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Who needs a gun at a school board meeting? (Amazing Video)

eye95

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since9: I thought I was the lone member of your ignore list.

Yes, but, "eye95 has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages,"

So, on with life.

How you manage to respond to me when you keep repeating that I am on your 1-person ignore list continues to amaze and amuse me.

To clarify though, I have PM available. I just stopped allowing folks other than contacts and friends PM me after receiving a few harassing emails from one member. Let's see, that one member would be...umm...you.

(Let's see if he reads this "ignored" message. :lol: )
 

eye95

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Heres what pisses me off. Why does the school board have armed security, when everyone else at the meeting has to be disarmed and there are no armed guards in our schools while teachers and student have to pray the police are quick to respond to a school shooting in a "gun free zone"

He is there to protect you so that you don't need a gun. He is more prepared to defend you than you could ever be. I mean, would you have thought to carry the pop-gun and leave the cannon in the car? Would you have known that you had time to go to the car and that, when the gunman opened fire, he would be such a bad shot that he'd miss everyone? Would you have sought cover and blindly fired over the seats in the general direction of where you thought the BG was lying on the floor?

Of course not. This man is a "hero," and his mere presence obviates the need for any other LAC to carry his own portable self-protection tool.
 

since9

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Now, a jury may still let you off, possibly being disinclined to convict just based on them thinking to themselves that they would be scared and probably shoot, too. But, that is different from meeting the elements of AOJ/I.

Citizen, is AOJ/I the only criteria where you are? State laws here are much simpler, although some semblence of rationality/reasonability remain. In short, in the presence of a reasonable, immediate, and otherwise unavoidable fear of one's life or limb (knife, gun, glint in their eye, menacing words or body position), charges probably wouldn't be filed, , and it would probably never get to a jury.
 

Citizen

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Citizen, is AOJ/I the only criteria where you are? State laws here are much simpler, although some semblence of rationality/reasonability remain. In short, in the presence of a reasonable, immediate, and otherwise unavoidable fear of one's life or limb (knife, gun, glint in their eye, menacing words or body position), charges probably wouldn't be filed, , and it would probably never get to a jury.

AOJ/I is the self-defense and police world's breakdown of the elements needed to reach "reasonable." For example, it would be unreasonable to believe you are going to get stabbed if he threatens to cut you, but does not have a knife--no ability. Or, to borrow from one of Ayoob's examples, it would be unreasonable to believe you are going to get hurt if there is a bunch of jeering and threats about a beating, but there is a raging creek between you and them--no opportunity.
 

Citizen

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...Brandishing a firearm would lead a reasonable and prudent person to believe that imminent death or great bodily harm was present, and an active threat. Jeopardy/Intent is satisfied by brandishing a weapon at someone. Actions convey intent...

Lets not change things as we go along. Its hard enough to follow without it. We've been talking about merely drawing the firearm, "which is at most brandishing." No mention yet of brandishing at someone. Two different things there. We've been talking about the draw being brandishing, not drawing and then brandishing at someone.

I don't agree that brandishing a firearm would give a reasonable and prudent person the idea that imminent death or great bodily harm was present. It would certainly ratchet up the seriousness. But, if brandishing justified lethal force, there would be a lot more dead threatened-suicides. Any gun or knife held in the hand as an intimidation factor (for want of a better word) would be justification for police to shoot. Every time. Yet, we've seen numerous videos where police didn't shoot the suicide-threat, or the bad guy who only brandishes. Plenty where he was shot once his brandishing got around to brandishing at the cops, though. But, there are plenty where he wasn't shot while brandishing, but not pointing at anybody.

One element of the video that supports my idea that brandishing is not enough is the simple fact that he did not start shooting the moment the gun was drawn. The fact he did not start shooting right after the draw is proof that the intent was not present. He clearly intended not to shoot, otherwise he would have started shooting.

Another aspect of this is time. In that sort of situation, by the time we start to react to the draw, the moment has already passed on to the point where it is obvious he is not shooting.

At the moment of the draw, about all one can say is that he might intend to start shooting later, but we don't know that, yet. And if he might start shooting later, it necessarily means that he might not.

So, we cannot say injury or death to the innocent is imminent, because we cannot say the intent exists.

Is it prudent to shoot him at the instant he drew? I'll say its the safest thing to do; but I still can't see it being justified. As I mentioned earlier, the only thing I can see is drawing our own weapon while moving to cover, and ordering him to drop his. I can even see pointing our gun at him, safety off, even. But, not shooting just because he drew in a school board meeting, just after finishing spraying a "V" on the wall.
 
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since9

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Heres what pisses me off. Why does the school board have armed security, when everyone else at the meeting has to be disarmed and there are no armed guards in our schools while teachers and student have to pray the police are quick to respond to a school shooting in a "gun free zone"

He didn't, Scott. He had to retrieve his firearm from his vehicle, no doubt not only a reqirement of his employment, but if you'll dive into the documents, I suspect you may find he was prohibited as a condition of employment from bringing his firearm onto school grounds at all. I'd love to believe I was wrong on this, but I'd also love to see the original documents in the orignal ink stand up to DBI date/time origination tests.

Yeah... God, I hate back-dating sons of something or other I can't mention here because I'm one of the "good guys."

Thanks!

The major lesson to be gleaned that its not just ONE factor that establishes intent. The totality of the circumstance determines the legality of a self defense situation. In this situation, I counted 5 different things that were coming together to paint a picture of intent.

And whether or not those clues present themselves over a period of 90 seconds, or 3 seconds, it's up to us.

Situational awareness is key.

Bingo, and proper training helps out a great deal.

Self defense doesn't start when you pull the trigger. What leads up to it is just as important as the final irrevocable act of pulling the trigger. Keep your head on a swivel and scrutinize everyone and everything in your zone of influence.

You're absolutely right. The most effective stops by either armed citizens or LEOs began with the "something's not quite right" perception of an observant individual. I've had my fair share, many in the military, yet only two in civilian life.

The circumstances may change, but by and large, people don't. Common sense and the best knowledge of the law one can obtain are key.
 

eye95

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He didn't, Scott. He had to retrieve his firearm from his vehicle, no doubt not only a reqirement of his employment, but if you'll dive into the documents, I suspect you may find he was prohibited as a condition of employment from bringing his firearm onto school grounds at all. I'd love to believe I was wrong on this, but I'd also love to see the original documents in the orignal ink stand up to DBI date/time origination tests...

From the context, it seems that "He didn't" means that "He didn't have a firearm" or that "He was unarmed." If so, that is incorrect. In the interviews, the security guard states that he had is .38 on him and went to the car for his 40-cal, the ammo for it, and his vest.
 

Sc0tt

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Asheboro, NC
From the context, it seems that "He didn't" means that "He didn't have a firearm" or that "He was unarmed." If so, that is incorrect. In the interviews, the security guard states that he had is .38 on him and went to the car for his 40-cal, the ammo for it, and his vest.

Ok well lets give it to him that he was un armed. He was NOT a LEO and he brought a gun into a gun free zone if it was anyone of us we'd be in jail right now. Dont get me wrong its great he shot the phyco and saved lives but I sence a double standard here?
 

eye95

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Ok well lets give it to him that he was un armed. He was NOT a LEO and he brought a gun into a gun free zone if it was anyone of us we'd be in jail right now. Dont get me wrong its great he shot the phyco and saved lives but I sence a double standard here?

I don't know about the law in Florida, but here in Alabama, folks hired by the school board can be authorized to carry. Someone familiar with Florida law would have to let us know if the school board can authorize security to carry.

Also, were they in a school zone? Or was the meeting conducted in an administrative building not on a campus?
 

palerider116

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From watching the video several times, from the angle that the camera is at, it appears as he drew his firearm it was already pointed at the blond female sitting closest to the wall.

I agree it is the safest just to drill him from get go. Having him at gunpoint is dangerous too. If you introduce a third actor into the situation, whether its the police, armed security, or another gun carrier, they may not have the back story to why you have him at gunpoint. The possibility of getting shot yourself goes up exponentially the longer you have your firearm pointed at someone.

No doubt about it, its a heck of a mess. It definitely pays to know the law, know how to articulate what you did and why you did, and go over these situations in your mind. Rehearsing them in your mind can help you figure out where your threshold is for employing deadly force. Once you satisfy the legal requirements, pulling the trigger is an extremely personal decision.

The exchange of ideas on this is one of the best threads I've seen so far on the forum.
 

since9

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From the context, it seems that "He didn't" means that "He didn't have a firearm" or that "He was unarmed." If so, that is incorrect. In the interviews, the security guard states that he had is .38 on him and went to the car for his 40-cal, the ammo for it, and his vest.

Interesting. I didn't catch this bit of info. Might you have a link or two to either news or interview supporting this?
 

eye95

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Interesting. I didn't catch this bit of info. Might you have a link or two to either news or interview supporting this?

Yeah. I provide that information to folks who don't make a big show of ignoring me and then read my posts and reply anyway. Folks who show respect for individuals and the grass roots nature of this site get respect and help from me. Those who don't...

Seriously, though, links to videos are strewn throughout this thread and the others. The interview with CBS and CNN are in there for those who want to look them up. At the moment, I don't.
 

Grapeshot

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IMO - Brandishing (by touch, holding or gesture) does not in itself constitute an immediate threat of imminent serious harm.

Pointing a gun at someone does.

The distinction between the two is the decision maker.
 

eye95

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Whatever. You've re-earned your ignore status.

Good-bye.

No problem, But, if you make a huge show of ignoring me and pointing out to all that I am the only one on your ignore list, then, for the love of all that is holy, actually ignore me. Please.

It is your choice, just actually decide either to have a cake or to eat it, but not both. :rolleyes:
 
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