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WSP KIA during traffic stop

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
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Long gone
The person who, apparently, shot himself is innocent. It seems likely that he will properly be judged to be guilty. Right now he is innocent.

How is this concept difficult?

So every District Attorney thinks every person he prosecutes is innocent until a judge or jury tells him different?????

Following your logic; that would also mean that Cops arrested people they thought were innocent every time they made an arrest, right?
 

decklin

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
758
Location
Pacific, WA
This is the only decent thing you have said in your last post.
The point not all families or friends contribute to some turning out the way they did or what they have done, to assume so is truly unjust.
Reread DocWalker's post. He never claimed the family was responsible for the conditioning of a murderer. He said they will have to live with their relationship to the individual.
 

()pen(arry

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
735
Location
Seattle, WA; escaped from 18 years in TX
So every District Attorney thinks every person he prosecutes is innocent until a judge or jury tells him different?????

Following your logic; that would also mean that Cops arrested people they thought were innocent every time they made an arrest, right?

First, the Presumption of Innocence is as old as Western history, as well as Common Law. It underpins the adversarial legal system in this country. It is intrinsic to the Reasonable Doubt standard in jurisprudence. It has been held to be Constitutionally mandated since 1895. In short, it is a principle as fundamental to the nature of this nation as the Right to Bear Arms.

Second, I would think that people (including me) who are instinctively mistrustful of media would demonstrate a degree of circumspection when basing moral judgements on media reports, especially ones that have already been shown to be conflicting.

Third, I would hope that people interested in right, justice, and due process would be naturally inclined to grant the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is accused of a crime, let alone someone who has not yet even been accused.

Fourth, governmental prosecutors, including district attorneys, do not, at least in theory, prosecute people they assume to be innocent or guilty; there is no assumption made (yet there remains the presumption of innocence). What they do is execute the legal path that they and/or their employers determine is proper according to the laws of their jurisdiction, seeking justice, not conviction. It is, undeniably, the case that government prosecutors, particularly those who are elected, are incentivized to favor conviction over justice. All the more reason that rational and justice-minded people should err on the side of presuming innocence.

Fifth, police officers do not, at least in theory, arrest people they have determined to be guilty. Rather, they arrest people who have met statutorily-defined standards for detention and incarceration, which make no assumption of guilt or innocence (yet there remains the presumption of innocence), but instead determine reasonable allowances for the maintenance of public safety in pursuit of justice. It is, undeniably, the case that police officers are often incentivized to arrest those who have not, by reasonable and objective judgement, met those statutorily-defined standards. All the more reason that rational and justice-minded people should err on the side of presuming innocence.

Finally, while we, as human creatures, are prone to make judgements based upon limited evidence, and often do so properly, effectively, and usefully, we must, as rational, objective people, strive always to withhold hasty, unsubstantiated judgement upon our fellow people, particularly when it comes to their lives, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. A dead man deserves no less.
 

Trigger Dr

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
2,760
Location
Wa, ,
I lived in the Port Orchard/Bremerton Area a while back and this area has numerous State Patrol Officers that usually gather around Gorst and if you have never been pulled over there for slightly speeding that would be odd as I have seen up to 6 State Patrol Officers lined up south bound numerous times ie around start and end of the day shifts to later in the evening, some say this area is a training area for New Officers.

On that note it is not surprising to hear they do so many stops mainly for speeding (speed trap 60 mph to 40 and back to 60 while never leaving Hwy's 16/3/16) but not just to suggest just randomly stopping someone.

Dave, I have lived in Port Orchard for the last 35 years and I have never seen that many patrol cars in Gorst at one time. Between Bremerton and Silverdale, you may occassionally see 2-3 cars running radar and chase car.
I travel that road daily.
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
First, the Presumption of Innocence is as old as Western history, as well as Common Law. It underpins the adversarial legal system in this country. It is intrinsic to the Reasonable Doubt standard in jurisprudence. It has been held to be Constitutionally mandated since 1895. In short, it is a principle as fundamental to the nature of this nation as the Right to Bear Arms.

Second, I would think that people (including me) who are instinctively mistrustful of media would demonstrate a degree of circumspection when basing moral judgements on media reports, especially ones that have already been shown to be conflicting.

Third, I would hope that people interested in right, justice, and due process would be naturally inclined to grant the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is accused of a crime, let alone someone who has not yet even been accused.

Fourth, governmental prosecutors, including district attorneys, do not, at least in theory, prosecute people they assume to be innocent or guilty; there is no assumption made (yet there remains the presumption of innocence). What they do is execute the legal path that they and/or their employers determine is proper according to the laws of their jurisdiction, seeking justice, not conviction. It is, undeniably, the case that government prosecutors, particularly those who are elected, are incentivized to favor conviction over justice. All the more reason that rational and justice-minded people should err on the side of presuming innocence.

Fifth, police officers do not, at least in theory, arrest people they have determined to be guilty. Rather, they arrest people who have met statutorily-defined standards for detention and incarceration, which make no assumption of guilt or innocence (yet there remains the presumption of innocence), but instead determine reasonable allowances for the maintenance of public safety in pursuit of justice. It is, undeniably, the case that police officers are often incentivized to arrest those who have not, by reasonable and objective judgement, met those statutorily-defined standards. All the more reason that rational and justice-minded people should err on the side of presuming innocence.

Finally, while we, as human creatures, are prone to make judgements based upon limited evidence, and often do so properly, effectively, and usefully, we must, as rational, objective people, strive always to withhold hasty, unsubstantiated judgement upon our fellow people, particularly when it comes to their lives, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. A dead man deserves no less.

Thats all well and good but how could anyone ever face trial unless the DA and the arresting Cop thought they were guilty. If the DA thought they were innocent they would drop the charges. If the cop thought they were innocent he would not arrest them in the first place. Other wise you are telling me that the DA is prosecuting people that he thinks are innocent and Cops are arresting people they think are innocent.

Now I do believe that Cops on occasion arrest people they know to be innocent, been there done that, I also believe that sometimes A DA will prosecute someone they know is innocent.

Everything you posted above is symbolic and does not exist in the real world.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
The person who, apparently, shot himself is innocent. It seems likely that he will properly be judged to be guilty. Right now he is innocent.

How is this concept difficult?

He is only presumed innocent as he enters the judicial system. The public, the media, myself, Orphan and others can judge him as we wish.
 

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
This is the only decent thing you have said in your last post.
The point not all families or friends contribute to some turning out the way they did or what they have done, to assume so is truly unjust.

My bad everyone hold hands and sing "combia"...

Just like everything else it is nobodys fault. If his parents didn't have him the officer would be alive, but that isn't their fault, if the parents would have raised him to know murder and crime was wrong and held him accountable if he screwed up then he might not have turned to crime....yep nobodies fault.
 

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
The person who, apparently, shot himself is innocent. It seems likely that he will properly be judged to be guilty. Right now he is innocent.

How is this concept difficult?

What are they going to do prop him up in the court room or dig up 12 dead people to be a jury of his peers? He can't be judged except by god and satin now, but killing himself kinda points to a guilty person.


How difficult of he is dead and can't be taken to court now is that concept difficult to understand.
 

arentol

New member
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Messages
383
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
The person who, apparently, shot himself is innocent. It seems likely that he will properly be judged to be guilty. Right now he is innocent.

How is this concept difficult?

It isn't that it is difficult, it is that it is wrong.

Lets say I walk up to you tomorrow and, of my own volition, put a gun to your head, pull the trigger, a bullet comes out of the barrel, and it destroys your brain. You die.

Am I guilty of having killed you?

Yeah, I am.

I could never be caught, I could be caught but not prosecuted, I could be caught and plead guilty, I could be prosecuted but not convicted, or I could be prosecuted and convicted. None of these outcomes would affect whether I committed the act and therefore none of them would change whether I was guilty of having killed you.

This is because their are two kinds of guilt....

Legal guilt and moral guilt.

The one is completely independent of the other. Under our legal system the first requires judgement by others (usually), the second doesn't exist. Under common morality the second always exists and requires no judgement at any time by anyone, it simply is.
 
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