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Walmart gearing up against OC's

schwarzi88

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Bravo , couldn't have even thought about saying it any better! I agree 100%, thank you for saying it such a manner that it makes sense!
 

swillden

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AnaxImperator wrote:
taking up an argument with management-types or LEOs on their turf and on their terms, is only going to paint the OC'er as a nuisance at least, or possibly a criminal trespasser if cooler heads don't prevail.
+1

Remember that to most people, and especially to business owners and manager, "activist" has some pretty strong negative connotations. We may effectively be gun rights activists, but we don't want to act in ways that get us associated with the likes of PETA.
 

Mike

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swillden wrote:
AnaxImperator wrote:
taking up an argument with management-types or LEOs on their turf and on their terms, is only going to paint the OC'er as a nuisance at least, or possibly a criminal trespasser if cooler heads don't prevail.
+1

Remember that to most people, and especially to business owners and manager, "activist" has some pretty strong negative connotations. We may effectively be gun rights activists, but we don't want to act in ways that get us associated with the likes of PETA.
Right - better to say "gun rights expert" or "gun rights advocate."
 

utbagpiper

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yeahYeah wrote:
I find this odd as I OC'd in walmart and i saw other OCing also in Pahrump this past weekend.
I am starting to believe that there are those who can OC almost anywhere and never have an issue. There are others who tend to get hassled no matter where they go.

And of course, what raises eyebrows in Pahrump (especially near hunting season, Independence Day, etc) may be very different than what attracts attention in West Valley City in the days following a gang shooting.

While OC provides opportunity for education, my main purpose in carrying is NOT to be a teacher. It is defend my own life. It just so happens that OC (or casually concealed carr) is the most comfortable, convenient way for me to do that in many cases. In other cases, CC is more convenient. In any event, my goal is NOT to draw attention to myself or my gun. I tend not to get hassled or questioned.

So long as I am not violating any laws, I feel free to carry most anywhere UNTIL I am specifically asked NOT to. Should that happen, I would then respect the property owner's wishes and avoid his property in the future (or avoid carrying there if I decided to visit anyway).

Due to these reports, Walmart is now on my list of places to be a little more discrete in what and how I carry. But I don't consider reports on an internet chat room to be legally binding on me and so while I feel for those who now find themselves unwelcome to carry their self-defense into their favorite store, I don't feel so constrained myself until I am asked not to carry. And, of course, I will NOT be asking anyone at Walmart if it is ok for me to carry. I'll just wait until they bring it up.

Just some food for thought.

Charles
 

yeahYeah

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in walmart - i usually CC, but pahrump is a very OC friendly town..

I just realized that this is a UTAH thread...my bad.
 

GeneticsDave

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yeahYeah wrote:
in walmart - i usually CC, but pahrump is a very OC friendly town..

I just realized that this is a UTAH thread...my bad.
That's cool. Pahrump is very close to Front Sight, so I'd imagine they see a lot of students coming through with their sidearms. Also, rural Nevada is a little more firearm tolerant that some places in Salt Lake (we have an ever growing liberal populace here).

Feel free to continue chiming in as you wish, we love to hear out-of-state perspective :D
 

yeahYeah

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GeneticsDave wrote:
yeahYeah wrote:
in walmart - i usually CC, but pahrump is a very OC friendly town..

I just realized that this is a UTAH thread...my bad.
That's cool. Pahrump is very close to Front Sight, so I'd imagine they see a lot of students coming through with their sidearms. Also, rural Nevada is a little more firearm tolerant that some places in Salt Lake (we have an ever growing liberal populace here).

Feel free to continue chiming in as you wish, we love to hear out-of-state perspective :D
SLC - liberal? i never would have thought! Utah is like the reddest of the red...America won't give up on u!

they could be profiling...when i OC, i am usually more dressed up - biz casual - so i am not bothered, but i CC when i am in baggy shorts, t shirt and sneakers unless i am in an area where i know i wont get crap (like Pahrump).

Speaking of frontsight, my buddy gave me a free 2 day course of my choice there, i am stoked big time. and no, i cannot give it away or sell it ;-)
 

eddified

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thx997303 wrote:
I believe that all gun owners need to boycott Wal-mart. This is not the first time that they have taken stances like this, and it seems that they are either lying in that e-mail, or they are lying to others who have been told that their policy is to follow local and state laws.

And to anyone who is going to tell me that a boycott would not be effective, bull.

Look what happened to Blockbuster.
Please tell... what happened to Blockbuster?
 

thx997303

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They put up no gun signs.

When the gun owning community found out, they received about a million cut up blockbuster cards, and letters telling them that people would be taking their business elsewhere until they take down the signs.

They took down the signs.
 

AnaxImperator

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thx997303 wrote:
I believe that all gun owners need to boycott Wal-mart. This is not the first time that they have taken stances like this, and it seems that they are either lying in that e-mail, or they are lying to others who have been told that their policy is to follow local and state laws.

And to anyone who is going to tell me that a boycott would not be effective, bull.

Look what happened to Blockbuster.


It would take a serious effort of will by ahuge percentage of gun-owners toboycott Walmart effectively. And even then, Walmart has such ahuge world-widebase of customers who are not gun-owners,they'd just shrug-off the minor loss of revenue. The corporation has many other sources of profit (Sams Club, Walmart Realty(!));in Japan alone there's Seiyu Supermarkets, LIVIN Department Stores,Seiyu Supercenters,Seiyu GMS (food & apparel),& Seiyu GM (general merchandise), and major store assets in Canada, Mexico, Great Britain, Germany, China,and Brazil.

American Walmart storeslocated in smallrural/semi-rural towns with alarge number of gun-ownerswould be the hardest hit by a gun-owner boycott. And I'd put money on a bet that Walmart would punish theboycottinglocalsby promptly cutting employee hours, vacation/sick days,pay-raises, and whateverothertiny benefits Walmart employees get. In addition, for many of those small towns, Walmart has become the onlyoption for buying food & dry-goods, sinceit had long ago put the mom-n'-pop grocers & general stores out of business.

So like I said, it'd take a serious committment for many gun-owners to stop spending their money at Walmart as it's likely the only place within 30 miles where they can buy steaks, bulk dog-chow, a pair of Dockers, a fuzzy bean-bag for their kid, a 3000pc. Eifel Tower puzzle, and a couple boxes of .30-30 to take care of those marauding wild hogs that've been tearing up the sweet potatoes.

As much as I hate Walmart, and have beenavoiding it by myself for years, it'd take a lot more than my being joined by a few thousandothers to make Walmart change their policies on customers carrying guns in their stores.

The boycott of Blockbustercouldn't have been that much of an inconvenience, what with alternatives like Hollywood Video, movie-rentals at the corner party-store, and most especially Netflix.

But don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly encourage everyone to cease & desist giving their hard-earned dollars to that bloated, corrupt sweatshop.

-------------------------------

And speaking of......there may be one less reason for gun-owners to shop at aWalmart store because of this lady and others like her. What I read is so completely ignorant and insane as to be nearly beyond comprehension. I sincerely wish these people would shut-up, leave the country, orleave with California when it breaks off and goes to hang out with Hawaii.
 

Utah_Patriot

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Just got home from the meet up noticed Wal-Mart Had sent me a email from legal I find very Interesting.



[align=left]Mr.. Wellman:[/align]
[align=left][/align]
[align=left]I apologize for the delay getting back to you. The email you reference is a confidential internal communication protected by the attorney client privilege. Please delete the email and any copies you may have in your possession. While I cannot discuss Wal-Mart's corporate policy, I can tell you that the email you reference only speaks to the current state of the law in Utah and does not in any way purport to detail Wal-Mart's corporate policy with regards to legally permitted carrying of firearms in Wal-Mart stores.[/align]
[align=left][/align]
[align=left]
Mark Johnson Associate General Counsel
Wal-Mart Stores Division Legal
Phone 479.204.9131 Fax 479.204.9575
mark.johnson@walmartlegal.com

Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
702 SW 8th Street
Bentonville, Arkansas 72716-0185
Save money. Live better.

*This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you have received this e-mail in error, please destroy it immediately.

[/align]



[align=left]

From: Zachary Wellman [mailto:zachary.wellman@dps.utah.edu]
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:59 PM
To: Mark Johnson - LEGAL
Subject: Our Conversation

[/align]

Mark Johnson,

I recived your email sent to Don Shultize and would like to make a few comments. I would like to ask you a few questions about Wal-Marts stand on openly carried firearms and concealed firearms. I have a hard time understanding why Wal-Mart is against firearms in your store. You sell them to law abiding citizens in sporting goods. Yet you are prohibiting law abiding citizens the right to defend themselves on your property. I served my country in the United States Army for your rights and my rights. I can not understand the logic that a crimnal has more rights to carry a ilegal firearm into your store but a law abiding citizen who obeys the laws can not. I feel that your decision is not a Ideal that Sam Walton or your coperate offices would ever uphold. Less then a year ago Your VP Rolando Rodriguez had stated that Wal-Mart allowed this action. Why has it changed is Wal-Mart taking a step back on their decision. I want to continue being a customer but your views conflict with my rights as a US Citizen as long with all of my comrades and military friends who sit on the fence waiting for Wal-Mart to make a decision on this delicate issue. I look forward to hearing back from you with a reply from your coperate offices on this issue

Zachary S Wellman
801-455-7227
 

Mike

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gunsfreak4791 wrote:
Just got home from the meet up noticed Wal-Mart Had sent me a email from legal I find very Interesting.




[align=left]Mr.. Wellman:[/align]

[align=left][/align]

[align=left]I apologize for the delay getting back to you. The email you reference is a confidential internal communication protected by the attorney client privilege. Please delete the email and any copies you may have in your possession. While I cannot discuss Wal-Mart's corporate policy, I can tell you that the email you reference only speaks to the current state of the law in Utah and does not in any way purport to detail Wal-Mart's corporate policy with regards to legally permitted carrying of firearms in Wal-Mart stores.[/align]

[align=left][/align]

[align=left]
Mark Johnson Associate General Counsel
Wal-Mart Stores Division Legal
Phone 479.204.9131 Fax 479.204.9575
mark.johnson@walmartlegal.com

Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
702 SW 8th Street
Bentonville, Arkansas 72716-0185
Save money. Live better.

*This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you have received this e-mail in error, please destroy it immediately.

[/align]




[align=left]

From: Zachary Wellman [mailto:zachary.wellman@dps.utah.edu]
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:59 PM
To: Mark Johnson - LEGAL
Subject: Our Conversation

[/align]

Mark Johnson,

I recived your email sent to Don Shultize and would like to make a few comments. I would like to ask you a few questions about Wal-Marts stand on openly carried firearms and concealed firearms. I have a hard time understanding why Wal-Mart is against firearms in your store. You sell them to law abiding citizens in sporting goods. Yet you are prohibiting law abiding citizens the right to defend themselves on your property. I served my country in the United States Army for your rights and my rights. I can not understand the logic that a crimnal has more rights to carry a ilegal firearm into your store but a law abiding citizen who obeys the laws can not. I feel that your decision is not a Ideal that Sam Walton or your coperate offices would ever uphold. Less then a year ago Your VP Rolando Rodriguez had stated that Wal-Mart allowed this action. Why has it changed is Wal-Mart taking a step back on their decision. I want to continue being a customer but your views conflict with my rights as a US Citizen as long with all of my comrades and military friends who sit on the fence waiting for Wal-Mart to make a decision on this delicate issue. I look forward to hearing back from you with a reply from your coperate offices on this issue

Zachary S Wellman
801-455-7227

Very interesting! Once again, WalMart is coy about its policy at corporate level, though it appears to generally be to, in practice, not bar legal customer carry.

Don't destroy that doc you posted!
 

Cykaos

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I am not a Lawyer but it has been proven time and time again that notices in emails that you can't publish them etc have no legal leg to stand on.

You were given the email by the client so attorney client privileges don't come into play. If someone sends you a confidential email then it is their fault the information is leaked and you have no legal restrictions from publishing that information. You didn't sign an NDA. You didn't take an oath to protect their confidential information. They are the ones who made it public and they can not stop you from doing what you will with it.
 

thx997303

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Funny

[align=left]Mr. McDonald:[/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left]Thank you for your email and the information you provided. However, the email you reference is a confidential internal communication protected by the attorney clientand attorney work product privileges. Please delete the email and any copies you may have in your possession. While I cannot discuss Wal-Mart's corporate policy, I can tell you that the email you referencedoes not in any way purport to detailUtah Law regarding open carry or a citizen's right to do so.[/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left][/align] [align=left] Mark Johnson Associate General Counsel
Wal-Mart Stores Division Legal
Phone 479.204.9131 Fax 479.204.9575
mark.johnson@walmartlegal.com
Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
702 SW 8th Street
Bentonville, Arkansas 72716-0185
[/align]
 

swillden

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Cykaos wrote:
You were given the email by the client so attorney client privileges don't come into play. If someone sends you a confidential email then it is their fault the information is leaked and you have no legal restrictions from publishing that information. You didn't sign an NDA. You didn't take an oath to protect their confidential information. They are the ones who made it public and they can not stop you from doing what you will with it.
+1000

YOU didn't agree to keep it confidential, and it was given to you by a person you had every reason to believe had the right to give it to you.

They can't take it back, no matter how much they may want to.

Note that IANAL.
 

eddified

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Cykaos wrote:
I am not a Lawyer but it has been proven time and time again that notices in emails that you can't publish them etc have no legal leg to stand on.

You were given the email by the client so attorney client privileges don't come into play. If someone sends you a confidential email then it is their fault the information is leaked and you have no legal restrictions from publishing that information. You didn't sign an NDA. You didn't take an oath to protect their confidential information. They are the ones who made it public and they can not stop you from doing what you will with it.
Actually, the email text is copyrighted, because everything anyone writes is AUTOMATICALLY copyrighted the second it is written.

So, they could issue a DMCA takedown notice and the opencarry.org admins would have to remove the email from the site. I read a story about a lawyer who sent a DMCA takedown notice to a site that had "infringing content" on it. The site decided to post the DMCA takedown notice on the site. Then, said laywer threatened legal action (based on the DMCA) against the user and made them remove the letter. So basically the lawyer issued a takedown notice over a takedown notice. If i recall correctly, it held up in court too.
 

eddified

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note that this applies to Copyrighted text. So if you post the exact text from the internal email, that's supposedly a copyright violation. However, if you SUMMARIZE the email, they've got nothing on you.
 

Cykaos

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Do you have a link? Because I have seen DMCA takedown notices posted on sites many times and you have every right to post it. I have never heard of someone losing a court case because they did post an email or a DMCA notice.

Of course they are going to send more DMCA notices. They send them all the time to scare people to takedown things. 90% of the time you can just ignore them because just because they send one doesn't mean they have a leg to stand on and they know it.

It is like cops asking to search your car, they can ask but it doesn't mean you have to let them. More often then not though people will let them because they aren't aware of their rights or they don't want the hassel.

I will look up some cases and law to prove it but you can post any email you receive no matter what and you can also post DMCA notices. They may try to scare you or take you to court but you will win.
 
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