Walmart refused ammo sale.

[M-Taliesin]

Indeed. This is a very important point to remember and perhaps the only thing I would have done differently in this situation. If someone demands that I remove my firearm from their premises, I will immediately take it outside and secure it in my car before returning to the property and demanding an explanation for my disarming. At that point, I can safely debate with any store personnel without the fear of them calling the cops and saying something to the effect of "There's an argumentative, armed individual in my store who will not vacate the premises."

Howdy Amigo!
That is a good plan of action but I disagree with leaving just because some flunky asked me to remove my weapon. I'd insist on speaking to the manager first. If s/he told me to remove my weapon, I'd comply then come back to debate the issue. But I won't be told what to do by any peon who happens to be working their personal bias while drawing a paycheck. Don't believe they have the authority to make such demand and I'd wait for a manager to back their play.... or mine. The worst that happens to me is the manager stands by his employee and I leave based on their authority. Worst that happens to the peon is a good dressing down for customer abuse, or maybe finding a new place of employment.

That's my particular opinion, and I don't think it is inappropriate to ask for manager intervention before accepting what a minimal wage employee might say on the matter in contravention of corporate policy.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

 

[Polynikes]

Howdy Amigo!
That is a good plan of action but I disagree with leaving just because some flunky asked me to remove my weapon. I'd insist on speaking to the manager first. If s/he told me to remove my weapon, I'd comply then come back to debate the issue. But I won't be told what to do by any peon who happens to be working their personal bias while drawing a paycheck. Don't believe they have the authority to make such demand and I'd wait for a manager to back their play.... or mine. The worst that happens to me is the manager stands by his employee and I leave based on their authority. Worst that happens to the peon is a good dressing down for customer abuse, or maybe finding a new place of employment.

That's my particular opinion, and I don't think it is inappropriate to ask for manager intervention before accepting what a minimal wage employee might say on the matter in contravention of corporate policy.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

I think each one of us has to decide for themselves how to act in such a situation. Unfortunately, the law is silent on how high of position a store employee must hold within the company in order to have the authority to ask you to leave their premises. A person may not carry where a private property owner, private tenant, private employer or private business entity prohibits weapons.* Look at it this way; when discussing customer service earlier in the thread, you said that you expected good service because that employee is a representative of the company as a whole. I believe this is true and to keep this standard consistent we must assume that, for better or worse, the employee, for that moment in time, is acting as the company. When one of us is asked to leave a store, we never say “Asked to leave by Joe-employee” when describing our experience. We always name the company; “Asked to leave Wal-Mart.” I would certainly be outraged and, rest assured, the discussion I would have with them upon returning to the store unarmed would not necessarily be a pleasant one. However, the last thing I want is for that employee to go get their manager and notify them that there's an armed individual in the store who is refusing to leave the store and then have the manager just contact the police before even coming to speak to me.

If the employee is in the wrong and the manager proceeds to "re-educate" them, then no harm done, I'll return to the store as a paying customer with my firearm. If the manager backs the employee, I'm already out the door. I'm not spending any more time or money there. While I certainly don't like being disarmed, I'm willing to do it on the brief occasion that I can educate someone on the dangers of disarming law-abiding citizens. Besides, even if the worst case scenario happens and a bad guy begins shooting up the store while I'm standing there with an empty holster, what better point to reinforce my argument than to look at the manager and say "Bet you wish I was still armed," before ske-daddling for the nearest unblocked exit. :lol:

* C.R.S 18-12-214

 

[Cesar A]

serve him...

Write a complaint letter include his name and everythign he said and did, then get him fired

 

[GvdM]

Joe is back

Well, looks like Joe was not fired. after no problems the last few weeks in buying ammo at the 8th st Walmart I ran into Joe in sporting goods with a repeat performance. Joe called for a manager (Jeremy) who did sell me the ammo but kept repeating that Joe was "Only doing his job".

Called Walmart corporate, will see what happens this time.

This happened at 14:05 today.

 

[thebigsd]

Well, looks like Joe was not fired. after no problems the last few weeks in buying ammo at the 8th st Walmart I ran into Joe in sporting goods with a repeat performance. Joe called for a manager (Jeremy) who did sell me the ammo but kept repeating that Joe was "Only doing his job".

Called Walmart corporate, will see what happens this time.

This happened at 14:05 today.

A repeat performance, are you kidding me??? I used to be an Operations Manager for Walmart. PM me and I can help you with the process for escalating your complaint for maximum results. Best of luck!!

 

[zoom6zoom]

Careful with that. Refusing to leave when told will land you a ticket for trespass.

I would question whether some part time stock boy has the authority to tell you to leave. The owner or management, sure.

 

[mahkagari]

Uh, no. Joe was only doing what he "thought" was his job, in which he is woefully incorrect about. Sounds like the manager is as well, and both need to be reedumacated.

 

[thebigsd]

I would question whether some part time stock boy has the authority to tell you to leave. The owner or management, sure.

Having worked at Walmart for five years I can tell you that the trespassing policy is very strict. Customers can only be asked to leave if they were violent and/or caught stealing multiple times. Even that requires the approval of the highest level of mamagement on duty. The policy is not a guideline at Walmart, it is the "law." I was an manager for five years and never had to ask anyone to leave except for those reasons. If someone in management tells you to leave, outside of the above policy, they are in serious violation of company policy.

 

[wrightme]

Careful with that. Refusing to leave when told will land you a ticket for trespass.

Correct. But, he wasn't "asked" or "told" to leave.

Indeed. This is a very important point to remember and perhaps the only thing I would have done differently in this situation. If someone demands that I remove my firearm from their premises, I will immediately take it outside and secure it in my car before returning to the property and demanding an explanation for my disarming. At that point, I can safely debate with any store personnel without the fear of them calling the cops and saying something to the effect of "There's an argumentative, armed individual in my store who will not vacate the premises."

While that is a safe method, it only removes the firearm from the equation.

I would question whether some part time stock boy has the authority to tell you to leave. The owner or management, sure.

I highly doubt if a stock person has that authority. It might hinge upon the wording of state law. IIRC, "property owner, or agent of" is typical wording of trespass laws.

Having worked at Walmart for five years I can tell you that the trespassing policy is very strict. Customers can only be asked to leave if they were violent and/or caught stealing multiple times. Even that requires the approval of the highest level of mamagement on duty. The policy is not a guideline at Walmart, it is the "law." I was an manager for five years and never had to ask anyone to leave except for those reasons. If someone in management tells you to leave, outside of the above policy, they are in serious violation of company policy.

That sounds as if getting trespassed from a Walmart for simply having a holstered firearm should be very rare.

 

[DWCook]

I myself have only had 3 bad encounters at a Walmart. All of them were of the same issue, the employee was being nervous just because I was carrying. But currently I have picked to only shop at a certain Walmart in my state as they are not bothered with me open carrying at there store. Also never have issues with employees or customers being paranoid about me carrying openly inside the store., even local LEO's are not bothered by this.

 

[since9]

I would question whether some part time stock boy has the authority to tell you to leave. The owner or management, sure.

I wouldn't. Any employee of a store is legally representing that store to its customers. As such, if they say "please leave" then at that time, they carry the legal authority of the store as a whole. There are limits, mainly only so long as they're not overruled. If they say one thing and a manager says another, the manager's representation supersedes that of the employees. Similarly, a written corporate policy will override a manager's actions, at least on paper, but also in court. It's up to the manager to know and follow corporate policy. If they don't, they open the corporation up to various levels of liability.

 

[wrightme]

I wouldn't. Any employee of a store is legally representing that store to its customers. As such, if they say "please leave" then at that time, they carry the legal authority of the store as a whole. There are limits, mainly only so long as they're not overruled. If they say one thing and a manager says another, the manager's representation supersedes that of the employees. Similarly, a written corporate policy will override a manager's actions, at least on paper, but also in court. It's up to the manager to know and follow corporate policy. If they don't, they open the corporation up to various levels of liability.

Cite?


"Please leave" is not akin to "notice of trespass."

 

[mahkagari]

Cite?


"Please leave" is not akin to "notice of trespass."

In a corporate megamart situation like that, I'm much less concerned about legal authority. If a stock boy wants me to leave so badly (for any reason), he can call a manager. If things are going to go "legal" then yes, I'll have refused a lawful notice of tresspass. But there's a few steps between "I'm not going to sell you anything while you're wearing that" and him dialing 9-1-. The checker refusing to take my return or honor my request for a manager can give me "notice of tresspass" and it might fly with the cops if he's working alone. But very few even medium sized businesses would consider that acceptable customer service.

 

[wrightme]

In a corporate megamart situation like that, I'm much less concerned about legal authority. If a stock boy wants me to leave so badly (for any reason), he can call a manager. If things are going to go "legal" then yes, I'll have refused a lawful notice of tresspass. But there's a few steps between "I'm not going to sell you anything while you're wearing that" and him dialing 9-1-. The checker refusing to take my return or honor my request for a manager can give me "notice of tresspass" and it might fly with the cops if he's working alone. But very few even medium sized businesses would consider that acceptable customer service.

I cannot tell if you believe a stock person can or cannot give lawful notice of trespass.

 

[Polynikes]

I cannot tell if you believe a stock person can or cannot give lawful notice of trespass.

As I stated on the previous page (post #43, I believe) unfortunately, Colorado Statutes do not specify what position an employee must hold within the company before they have authority to expel you from the premises. One of the phrases specifically used is "business entity." I'm fairly certain that every employee, down to the person mopping the floors is part of that "entity" conducting their business.

Furthermore, I also presented a quick hypothetical scenario outlining how management could possibly call the police on you without even speaking to you first. When the police arrive, are you going to argue the finer points about specifically which company employee asked you to vacate the premises and exactly what terminology they used?

 

[wrightme]

As I stated on the previous page (post #43, I believe) unfortunately, Colorado Statutes do not specify what position an employee must hold within the company before they have authority to expel you from the premises. One of the phrases specifically used is "business entity." I'm fairly certain that every employee, down to the person mopping the floors is part of that "entity" conducting their business.

Furthermore, I also presented a quick hypothetical scenario outlining how management could possibly call the police on you without even speaking to you first. When the police arrive, are you going to argue the finer points about specifically which company employee asked you to vacate the premises and exactly what terminology they used?

So, what part was some scenario where they can call police on you without even speaking to you first? Specifically, can a business trespass you without notifying you? And, if they DO call law enforcement, can LE act as part of the "business entity" and trespass you?

What would LE be enforcing if the business calls them?

 

[wrightme]

I think each one of us has to decide for themselves how to act in such a situation. Unfortunately, the law is silent on how high of position a store employee must hold within the company in order to have the authority to ask you to leave their premises. A person may not carry where a private property owner, private tenant, private employer or private business entity prohibits weapons.* Look at it this way; when discussing customer service earlier in the thread, you said that you expected good service because that employee is a representative of the company as a whole. I believe this is true and to keep this standard consistent we must assume that, for better or worse, the employee, for that moment in time, is acting as the company. When one of us is asked to leave a store, we never say “Asked to leave by Joe-employee” when describing our experience. We always name the company; “Asked to leave Wal-Mart.” I would certainly be outraged and, rest assured, the discussion I would have with them upon returning to the store unarmed would not necessarily be a pleasant one. However, the last thing I want is for that employee to go get their manager and notify them that there's an armed individual in the store who is refusing to leave the store and then have the manager just contact the police before even coming to speak to me.

If the employee is in the wrong and the manager proceeds to "re-educate" them, then no harm done, I'll return to the store as a paying customer with my firearm. If the manager backs the employee, I'm already out the door. I'm not spending any more time or money there. While I certainly don't like being disarmed, I'm willing to do it on the brief occasion that I can educate someone on the dangers of disarming law-abiding citizens. Besides, even if the worst case scenario happens and a bad guy begins shooting up the store while I'm standing there with an empty holster, what better point to reinforce my argument than to look at the manager and say "Bet you wish I was still armed," before ske-daddling for the nearest unblocked exit. :lol:

* C.R.S 18-12-214

??

Checking the statute, I haven't seen that section. And, that statute speaks of concealed permits.

(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. A permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. A local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2.
(b) A peace officer may temporarily disarm a permittee, incident to a lawful stop of the permittee. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the permittee prior to discharging the permittee from the scene.
(2) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
(3) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school; except that:
(a) A permittee may have a handgun on the real property of the public school so long as the handgun remains in his or her vehicle and, if the permittee is not in the vehicle, the handgun is in a compartment within the vehicle and the vehicle is locked;
(b) A permittee who is employed or retained by contract by a school district as a school security officer may carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvement erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school while the permittee is on duty;
(c) A permittee may carry a concealed handgun on undeveloped real property owned by a school district that is used for hunting or other shooting sports.
(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:
(a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;
(b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and
(c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.
(5) Nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.
(6) The provisions of this section apply to temporary emergency permits issued pursuant to section 18-12-209.

 

[mahkagari]

I cannot tell if you believe a stock person can or cannot give lawful notice of trespass.

Can. Let's subtract the gun out of the equation and use the refusal to get a manager for a return. The cashier/stock person, etc. certainly can give me lawful notice of trespass. But when does it become an issue? If go find a manager myself, is the cashier going to call the police to say that I refused his "lawful notice"? If the police arrive and I'm discussing the return are they going to arrest me if the manager is giving me the service the cashier refused to? If the cashier calls the police and before he's finished dialling I say, "I'm leaving but I'll be back to speak to the manager," are the cops going to have a stakeout waiting for me to violate the lawful notice of trespass? If I walk in and the manager is there, is the cashier going to tackle me and say, "Call the cops, I gave him lawful notice of trespass!!"?

I can tell you not to step on my property. If you be a dork and put your tennis shoe on my kentucky blue before walking away laughing, are the police going to hunt you down for trespassing? In all the situations, yeah, the "trespasser" is technically breaking the law. Black and white, by the book, yes, the law's done been brokeded. But there's a pretty big area in real life application between a manager apologizing for their employee being a jerk to you and being cited, fined, and fit for a new pair of bracelets.

Hell, I had something tangential happen a couple of weeks ago. I bought a video from a store in Denver from their bargain bin. Took it home and it didn't work. A couple of weeks later I was back in town and went to exchange it. The same guy was working but was pleading the "no refunds/exchanges" policy. I actually used to work at the store once upon a time and knew the owners to be ****s to their employees and particularly to those getting them bothered with complaints. I picked another movie from the bin and asked if they were inventoried by title or misc. He said misc. When he said there was no way for him to run the exchange on the computer, I asked him what that mattered if it didn't need to be run for "identical" inventory. Was I asking him to break a policy or law? Maybe. I pointed out the open boxes and that many of those were probably broken as well and suggested I help him "find" this particular broken one. Was that against policy? Not really. Dishonest? Maybe. Immoral? No. Illegal? Certainly not since it's against the law to sell something that can't be used for what it's being sold for. It was actually illegal for the store not to grant me a return/exchange. He tried calling his manager but they didn't answer and he told me I'd have to come back. I told him I wasn't driving back for a $3 movie. I considered offering to put the second movie back for him and accidentally mixing it up with the broken one. Would that have been illegal? Probably. If I had handed him the broken one and blatantly walked out with the second one, what would they do? They had my credit card receipt from the original purchase. They could track me down. Well, if they wanted to go through 2 weeks of receipts. My finger prints were all over the broken disk. I'm sure they could have called CBI and done a 30 mile wide interagency dragnet for the $3 Trespass Shoplifter.

In the end I threw the broken one on the counter and told him I'd call during the day. Never did. The guy wasn't actually being a jerk, it was the basement pit store's fault. For $3 it wasn't worth my time. But how many ways could that have gone and "technically" broken laws and store policies without either of us being arrested or fired? I suppose I could have dialed 911 because they weren't honoring the CO warranty of usability. Actually had losers do stuff like that when I worked there.

 

[wrightme]

Can. Let's subtract the gun out of the equation and use the refusal to get a manager for a return. The cashier/stock person, etc. certainly can give me lawful notice of trespass.

Why? What is the statute? So far, I have not found the specific one.
Here is the link to the statutes: http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=

 

[mahkagari]

Why? What is the statute? So far, I have not found the specific one.

Oh, hell, I don't know. I just figure if a store can be sued for the actions of an employee, barring a superior specifically preventing them, they're authorized to act as an agent. Wasn't that a scene in Fast Times when Brad(?) was changing out of his pirate outfit into street clothes?