• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

What Cal does everyone carry and why?

Hammer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Skagit Valley, Washington
imported post

10 MM
A Glock 20 recently, but a Colt Delta Elite for a long time. Days in the service and armory made the Colt the only choice long ago.
I am just warming to the Glock trigger. Now that I am getting used to it, it isn't bad.
And 15+1 is tough to argue with.
Some 175-185 PF loads for practice, and some full house HPs for defense.
A Beretta Bobcat 21A as a back-up.
The FBI report said it, and a LEO friend has too- there have probably been more people killed with a .22 than any other caliber.... :shock:
 

okkid

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
172
Location
Hoquiam, , USA
imported post

S&W Sigma 9 and M&P 40

I love both but the 9 is the one I carry most of the time because
its lightweight
 

Bear 45/70

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
3,256
Location
Union, Washington, USA
imported post

David.Car wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
Reloading equals more rounds per dollar. But all the practice in the world won't change being undergunned.
If you think a 9mm with modern day SD ammo is being undergunned, well... Thats your illogical opinion.

Then explain to me why the US Military is starting to go away from the 9mm already? The problem with you theory is that the wonder 9 bullet must expand to work and they don't expand way to often. Besides you seem to be for getting that no matter how much a 9 expands, a 40 or 45 bullets (those same wonder bullets for that matter that say make the 9 so effective) always start out bigger than the 9 and will end up bigger than the 9 in the same situation.

Are you aware the the 9mm Luger round is older than the 45 ACP? The reason the US Military choose the 45 ACP for their new ammo for the new auto pistol was that the 38 Special and been proven to be totally ineffective against drugged up Moro tribesmen in the Philippines during and after the Spanish American War. The Army reinstated the 45 Long Colt and those stopped the tribesmen. So the 45 ACP was designed to replicate the 45 LC load they were using. Stopping power without SD bullets is important because SD bullets don't always work. The 9 is a European caliber and if you check the Europeans think a 380 is an adequate round for stopping bad guys. This of course is patently wrong and the reason the US Military went with the 9 this last time around was to placate the Europeans (we made them accept the 308 and then abandon it in favor of the inferior 223) and the other BS excuses were so everyone could handle a pistol. Which is BS as my 5'5" wife shoots 45s on a regular basis, accurately. She even has several of the mini 1911s and shoots those fine too. The military isn't teaching the people the proper way to shoot a pistol. Most police departments have also go away from the 9mm, Why?

Remember a wonder 9 sometimes expands to .40" or even .45" but a 40 and 45 will never get smaller than .40" and .45". Don't bet you life on a system that might work. Bet on the system that works even if the magic doesn't work.
 

G20-IWB24/7

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
886
Location
Tacoma, WA, ,
imported post

My "always" gun is a Kahr P9 Covert, that is a CCW piece, by necessity, due to my work. When I get to carry what I want, I have a Kahr K9 (9mm), a GLOCK 23 (.40 Short and Weak) and a Kimber Stainless TLE (.45ACP) that I rotate, depending on what I feel like that day. There is no such thing as "major stopping power" when it comes to handguns. A 12-guage loaded with anything from #4 to 000-buck has stopping power.

If you really think about it, poking small holes with mini-missiles in your attacker to make him stop immediately, is a wishful theory at-best. I'm not down-playing the role of the handgun in defense, but I am always mindful of it's limitations while I choose to rely on the idea of having to deployit in defense of me and mine.

As was said earlier, defensive handgun shooting is kinda like real estate. The only thing that matters is LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. I have seen first hand, the results ofmany real-lifeshootings with calibers ranging from .22LR all the way up to 12 guage loaded w/3" magnum #6 steel shot. I'm a mortician by trade, and here's what I've learned:

Buy something in the 9mm/.38spl range OR LARGER, if you are comfortable with something larger, and practice, practice, practice. I know of one case where a single 115gr. 9mm FMJ killed a fairly large man instantly. Shot placement was key in this one. I have also seen a .22LR cause more damage than it had the right to when it snuck it's way into the nasal cavity of the victim.

There are only three ways to stop an attack with a firearm, once the shooting has begun.

1) Putting lead & copper into the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord) of an attacker is the only way to guarantee a "stop." The bullet's dimensions don't matter if you score a CNS hit. (Likepeople who die from .22's that found their mark.) This type of wound destroys the body's wiring, preventing the message of homicidal activityto make it to the hands/feet/etc...by means of paralyzation. If the hit occurs in the spinal cord, the attacker will sometimes survive. A"boiler room" shotis almost always fatal. Caliber and style of bullet doesn't matter in a CNS shot, however the brain is well-protected behind the cranium, and these type of shots are difficult, at best, to obtain in the stress of a real-life firefight.

2) Another way that a bullet stops an attackis to make the attacker "black out" due tomajor blood loss. Death usually occurs soon-thereafter, if professional medical aid is notadministered immediately (transfusions, etc.). Caliber can play a role in this, considering you are more likely to cause major blood loss the larger a hole you can put through someone. This is why the .45ACP has worked so well in history. (Bigger holes leak faster.) This is also why there is a recent advent of modern high-performance jacketed hollow point (JHP)ammunition for defensive use. Expansion is to enhance the bullet's ability to hit a major vein or artery,causing major bleeding to occur, and crushing thegreatest amount of soft tissue in the process. This is the type of shooting that most gunfights "end" with. A service caliber weapon, (9mm/.38 or larger) loaded with modern, expanding bullets is the best bet, if you are to "play the statistics." Smaller calibers might work, but service calibers "might work" more often.

3) The other option is to stop the attack with what I like to call a "structural" shot. It's kinda hard to fire a gun in your right hand when both the radius and the ulna in your right arm have been shattered by a bullet. To destroy a major portion of the skeletal system has been an advantage in plenty of gunfights. Imagine a 12 guage slug going through your hip bone just above the socket where your right leg connects to it. You wouldn't feel much like walking, huh? You're not a bi-ped anymore. Larger, non-expanding bullets do this the best. .45 ACP loaded with Col. Jeff Cooper's preferred FMJ-TC (truncated cone [flat point]) ammo is a good option for this type of disabling. You can't count on using this method and choosing a caliber around it, as only the larger calibers have much of a chance of doing this.

4) I know I said there's only three ways, but I guess the fourth would be that the pain, and shock of being in the firefight and actually being hit with a bullet (even in a non-CNS, non-vital, non-disabling area) would be enough for a bad-guy to "give up."

Abraham Lincoln once said, "The better prepared I am, the more luck I seem to have." This rings true in many things in life. Putting accurate shots--yes, plural (of whatever caliber and flavor you choose), is the most important thing in a pistol fight. Which means you need a pistol that is first, reliable, and second, accurate in your hands. Everything else, as they say,is gravy.

Wow, that was long.
 

jarhead1911A

New member
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
539
Location
, ,
imported post

OK so i started this threat carrying a 45 now i carry a 45 and a 357, If puyallup PD loved me before i cant wait to see how much they are going to love me now! ha ha ha
 

David.Car

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
1,264
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote: Doesn't matter what caliber it is if you put it where it counts, and I have 19 rounds that I can fire accurately and very quickly. I definitly don't feel undergunned.
 

Bear 45/70

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
3,256
Location
Union, Washington, USA
imported post

David.Car wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote: Doesn't matter what caliber it is if you put it where it counts, and I have 19 rounds that I can fire accurately and very quickly. I definitly don't feel undergunned.
Read this nd tell me how many are gonna put the rounds where they are suppose too. 3 cops 107 rounds total and 17 hits. and these guys are supposedly trained to deal with this situation. Me thinks you need to rethink you 9mm position.
 

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:
David.Car wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote: Doesn't matter what caliber it is if you put it where it counts, and I have 19 rounds that I can fire accurately and very quickly. I definitly don't feel undergunned.
Read this nd tell me how many are gonna put the rounds where they are suppose too.  3 cops 107 rounds total and 17 hits.  and these guys are supposedly trained to deal with this situation.  Me thinks you need to rethink you 9mm position.

Which further supports my argument... 1 9mm hit is a lot better than 0 .45 hits....
 

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:
David.Car wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote: Doesn't matter what caliber it is if you put it where it counts, and I have 19 rounds that I can fire accurately and very quickly. I definitly don't feel undergunned.
Read this nd tell me how many are gonna put the rounds where they are suppose too.  3 cops 107 rounds total and 17 hits.  and these guys are supposedly trained to deal with this situation.  Me thinks you need to rethink you 9mm position.

Which further supports my argument... 1 9mm hit is a lot better than 0 .45 hits....
 

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:
David.Car wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote: Doesn't matter what caliber it is if you put it where it counts, and I have 19 rounds that I can fire accurately and very quickly. I definitly don't feel undergunned.
Read this nd tell me how many are gonna put the rounds where they are suppose too.  3 cops 107 rounds total and 17 hits.  and these guys are supposedly trained to deal with this situation.  Me thinks you need to rethink you 9mm position.

Which further supports my argument... 1 9mm hit is a lot better than 0 .45 hits....
 

Bear 45/70

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
3,256
Location
Union, Washington, USA
imported post

TechnoWeenie wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
David.Car wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote: Doesn't matter what caliber it is if you put it where it counts, and I have 19 rounds that I can fire accurately and very quickly. I definitly don't feel undergunned.
Read this nd tell me how many are gonna put the rounds where they are suppose too. 3 cops 107 rounds total and 17 hits. and these guys are supposedly trained to deal with this situation. Me thinks you need to rethink you 9mm position.

Which further supports my argument... 1 9mm hit is a lot better than 0 .45 hits....
wtf.gif
Please explain how a wonder 9 is gonna score more hits than a 40 or 45? Your logic escapes me.
 

Bear 45/70

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
3,256
Location
Union, Washington, USA
imported post

joeroket wrote:
Bear I think what he is saying is that you will have a better percent chance of at least one hit if you have 17 9mm vs 8 .45or 10 .40.
I don't buy the more rounds ups your chance of a hit theory. Two things wrong with it. First while you are firing all those rounds, so is the bad guy, upping the chance he will hit you. This also says to me that in a gun fight you are letting chance decide who lives and dies and putting my life up and letting chance decide does not appeal to me at all. If you are doing this right, the bg should be down at the end of the first 4 rounds, actually the real "shooters and looters" expect 2 rounds to put the bg down.
 

joeroket

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,339
Location
Everett, Washington, USA
imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:
joeroket wrote:
Bear I think what he is saying is that you will have a better percent chance of at least one hit if you have 17 9mm vs 8 .45or 10 .40.
I don't buy the more rounds ups your chance of a hit theory. Two things wrong with it. First while you are firing all those rounds, so is the bad guy, upping the chance he will hit you. This also says to me that in a gun fight you are letting chance decide who lives and dies and putting my life up and letting chance decide does not appeal to me at all. If you are doing this right, the bg should be down at the end of the first 4 rounds, actually the real "shooters and looters" expect 2 rounds to put the bg down.
I agree 100% with you Bear. There is nothing better than practice and accuracy when you are forced into a gunfight. Statistically speaking though the more rounds fired the higher the chance one might find its target.
 

G20-IWB24/7

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
886
Location
Tacoma, WA, ,
imported post

Not "in theory," but in "real life experience," I've found that the lesser amount of uncomfortable recoil a cartridge has, the more likely the person is to learn and practice with that cartridge until they reach proficiency. This is why most instructors I know start out people w/.22LR. Add caliber once you can shoot well.

I know that I can put 5 rounds of 9mm accurately on the target, faster than I can put 5 rounds of 10mm accurately on to the same target, and I can do it faster yet with a .22LR. Accurate and immediatefollow-up shots are important, and it is easier with a smaller caliber such as a 9mm. Does that mean that onewould be unable tomake quick, and accurate follow up shots w/a larger caliber? NO. It just means that it takes more practice to do so. Who cares how many rounds your gun holds. I'm in an awkward situation in that my 9mm carry guns hold fewer rounds (6+1 and 7+1) than my .40's (13+1)and .45's (8+1)do.

Its about putting multiple, accurate hits on the bad guy. THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.
 

Bear 45/70

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
3,256
Location
Union, Washington, USA
imported post

joeroket wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
joeroket wrote:
Bear I think what he is saying is that you will have a better percent chance of at least one hit if you have 17 9mm vs 8 .45or 10 .40.
I don't buy the more rounds ups your chance of a hit theory. Two things wrong with it. First while you are firing all those rounds, so is the bad guy, upping the chance he will hit you. This also says to me that in a gun fight you are letting chance decide who lives and dies and putting my life up and letting chance decide does not appeal to me at all. If you are doing this right, the bg should be down at the end of the first 4 rounds, actually the real "shooters and looters" expect 2 rounds to put the bg down.
I agree 100% with you Bear. There is nothing better than practice and accuracy when you are forced into a gunfight. Statistically speaking though the more rounds fired the higher the chance one might find its target.
When I asked my CQC instructor why he felt at least 500 rounds practice a week for the first year was necessary, his response was: "It's simple, you are teaching your body what to do, even if you are freaked out of your mind, your body will do what it has trained to do. You will do under stress what you practiced." I do have to admit that after many years of this practice it never takes 1 round to be back on target even after several weeks of not shooting and fifty rounds a week suffices now to stay on top of my game.
 

neddis

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
146
Location
Hermiston, Oregon, USA
imported post

I carry a service XD 9mm. Why? I don't make a lot of money and it's cheap to practice with. Because I can afford to put hundreds of rounds through it, I can now shoot pretty well. For daily carry I load it with 16 Hydra Shoks. If I had bought a .45 I would not have been able to afford to shoot it as often and then be screwed if I ever needed to use it. Now, that being said, I am looking for money to fund a compact 1911 in .45 for daily carry and use the XD for plinking. :) We'll see if I can convince my wife that I need two handguns...
 
Top