HankT
State Researcher
imported post
*****You can choose as many answers as you wish.*****
People have different opinions on showing ID to LEO when stopped for a "consensual" encounter or when the LEO is investigating a complaint or call.
Three recent cases provide a nice sample of LE reactions to "man with a gun" call outcomes. One (out of several) interesting aspects is how the person stopped handled the "Let me see your ID" command.Or the personjust offered up an ID.
These 3 cases were:
1. unrequited--confronted in a B&N store by APD.
2. psmartin--confronted by VBPD while on a bike ride.
3. expvideo--confronted by TPD at a shopping mall.
All threeposted detailed accounts of their stops here, including transcripts or descriptions of their verbal exchange with the officers. Here they are:
1.
Sgt. Mucci: "Why do you have a gun then?"
me: "Personal self-defense."
Sgt. Mucci: "Come with us, and I'm going to have to see your concealed permit if you have one as well."
I then noticed that there was another officer behind me, and I replied, "Is there a problem? I'm open carrying so I don't need a concealed carry permit, and I've open carried here many times before, what's the problem?"
Sgt. Mucci: "Come with us, we'll talk about this outside."
I asked, "Am I being arrested officer?"
Sgt. Mucci: "No, you'd be in cuffs by now."
I asked, "Am I being detained officer?"
Sgt. Mucci: "No, but if you don't come with us, there'll be something very bad."
...I stood up and said, "If I'm not being detained I'll talk with you guys outside."
....
Once outside, Sgt. Terri Mucci asked me, "Why do you have a gun?"
me:"Like I said, personal self-defense."
Sgt. Mucci: "Can I have your ID?"
me:"No. I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion."
Sgt. Mucci: "What's your name?"
me:"I'm Chris, what's your name?"
no reply...
Sgt. Mucci: "What's your last name?"
me:"I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion. I'm Chris."
Sgt. Mucci: "I don't know what your problem is, or what agenda you're pushing, but there are dozens of kids, and this is a playground." [continued]
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3671.html
2.
VBPD: I noticed you were armed. Are you are security guard?
ME: No, Just John Q Public.
VBPD: To carry that concealed requires a permit, but I see you're not concealing
ME: I have my Virgina permit (turned towards the officer as I reached into my front pocket.. -- displayed it, he looked & handed it right back)
VBPD: The resort area is very safe, what you're doing IS LEGAL, but really not advisable. (motioned to see my wallet again, I gave it back and he used his flashlight to look at the address on the CHP, but didn't ever look at my [highlight= #ffff88]VA DL, he then gave back my wallet.. all in the timespan of 15 seconds or less)
VBPD: What brings you to Virginia [highlight= #88ffff]Beach
ME: Just vacationing for a few days, I'm working off the pizza dinner as we speak.
VBPD: Again, you're perfectly legal, it's not advisable, you might want to conceal as you have a permit.
ME: True, although biking concealed isn't too comfortable. (at that point I put my water bottle back on the bike and prepared to depart)
VBPD: Make sure youkeep both hands visible if you encounter any more of us, and carry isn't allowed in any ABC establishments.
ME: Of Course, Open Carry required.
VBPD: (waved/departing guesture)
ME: Take care.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3699.html
3. As we were walking into the parking garage, two Tukwila Police Department officers (badge numbers 160 and 168) yelled at me “Hey, stop. Put your hands behind your head”. I complied and asked what the problem was. I remained polite and professional throughout our encounter and never raised my voice. 168 said “You’re carrying a visible gun with no badge”. I told him that it was legal and within my rights. He said I had to conceal it and that I had no right to open carry.
He asked for my concealed weapon permit. I asked him if I was being detained. He said no. I asked “Am I free to leave?” He got angry and said “NO!” I said “then am I being detained?” He said yes, I was being detained for investigation of a concealed weapons permit.
I started to fish my permit out of my wallet, and he could plainly see it. Second thinking the actions that were being taken against me and the unconstitutionality of their actions, I returned the permit to my wallet without giving it to them and told them that I do not have to show them a permit. I was firm but polite. I let them know that I only had to show them a permit if I was concealing a gun. 160 told me that I was wrong and I had to have a permit to carry no matter what. I politely refused to show them my permit and 168 grabbed my arm, forcefully twisting it behind my back. Fearing for my safety, I said “Can I just give you my id?” 168 let go of my arm and let me get my Drivers License. They continued running my license and at this time 171 arrived. I asked if I was being detained, and he said that I was.
At this point a mall security guard had joined in on the argument. He was reading off of the back of his permit and read “Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol.” This is the only point of the conversation that I said anything disrespectful. I said, “finish the sentence, jackass.” This was rude of me, and the officers responded as such yelling in my face, 171 coming within a centimeter of touching noses with me. I feared again for my safety. The reason I told the security guard to finish the sentence was that the whole sentence says “Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license[/b] in his or her possession at all times that he or she is required by law...” the sentence did not say that I had to conceal the pistol, as the guard had stated.
Another security guard told me that it was illegal to carry in the mall. I told him that it may be against his mall policy, but it is not illegal. He said that the ruled was posted at all entrances to the mall. I told him that we entered through Sears, and didn’t see a sign. He confirmed that there was no sign at that entrance.
I asked 171 if I was free to go. He said no, so I asked why. He said that I was being detained for a Tukwila law that says I can’t open carry. I told him that there was state preemption and Tukwila gun laws are not enforceable.[continued]
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/3696.html
The legality of OCing in each of these three incidents is not in question. It's legal. No one can successfully dispute that upon analysis.
But the 3 outcomes were different:1 kinda bad (unrequited), 1 kinda bad (expvideo), and 1 pretty OK (psmartin).
I'm mulling over the possibility that the ID issue and question (Let me see your ID/CHP/etc.) and how it was handledby the stoppee might have had a bearing on the outcomes. You might think so, too. So here, shown below,are the transcripts/detailings of the verbal part of the 3encounters.
It should help raise the question, though: What would you do if you got stopped for OC and the LEO asked for an ID (DL, CHP, etc.) where you are not required by statute to produce it for him/her?
Do you give it up readily? Do you proactively produce the ID? Do you make it difficult? Do you decline? Do you decline even if you are going to the graybar hotel?
Pick as many of the poll's choices as you think apply. Post any other ideas you might have on what you'd do if you find yourself in a situation similar to unrequited, psmartin, Chet S.
*****You can choose as many answers as you wish.*****
*****You can choose as many answers as you wish.*****
People have different opinions on showing ID to LEO when stopped for a "consensual" encounter or when the LEO is investigating a complaint or call.
Three recent cases provide a nice sample of LE reactions to "man with a gun" call outcomes. One (out of several) interesting aspects is how the person stopped handled the "Let me see your ID" command.Or the personjust offered up an ID.
These 3 cases were:
1. unrequited--confronted in a B&N store by APD.
2. psmartin--confronted by VBPD while on a bike ride.
3. expvideo--confronted by TPD at a shopping mall.
All threeposted detailed accounts of their stops here, including transcripts or descriptions of their verbal exchange with the officers. Here they are:
1.
Sgt. Mucci: "Why do you have a gun then?"
me: "Personal self-defense."
Sgt. Mucci: "Come with us, and I'm going to have to see your concealed permit if you have one as well."
I then noticed that there was another officer behind me, and I replied, "Is there a problem? I'm open carrying so I don't need a concealed carry permit, and I've open carried here many times before, what's the problem?"
Sgt. Mucci: "Come with us, we'll talk about this outside."
I asked, "Am I being arrested officer?"
Sgt. Mucci: "No, you'd be in cuffs by now."
I asked, "Am I being detained officer?"
Sgt. Mucci: "No, but if you don't come with us, there'll be something very bad."
...I stood up and said, "If I'm not being detained I'll talk with you guys outside."
....
Once outside, Sgt. Terri Mucci asked me, "Why do you have a gun?"
me:"Like I said, personal self-defense."
Sgt. Mucci: "Can I have your ID?"
me:"No. I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion."
Sgt. Mucci: "What's your name?"
me:"I'm Chris, what's your name?"
no reply...
Sgt. Mucci: "What's your last name?"
me:"I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion. I'm Chris."
Sgt. Mucci: "I don't know what your problem is, or what agenda you're pushing, but there are dozens of kids, and this is a playground." [continued]
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3671.html
2.
VBPD: I noticed you were armed. Are you are security guard?
ME: No, Just John Q Public.
VBPD: To carry that concealed requires a permit, but I see you're not concealing
ME: I have my Virgina permit (turned towards the officer as I reached into my front pocket.. -- displayed it, he looked & handed it right back)
VBPD: The resort area is very safe, what you're doing IS LEGAL, but really not advisable. (motioned to see my wallet again, I gave it back and he used his flashlight to look at the address on the CHP, but didn't ever look at my [highlight= #ffff88]VA DL, he then gave back my wallet.. all in the timespan of 15 seconds or less)
VBPD: What brings you to Virginia [highlight= #88ffff]Beach
ME: Just vacationing for a few days, I'm working off the pizza dinner as we speak.
VBPD: Again, you're perfectly legal, it's not advisable, you might want to conceal as you have a permit.
ME: True, although biking concealed isn't too comfortable. (at that point I put my water bottle back on the bike and prepared to depart)
VBPD: Make sure youkeep both hands visible if you encounter any more of us, and carry isn't allowed in any ABC establishments.
ME: Of Course, Open Carry required.
VBPD: (waved/departing guesture)
ME: Take care.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3699.html
3. As we were walking into the parking garage, two Tukwila Police Department officers (badge numbers 160 and 168) yelled at me “Hey, stop. Put your hands behind your head”. I complied and asked what the problem was. I remained polite and professional throughout our encounter and never raised my voice. 168 said “You’re carrying a visible gun with no badge”. I told him that it was legal and within my rights. He said I had to conceal it and that I had no right to open carry.
He asked for my concealed weapon permit. I asked him if I was being detained. He said no. I asked “Am I free to leave?” He got angry and said “NO!” I said “then am I being detained?” He said yes, I was being detained for investigation of a concealed weapons permit.
I started to fish my permit out of my wallet, and he could plainly see it. Second thinking the actions that were being taken against me and the unconstitutionality of their actions, I returned the permit to my wallet without giving it to them and told them that I do not have to show them a permit. I was firm but polite. I let them know that I only had to show them a permit if I was concealing a gun. 160 told me that I was wrong and I had to have a permit to carry no matter what. I politely refused to show them my permit and 168 grabbed my arm, forcefully twisting it behind my back. Fearing for my safety, I said “Can I just give you my id?” 168 let go of my arm and let me get my Drivers License. They continued running my license and at this time 171 arrived. I asked if I was being detained, and he said that I was.
At this point a mall security guard had joined in on the argument. He was reading off of the back of his permit and read “Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol.” This is the only point of the conversation that I said anything disrespectful. I said, “finish the sentence, jackass.” This was rude of me, and the officers responded as such yelling in my face, 171 coming within a centimeter of touching noses with me. I feared again for my safety. The reason I told the security guard to finish the sentence was that the whole sentence says “Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license[/b] in his or her possession at all times that he or she is required by law...” the sentence did not say that I had to conceal the pistol, as the guard had stated.
Another security guard told me that it was illegal to carry in the mall. I told him that it may be against his mall policy, but it is not illegal. He said that the ruled was posted at all entrances to the mall. I told him that we entered through Sears, and didn’t see a sign. He confirmed that there was no sign at that entrance.
I asked 171 if I was free to go. He said no, so I asked why. He said that I was being detained for a Tukwila law that says I can’t open carry. I told him that there was state preemption and Tukwila gun laws are not enforceable.[continued]
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/3696.html
The legality of OCing in each of these three incidents is not in question. It's legal. No one can successfully dispute that upon analysis.
But the 3 outcomes were different:1 kinda bad (unrequited), 1 kinda bad (expvideo), and 1 pretty OK (psmartin).
I'm mulling over the possibility that the ID issue and question (Let me see your ID/CHP/etc.) and how it was handledby the stoppee might have had a bearing on the outcomes. You might think so, too. So here, shown below,are the transcripts/detailings of the verbal part of the 3encounters.
It should help raise the question, though: What would you do if you got stopped for OC and the LEO asked for an ID (DL, CHP, etc.) where you are not required by statute to produce it for him/her?
Do you give it up readily? Do you proactively produce the ID? Do you make it difficult? Do you decline? Do you decline even if you are going to the graybar hotel?
Pick as many of the poll's choices as you think apply. Post any other ideas you might have on what you'd do if you find yourself in a situation similar to unrequited, psmartin, Chet S.
*****You can choose as many answers as you wish.*****