sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
+1 to Brewster and Don for acting civil.
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WAC Show Puyallup 3/24 - 3/25
- Thread starter gogodawgs
- Start date
TechnoWeenie
Regular Member
They're not 'taking away our rights', it's private property. The bill of rights was to protect the people from the government, not the people from other people. Your argument is invalid.
Even so, your rights end where others begin.. As private property, they make the rules. If they want you to do 10 jumping jacks while wearing a pink shirt, you can comply or GTFO.
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SpyderTattoo
Regular Member
The WAC gunshows are not public gunshows. They are technically, private club meetings where the general public is invited in, if they purchase a ticket. The club can allow or disallow anyone in that they want to.
As to "Goods and Ideas", there is much more being sold than just guns.
As to "Goods and Ideas", there is much more being sold than just guns.
waterfowl woody
Regular Member
Very interesting.
If this was a store that is open to public and members, like grocery stores. You approach the front door and they tell you to unload your fire arm and place this zip tie in it. what would you feel? most of you would get on here and complain about it not being right and who do they think they are, time to write to the corperate office would be happening fast. yes they are a private company and can make there own rules, but you would let them know that gun owners of america won't be shopping here!
Later to make things worse you find out this company also takes money to help the fight for your 2A rights????
wait a minute those people told you to unload your gun because it is safer that way.
It may seem small, but isn't everything at first.
If this was a store that is open to public and members, like grocery stores. You approach the front door and they tell you to unload your fire arm and place this zip tie in it. what would you feel? most of you would get on here and complain about it not being right and who do they think they are, time to write to the corperate office would be happening fast. yes they are a private company and can make there own rules, but you would let them know that gun owners of america won't be shopping here!
Later to make things worse you find out this company also takes money to help the fight for your 2A rights????
wait a minute those people told you to unload your gun because it is safer that way.
It may seem small, but isn't everything at first.
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gogodawgs
Campaign Veteran
The poorest part of the argument is that this is not a grocery store or equivalent. It is not even a gun store (remember what I do for a living) it is a massive gun show, with thousands of members of varying degrees of knowledge and safety skills milling about, handling firearms, ammo, accessories. I respect WAC's decision to have the safest environment possible. Is is a perfect world, nope. I also respect WAC's decision to keep themselves out of the media headline's by taking precautions in this world of relentless ad hominem attacks on all gun owners.
Jim675
Founder's Club Member
I'm not sure I follow this part. The gun show attendees are not zombies who are just reanimated once a month for the show. They are our neighbors and the customers in all of our regional businesses everyday. If they travel armed to the show it seems reasonable that they may travel armed to their other destinations as well. Same people, same weapons, same degree of handling skill.
The show may have a higher concentration of such people, but they form the same percentage of the general population out doing their business everyday.
Not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to understand your point of view. You brought up the one very good reason to support the show - educating the 2A-aware about OC. I think that's a fine reason to attend.
In fact, I think this will be my last post in this thread. I know this issue is not new. I just came in because some rather harsh words were thrown about those who don't support WAC and I feel there are perfectly valid and morally consistent reasons for abstaining.
badkarma
Regular Member
Good point. Replace the "WAC" or Washington Arms Collectors" with "Nick's Co-Op and 2nd Amendment Store". Open to the public and has a membership for purchase of some goods. All supported by local farmers. Although it is a private buisness, this entire mofioso would be all over it like white on rice.
gogodawgs
Campaign Veteran
They might just be zombies, you might want to watch a WAC show attendee....
Our neighbors, customers come from all walks of life, but in 99% of the places the firearm is not meant to be touched or handled in any way.
In businesses where it is ok to handle a firearm (like Champion Arms), customers mishandle them every day. I am amazed each and every day what customers do. Yesterday, a customer carrying his 1911 in a shoulder holster, cocked and locked, while talking with another employee and myself... pulled the 1911 out of the holster and waved it around. Mostly at the ceiling, but he swept my employee. In addition, through my ceiling on my second floor is a couple of offices including my gunsmith who was working at the time. Even though I have a 2 huge red stop signs at my entrance's saying all firearms must be in a case or in a holster, this 'former marine' decided that this was ok. It is clearly not! Multiply this time's 5000 all in one place at one time. I personally would not attend a show of this size if loaded firearms were allowed. Another prime example, go shooting with guys at Waddle Creek that meet on similar gun forums. (i.e. WAGuns, Seattle Guns, etc). More horrible and unsafe firearms handling. I simply won't go unless I know all the people that will be there.
Members here on OCDO WA are generally, but not always, of a higher caliber of education regarding firearms. The percentage of the general public that come to my store are of vastly varying degrees of firearms handling. Some are absolutely horrible. I see them daily. But I am able to control every firearm that is in my case. I have a great degree of control over customers handling, but each and every day a customer believes it is ok to draw their firearm from their holster, waistband, pocket to have me look at it or to fit a holster. Unfortunately our neighbors and customers fail!
massivedesign
Regular Member
Hey now. When WaGuns.org has a shoot it's organized. The problem with the Waddell Creek pit is when there is NOT group shoots and jacknuts are running the place. When we show up 20-50 strong, we tend to dominate the range.
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A few comments from a WAC Volunteer
First off, I am not now and until that day when pigs fly and hell freezes over (and I'm elected President of WAC, about equally likely) speaking on behalf of WAC officially or unofficially. Nor am I speaking for any other organization, employer, acquaintance, or anyone else but *me*.
Now that we have that out of the way, I can tell you what I've learned in 15-20 years of intermittent WAC membership.
The Washington Arms Collectors is a non-profit led by its member-elected officers and directors under the laws of the State of Washington. WAC is a private membership organization that puts on between 20 and 24 events (shows) for its members each year, admitting those members of the public willing to pay an admission fee and abide by WAC rules in addition to complying with all legal obligations.
The by-laws of WAC and the WAC "Rules of the Road" that are subordinate to the by-laws may be found at http://washingtonarmscollectors.org/members.htm ... I suggest study of those would contribute significantly to the tenor of this conversation.
Current practice and procedure at WAC Shows (Enumclaw, Monroe, Puyallup) does not allow *any* person not either law enforcement or hired (and authorized) security to carry a loaded firearm at the show. At each show, bullet traps are available at the entrance to allow members to clear their sidearms and have them zip-tied by security. As you may not in the rules of the road, only members may purchase firearms or ammunition at the show, however non-members may purchase most other items if a table operator is willing to sell to them.
My best information is that this approach evolved as a result of several ND's over a period of several years at the Puyallup location after an ultimatum was issued by fair management that a single additional ND would result in immediate and permanent lease termination. As the Fairgrounds are a unique venue, I rather doubt they would have any difficulty replacing WAC as a tenant. I may be mistaken, as I do not have primary sources readily available to me.
WAC, on the other hand, would be unlikely to be able to replace the Fairgrounds (their largest and most successful location) in any sort of realistic time frame. Thus far, the response I've seen is to establish a building fund with the eventual goal of WAC purchasing and operating its' own primary property. I suspect that would be the point in time that the "Loaded Firearms Policy" would logically be reconsidered.
My understanding is that WAC has historically chosen to continue to offer the Gun Community some of the largest (and arguably best) gun shows in the nation rather than adhere to some form of ideological purity, holding that it is better that such a space for pro-gun interaction and networking (and more than a few sales) was more in the best interests of the Gun Community than throwing up its collective hands, taking its toys, and going home.
As to the insurance issue? Not everything is *insurable* at an affordable cost, if at all. WAC (and every gun show operator, open or membership) is in my understanding a high-risk group to begin with. Throwing together several thousand folks with random levels of safety skills in an environment where firearms handling is *expected*...may not be an acceptable level of risk for an insurer.
To address the comparison of a WAC show to a gun store? Have you ever seen a gun store that size? Every gun store I've ever been in, when it came to firearms handling, operated in a closely supervised fashion - typically one gun out, verified empty, being shown to one customer per "employee on deck". Three staff = max of three guns being shown at any one time in other words. The tradeoff for the significantly greater freedom at WAC shows is, in my eyes, a pretty directly proportional focus on preventative safety measures.
WAC has publicly posted (see the website and the gate area at events) their policies. It is not their obligation (nor even possible) to somehow read the minds of all persons wishing to attend their events and then send them a copy of the rules by registered mail. Failure to adhere to those rules can result in ejection, termination of membership, and in truly special cases - arrest and prosecution. That is the right of any event-holding private organization.
Around since at least 1952 (and rumor has it, long before), WAC was not founded as a "gun rights" organization. It was founded as a collectors group, and while vastly changed since those founding days with a single location (the Renton High School gym), many of its traditions and bits of organizational culture come from those days. Today it is a multi-million dollar organization that, by its very structure (I can never remember 501(c)3 or (c)4) is prohibited from direct political participation. It may educate, litigate, and put on events for its members where one or both of these goals are pursued.
Of course, to do that, it must continue to *operate*.
And it is run, in the final analysis, by membership - that elects officers and directors, who in turn appoint committees/hire staff/contract for locations/etc.
Like any organization, WAC is imperfect - but is doing what it can with what it has. My own view is that WAC is undergoing another great leap forward - from operating in a reactive and familial mode appropriate to a smaller organization to a more pro-active approach that takes the longer view. Your mileage may vary. What I can say with certainty is that each of the officers and directors I've interacted with - no matter how much I disagree with them or take exception to their decisions/actions on occasion - are passionately dedicated to the cause of firearms rights in their best understanding of those rights and how best to pursue their restoration.
Tearing down an organization doing its best to serve our community, particularly one that has done quite well at it in the past does not strike me as terribly constructive. At least until you are willing to throw the dollars that will get them a venue they own and can have a completely (well, within the law, at least) free hand in setting their rules.
Now, to review the first paragraph. I have the privilege to volunteer with WAC. My comments don't represent their views, only mine. I have an employer. My comments don't represent their views, either. Again, my views and recollections are purely my own. Finally, I'll assert that I'm human and thus vulnerable to fading memory, simple error, and being misinformed. I'm not getting paid for this bit, so my willingness to provide detailed citations is severely limited (in other words, you can use google/phones/email as well as I can).
GC
First off, I am not now and until that day when pigs fly and hell freezes over (and I'm elected President of WAC, about equally likely) speaking on behalf of WAC officially or unofficially. Nor am I speaking for any other organization, employer, acquaintance, or anyone else but *me*.
Now that we have that out of the way, I can tell you what I've learned in 15-20 years of intermittent WAC membership.
The Washington Arms Collectors is a non-profit led by its member-elected officers and directors under the laws of the State of Washington. WAC is a private membership organization that puts on between 20 and 24 events (shows) for its members each year, admitting those members of the public willing to pay an admission fee and abide by WAC rules in addition to complying with all legal obligations.
The by-laws of WAC and the WAC "Rules of the Road" that are subordinate to the by-laws may be found at http://washingtonarmscollectors.org/members.htm ... I suggest study of those would contribute significantly to the tenor of this conversation.
Current practice and procedure at WAC Shows (Enumclaw, Monroe, Puyallup) does not allow *any* person not either law enforcement or hired (and authorized) security to carry a loaded firearm at the show. At each show, bullet traps are available at the entrance to allow members to clear their sidearms and have them zip-tied by security. As you may not in the rules of the road, only members may purchase firearms or ammunition at the show, however non-members may purchase most other items if a table operator is willing to sell to them.
My best information is that this approach evolved as a result of several ND's over a period of several years at the Puyallup location after an ultimatum was issued by fair management that a single additional ND would result in immediate and permanent lease termination. As the Fairgrounds are a unique venue, I rather doubt they would have any difficulty replacing WAC as a tenant. I may be mistaken, as I do not have primary sources readily available to me.
WAC, on the other hand, would be unlikely to be able to replace the Fairgrounds (their largest and most successful location) in any sort of realistic time frame. Thus far, the response I've seen is to establish a building fund with the eventual goal of WAC purchasing and operating its' own primary property. I suspect that would be the point in time that the "Loaded Firearms Policy" would logically be reconsidered.
My understanding is that WAC has historically chosen to continue to offer the Gun Community some of the largest (and arguably best) gun shows in the nation rather than adhere to some form of ideological purity, holding that it is better that such a space for pro-gun interaction and networking (and more than a few sales) was more in the best interests of the Gun Community than throwing up its collective hands, taking its toys, and going home.
As to the insurance issue? Not everything is *insurable* at an affordable cost, if at all. WAC (and every gun show operator, open or membership) is in my understanding a high-risk group to begin with. Throwing together several thousand folks with random levels of safety skills in an environment where firearms handling is *expected*...may not be an acceptable level of risk for an insurer.
To address the comparison of a WAC show to a gun store? Have you ever seen a gun store that size? Every gun store I've ever been in, when it came to firearms handling, operated in a closely supervised fashion - typically one gun out, verified empty, being shown to one customer per "employee on deck". Three staff = max of three guns being shown at any one time in other words. The tradeoff for the significantly greater freedom at WAC shows is, in my eyes, a pretty directly proportional focus on preventative safety measures.
WAC has publicly posted (see the website and the gate area at events) their policies. It is not their obligation (nor even possible) to somehow read the minds of all persons wishing to attend their events and then send them a copy of the rules by registered mail. Failure to adhere to those rules can result in ejection, termination of membership, and in truly special cases - arrest and prosecution. That is the right of any event-holding private organization.
Around since at least 1952 (and rumor has it, long before), WAC was not founded as a "gun rights" organization. It was founded as a collectors group, and while vastly changed since those founding days with a single location (the Renton High School gym), many of its traditions and bits of organizational culture come from those days. Today it is a multi-million dollar organization that, by its very structure (I can never remember 501(c)3 or (c)4) is prohibited from direct political participation. It may educate, litigate, and put on events for its members where one or both of these goals are pursued.
Of course, to do that, it must continue to *operate*.
And it is run, in the final analysis, by membership - that elects officers and directors, who in turn appoint committees/hire staff/contract for locations/etc.
Like any organization, WAC is imperfect - but is doing what it can with what it has. My own view is that WAC is undergoing another great leap forward - from operating in a reactive and familial mode appropriate to a smaller organization to a more pro-active approach that takes the longer view. Your mileage may vary. What I can say with certainty is that each of the officers and directors I've interacted with - no matter how much I disagree with them or take exception to their decisions/actions on occasion - are passionately dedicated to the cause of firearms rights in their best understanding of those rights and how best to pursue their restoration.
Tearing down an organization doing its best to serve our community, particularly one that has done quite well at it in the past does not strike me as terribly constructive. At least until you are willing to throw the dollars that will get them a venue they own and can have a completely (well, within the law, at least) free hand in setting their rules.
Now, to review the first paragraph. I have the privilege to volunteer with WAC. My comments don't represent their views, only mine. I have an employer. My comments don't represent their views, either. Again, my views and recollections are purely my own. Finally, I'll assert that I'm human and thus vulnerable to fading memory, simple error, and being misinformed. I'm not getting paid for this bit, so my willingness to provide detailed citations is severely limited (in other words, you can use google/phones/email as well as I can).
GC
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
Rules of the Road
1. There will be no loaded firearms, magazines, or speedloaders in the building, either on the tables or on one’s person, with the exception of law enforcement and private security officers under contract with WAC.
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SpyderTattoo
Regular Member
Not quite. Ammunition can be sold to non-members. Only firearms sales are restricted to members only.
waterfowl woody
Regular Member
"The Washington Arms Collectors (WAC) is a membership organization affiliated with the National Rifle Association. WAC puts on one of the largest gun shows in Washington State. Only members can buy and sell guns at our shows. Only members may carry firearms into the venue. WAC director positions are occupied by some of the most powerful people in the gun rights arena. WAC works to preserve your 2nd amendment rights. The WAC is based on the principles set forth by the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution which states that every free citizen has the right to keep and bear arms."
.
.
.
The last line is the worst. Really are your principles based on the 2A. I think thier real principles are based on the money that 2A citizens spend.
WAC if you are really here to preserve our 2A rights then you need to abide by them. Every gun show is a chance for your organization to help and teach the safe handling of firearms. I have heard many members claim they have had issues with people not being safe with firearms inside your shows, but instead of teaching the law and helping people understand safety you ban the carry of firearms.
WAC you are losing in the fight to preserve our rights as you are taking them away. I will never be a member as you take away my rights. If you are a total members only club then do what you may want, but as you allow public and want the public to visit your shows you need to abide by the constitution. please remember your own writings that every free citizen has the right to keep and bear arms.
Unless they are at a WAC event!
.
.
.
The last line is the worst. Really are your principles based on the 2A. I think thier real principles are based on the money that 2A citizens spend.
WAC if you are really here to preserve our 2A rights then you need to abide by them. Every gun show is a chance for your organization to help and teach the safe handling of firearms. I have heard many members claim they have had issues with people not being safe with firearms inside your shows, but instead of teaching the law and helping people understand safety you ban the carry of firearms.
WAC you are losing in the fight to preserve our rights as you are taking them away. I will never be a member as you take away my rights. If you are a total members only club then do what you may want, but as you allow public and want the public to visit your shows you need to abide by the constitution. please remember your own writings that every free citizen has the right to keep and bear arms.
Unless they are at a WAC event!
SpyderTattoo
Regular Member
:banghead:
slapmonkay
Campaign Veteran
Wow I sure missed a conversation. I turn around and this thread goes from 1 to 6 before I knew it. I have nothing to add the conversation other than posting an unawnsered link for LkWd_Don.
Here is a link to thefair.com with items that can not be brought into the facilities.
http://www.thefair.com/puyallup-fair/visitor-info/
I am not saying the facility management is preventing WAC from allowing carry, just showing that the management of the facilities has a standing policy of not allowing weapons in the facility. Another bit of information, the Monroe facility is county owned.
Here is a link to thefair.com with items that can not be brought into the facilities.
http://www.thefair.com/puyallup-fair/visitor-info/
TheFair.com said:
I am not saying the facility management is preventing WAC from allowing carry, just showing that the management of the facilities has a standing policy of not allowing weapons in the facility. Another bit of information, the Monroe facility is county owned.
LkWd_Don
Regular Member
Thank you! That is information I was asking for that had not yet been provided.