading them so that muzzle discipline re the loader is not considered violated.
Likely a lot more than you desired.
No rule is perfect or safe from dissection. The Col's rules are as perfect as it gets IMHO. They are logical and easily comprehended.
I can therefore safely say that there should be no exception to "Do not point a gun at something you are not willing to destroy." That includes training.
Yata hey
Hillmann wrote:
With a good knowledge of English grammar rules - Col. Cooper was very well schooled to this regard - it will perhaps be better understood.
"Point" in the first context is an active (transitive) verb and the understood subject of the sentence is "You." (You) never point a gun at something you don't intend to shoot.
"Pointing" in the second case is a participle and describes a condition, not an act - as in the gun "is pointing" at the wall. Am, is, was, be etc. are state of being or intransitive verbs - no action.
Bottom line is that to point at something requires an act (effort) - to point a gun is a hands on condition, whether intentional or accidental. It is here that the greatest danger exists.
All guns are pointing at something all of the time - that in and of itself is not dangerous.
Cleaning a gun demands that it be confirmed (repeat) as clear and safe - then should field stripped - slide, bolt or barrel removed.
Black powder (muzzle loaders) guns are not primed/capped before loading them so that muzzle discipline re the loader is not considered violated.
Likely a lot more than you desired.
No rule is perfect or safe from dissection. The Col's rules are as perfect as it gets IMHO. They are logical and easily comprehended.
I can therefore safely say that there should be no exception to "Do not point a gun at something you are not willing to destroy." That includes training.
Yata hey
Eeyore
Regular Member
imported post
Tess wrote:
Once (and I emphasize the word "once") I used a real pistol to demonstrate some disarming techniques to a friend. He is even more experienced with gun-handling than I,and heagreed to it becauseI had just disassembled/cleaned it, weboth confirmed that the magazine was removed, the chamber was clear, the hammer was down, and the manual safety was on. I think I even engaged the internal lock. Therefore, we were both comfortable that the weapon was well and truly safe.
Anyway, I was the one getting the gun pointed at him. :shock: For the first round, anyway.
Wedid this only because a rubber training gun was not available. Aside from the "every gun is always loaded" rule, I would never advocate doing training with a real gun on a regular basis because (1) you're bound to damage the gun, and (2) a real, metal gun can give both of you some really nasty cuts/bruises in the course of these exercises. Also, (3) having an actual trigger and triggerguard increases the chance of breaking the finger of the simulated attacker if he is foolish enough to put his finger inside the trigger guard.
So there's four reasons for you to use a rubber gun for this kind of thing.
Tess wrote:
True, but every rule has its exception.
Once (and I emphasize the word "once") I used a real pistol to demonstrate some disarming techniques to a friend. He is even more experienced with gun-handling than I,and heagreed to it becauseI had just disassembled/cleaned it, weboth confirmed that the magazine was removed, the chamber was clear, the hammer was down, and the manual safety was on. I think I even engaged the internal lock. Therefore, we were both comfortable that the weapon was well and truly safe.
Anyway, I was the one getting the gun pointed at him. :shock: For the first round, anyway.
Wedid this only because a rubber training gun was not available. Aside from the "every gun is always loaded" rule, I would never advocate doing training with a real gun on a regular basis because (1) you're bound to damage the gun, and (2) a real, metal gun can give both of you some really nasty cuts/bruises in the course of these exercises. Also, (3) having an actual trigger and triggerguard increases the chance of breaking the finger of the simulated attacker if he is foolish enough to put his finger inside the trigger guard.
So there's four reasons for you to use a rubber gun for this kind of thing.
GLOCK21GB
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Blue plastic training guns are the best....
Blue plastic training guns are the best....
eye95
Well-known member
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Grapeshot wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
I just wanted everyone to have one more chance to read this post.