When trial courts go stupid on self defense law (aka, know the law)

[georg jetson]

What mechanism is available to the citizenry to be sure that judges do not make this mistake in the future? There are only two answers. All other conditions are post getting screwed, then only one answer remains. The cited court case apparently worked out for the wronged citizen if I read the article correctly and the question answered was not even asked.

What two answers do you speak of?

 

[Law of Self Defense]

What two answers do you speak of?

*popcorn* :lol:

 

[georg jetson]

Perhaps. But they're not. And there's more like that everywhere.

Just as we arm ourselves to defend against physical wrongs, we need to arm ourselves to defend against legal wrongs.

Know the law.

Andrew

This is a very important message. I find many citizens sorely ignorant of some of the basic workings of our legal system. Most have no idea of criminal procedure in their state or even how to find the information. If you are charged with a crime, you should be your attorney's greatest resource. It's your a$$ on the line and your attorney... well it's just another day at the office.

It appears in this case, if the defendant had taken any interest in his own case, he may have brought this to the attention of his advocate. There are many times during a case where a judge makes rulings on various motions prior to making his final ruling. Those ruling can be appealed via interlocutory appeal. Depending on the procedure rules of KY, the judges instructions may have been challenged and overturned prior to the verdict.

It can't be said enough... every citizen should have a working knowledge of the law. If one becomes a defendant there isn't enough time to get caught up, there's only enough time to learn the laws relevant to one's case.

First and foremost... don't be a defendant!
Second... if you're a defendant don't be an ignorant one.

Since the first is not guaranteed then we MUST be as ready as possible. It is our own responsibility to make sure the system works at the individual level.

Great thread OP!!

 

[Law of Self Defense]

Great thread OP!!

Thanks, george jetson.

Say . . . you're not THAT george jetson . . . are you? You know, "Jane! Stop this crazy thing!"

:lol:

 

[georg jetson]

Thanks, george jetson.

Say . . . you're not THAT george jetson . . . are you? You know, "Jane! Stop this crazy thing!"

:lol:

No... but I can get you a really good deal on sprockets...


BTW - I wouldn't be so quick to use that "ignore button". I find the "regulars" on this forum to have well thought out ideas and can be good sources of knowledge. It just depends on the topic.

 

[KYGlockster]

Kentucky has the BEST laws in areas concerning self-protection and protection of another.

Here is Kentucky's criminal and civil immunity statute:

503.085 Justification and criminal and civil immunity for use of permitted force -- Exceptions.

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in KRS 503.050, 503.055, 503.070, and 503.080 IS JUSTIFIED in using such force and is IMMUNE from CRIMINAL prosecution and CIVIL ACTION for the use of such force, unless the person against whom the force was used is a peace officer, as defined in KRS 446.010, who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law, or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a peace officer. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes ARRESTING, DETAINING in custody, and CHARGING or PROSECUTING the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1) of this section, but the agency may NOT arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff, if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1) of this section.

Here are Kentucky's self-defense statutes that are mentioned in the statute above:

http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/070.PDF
http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/080.PDF
http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/050.PDF
http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/055.PDF

As you can see, we have excellent protections. We are even protected if we are the initial aggressor in certain circumstances and immune from civil and/or criminal liability. I do NOT suggest that anyone ever cause physical harm to another individual, but here is the statute:

http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/060.PDF -- Check out sub-section 3.

 

[Law of Self Defense]

No... but I can get you a really good deal on sprockets...


BTW - I wouldn't be so quick to use that "ignore button". I find the "regulars" on this forum to have well thought out ideas and can be good sources of knowledge. It just depends on the topic.

I appreciate that input. However, this isn't my first trip around the internets. The person I ignored had all the hallmarks of someone who did not have well-thought ideas nor was there any evidence that he was a good source of knowledge.

Rather he merely seemed argumentative, manipulative, and attention-hungry.

I, just like you (I assume), have limited time in the day to spend on internet forums. I prefer to spend my time communicating with people interested in a mutually beneficial exchange of ideas, not fencing with people who are merely looking for an argument for argument's sake.

Best regards,

Andrew

 

[Law of Self Defense]

Kentucky has the BEST laws in areas concerning self-protection and protection of another.

Here is Kentucky's criminal and civil immunity statute:

503.085 Justification and criminal and civil immunity for use of permitted force -- Exceptions.

. . .

Here are Kentucky's self-defense statutes that are mentioned in the statute above:

http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/070.PDF
http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/080.PDF
http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/050.PDF
http://lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/055.PDF

No offense, and Kentucky's self defense laws are genuinely excellent, but the immunity statute you cite is entirely dependent on meeting the very specific requirements of one of the several self defense statutes you link to.

Immunity is not guaranteed to a well-intentioned armed citizen, even in Kentucky, if they accidentally violate an element of the self defense statute that is the foundation for that immunity.

The lesson is the same: know the law. The WHOLE law.

Andrew

 

[georg jetson]

Kentucky has the BEST laws in areas concerning self-protection and protection of another.

SNIP

Fair enough, but what exactly would you do in a case of a judge giving improper instructions to a jury and the prosecutor and your defender does not interject? As a defendant what's you next step?

 

[Law of Self Defense]

Fair enough, but what exactly would you do in a case of a judges giving improper instructions to a jury and the prosecutor and your defender do not interject? As a defendant what's you next step?

[Sorry, I just realized that georg jetson's question wasn't directed to me. I'll leave the response below in place anyway, in the hopes that it might foster further discussion.]

Fair question.

Were I the defendant, I would have driven an elbow into my defense counsel's ribs and say, "Hey, stupid, that (the judge's instruction) isn't right, and it's going to send me to prison. OBJECT NOW."

If the lawyer was unresponsive (which I doubt, I have a big elbow :lol, I'd stand up myself and object.

Judges don't like it when the defendant personally injects himself in a case, but the objection still goes into the record, and it pretty much forces a bench meeting between the judge, the lawyers for each side, and his clerks, to make sure they aren't about to embarrass themselves.

Of course, in this particular case the defendant might still have been found guilty, even with a correct instruction. The point is we just don't know, because the incorrect instruction eliminated any chance of finding out.

But, really, in a practical sense I would have sat down with my lawyer long before the jury instruction phase of the trial and talked with him about it. What instruction do we want (in most jurisdiction each side proffers their own drafted instructions)? What elements are key to us? What would absolutely trigger us to make an objection to preserve the matter for appeal?

I wouldn't plan to win a gun fight if I'd never even considered holding a gun before, and I wouldn't plan on winning a legal fight if I'd never even considered thinking about the law before.

Therefore I learned how to handle a gun, and I learned about the law of self defense.

And I think all armed citizens should do the same.

Best,

Andrew

 

[georg jetson]

Well, I like to get the audience to participate, but since you're giving the answers...

A judge rules on an objection. If the objection is over-ruled, can that be appealed immediately in KY?

My point is that we need to know proper procedure in our state. Crimes and facts run the gambit, but procedure is the same every case. If we know the rules, then we can tell many times when our attorney is slacking.

Edited to correct a mis-statement.

 

[Law of Self Defense]

Well, I like to get the audience to participate, but since you're giving the answers...

A judge rules on an objection. If the objection is over-ruled, can that be appealed immediately in KY?

My point is that we need to know proper procedure in our state. Crimes and facts run the gambit, but procedure is the same every case. If we know the rules, then we can tell many times when our attorney is slacking.

Edited to correct a mis-statement.

An excellent question, but not one I'm prepared to answer directly.

I claim a certain nation-wide expertise in the law of self defense, but definitely NOT in the area of criminal procedure, which varies widely from state to state.

On the point you raise I'll defer to the much better informed legal experts on the forum who call any particular state their home.

Having said that, I have been told that in KY the state constitution provides that a person who has been sentenced to 20 years or more in prison has a right to appeal directly from the trial court to the state Supreme Court, and that this is what happened in the case I cited. (Certainly I was unable to find any intermediate appellate court activity on this case).

This is certainly not the case in MA, and I expect it's unusual generally. But it appears to be the case in KY.

Andrew

 

[OC for ME]

Really? The specific part of that process that I described as not working--the wrongful conviction of the defendant--that's the part of the process that you think worked? :banghead:

If wrongfully convicting people is a "working" function of the judicial system, you're welcome to it.

By the way, where's my latte?

Andrew

The "judicial system" is not about the law per se, but about legal procedures.

What mechanism is available to the citizenry to be sure that judges do not make this mistake in the future? There are only two answers. All other conditions are post getting screwed, then only one answer remains. The cited court case apparently worked out for the wronged citizen if I read the article correctly and the question answered was not even asked.

I have not received a answer, but no one is obligated to answer any question.

I agree. Mitigating is the best course of course. But, it did not go down that way. The legal system worked. Now, can the citizen gain redress is the question. If not, how does this result assist others in the future.

Getting screwed by the judge, and his attorney is not the failure of the "judicial system.".

The KY Supreme Court even mentions that the sentence handed down by the jury indicated, to the Supreme Court anyway, that the jury likely understood the law where as the judge and the citizen's attorney did not. Next issue, why did not the jury just nullify or acquit?

Blame the citizen for his ills. If he had not gone to his neighbor's property and vandalized his neighbor's property this thread would not exist. Or should not exist.

I agree that every lawfully armed citizen should also be armed with knowledge. I too have taken the time to become familiar with laws. I too have asked questions regard court procedures and legalese to better prepare myself in a unlikely event. But, I do not chastise a innocent "judicial system" for the failures of two individuals. That is bashing, though it is a thing and not a person or group of persons.....so bashing it may not be.

Our legal system is second to none. I'd rather have ours than any other, even England's current system. If you desire to change the "system" there are only two methods to accomplish meaningful change.

If you desire to hold accountable that judge then there is only two methods to accomplish this.

That nitwit attorney must deal with his own affairs as a result of his poor results and ineptitude and hopefully a sternly worded negative recommendation from a former client.

 

[WalkingWolf]

I appreciate that input. However, this isn't my first trip around the internets. The person I ignored had all the hallmarks of someone who did not have well-thought ideas nor was there any evidence that he was a good source of knowledge.

Translation = "I have been called out on other sites and move from site to site when challenged"

Rather he merely seemed argumentative, manipulative, and attention-hungry.

You are more than welcome to come to any conclusion you like, even if they are based on emotion, and getting challenged. Be mature enough to handle other peoples conclusions especially when they are based on fact, and YOUR own posts.

I, just like you (I assume), have limited time in the day to spend on internet forums. I prefer to spend my time communicating with people interested in a mutually beneficial exchange of ideas, not fencing with people who are merely looking for an argument for argument's sake.

Sorry to disappoint you but I was not arguing, just pointing out YOUR own posts which you do not stand behind, instead you claim to use ignore to hide your shame. If you can't handle someone disputing your statements and do not suck up at your feet, as another expects on here does. YOU better get used to running from site to site after getting your back end handed to you. ON this site you own your words, if you state something and then deny it, you will be called out on it, whether I do it or not. You better find your big boy pants if you want to play in this sandbox.