Gene German News Flash

oak1971 said:

He's talking inside the beltway politics. What he hasn't figured out yet is that the Madison group-think elitist syndrome is out the window now, people are waking up.

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What many on this board are not getting is that some people are also getting sour to Open Carry.

It is not in the bank yet as far as Constitutional Carry, or any other CC bill being presented. Don't assume the Republican party will maintain their pre-election stance. If you don't believe politicians lie (they call it "waffling"), then I have some land in southern Florida you may be interested in. Law makers may look at people like German and assume they know what is best due to their perceived experience in the matter. The political environment has changed in Madison, but don't let that fool you. The winds of politics change often and indiscriminately, driven by current events such as the shooting in Arizona.

I also agree that a firearm is not a fashion accessory, but the reason someone carries is no ones business other than their own. Internal bickering doesn't help resolve anything either.

Interceptor_Knight said:

The public is in support of a permit system.

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You don't know that with out an extensive scientific poll, you are making an assumption based on what limited information you have available. Neither do our elected officials as there was no such poll. It is a matter of education by letting the public know of the options based on fact, not supposition. If the public doesn't know what Constitutional Carry is, they wont know if they prefer it.

Interceptor_Knight said:

What many on this board are not getting is that some people are also getting sour to Open Carry.

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So now you speak for all the people? Give me a break. You can't possibly know that. If you want to have a discussion, please quit labeling your opinions as "the will of the people".

I have no use for a permit system. It is only another tax on the law abiding citizens. A low income person has just as much right to defend themselves as someone carrying a bag of cash.

Part of the reason I carry is to get people accustomed to seeing open firearms. At one time it was part of everyday life. Kind of like breastfeeding or skirts above the knee. Sometimes way above the knee! The public just has to get accustomed to it again. The other reason I carry is because because of human nature and the court system, there are still scum bags among society!

And for those that don't like my reasons for carrying, I could care less. These are my reasons and I will continue to carry as often as possible.

Carry On!

Krusty said:

I have no use for a permit system. It is only another tax on the law abiding citizens. A low income person has just as much right to defend themselves as someone carrying a bag of cash.

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Someone carrying a bag of cash may be more likely to need to defend themselves though . . .

Interceptor_Knight said:

Unpermitted carry is not a done deal and the less reasonable Open Carriers are percieved as a group due in no small part to this board and to actions in public, the more likely that we will end up with a Concealed Carry Permit and not a Carry Permit where you may Open or Concealed Carry under the permit.

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Thank you for taking the time to clarify. I guess as you blame us I will blame Mr German and the other instructors for not supporting Constitutional Carry. Regardless of the outcome I intend to only support the one Instructor's business who took the time to support us on this forum.

Also there is waffling and then there is political suicide. If this new guy does not do something soon it's gonna get real ugly.

A few thoughts.

First lets deconstruct Gene's "announcement"

First he says:

The good news is that legislators have come to appreciate that Constitutional carry is now and always has been the law of Wisconsin and yes, some restrictions apply.

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So Gene tries to 'spin' the definition of constitutional carry meaning open-carry is constitutional carry with all its restrictions. AND he says legislators have "come to appreciate" that it is part of Wisconsin law. So legislators appreciate open-carry by that statement.

THEN he says:

For reasons we can probably blame on the education system, demands for “Constitutional carry” have been sent to a few legislators. I can not think of a better way for those people to loose all their credibility and become irrelevant in Madison than to waste a legislators’ precious time needlessly asking for something they already have. Legislators are also sensitive to the growing unfavorable public opinion of open carriers

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This comment is beyond non-sense. Gene doesn't get to change the definition of constitutional carry to "open carry with all its restrictions" and then claim that people asking for constitutional carry "loose (sic) all their credibility".

Anyone in Wisconsin knows that open-carry does not fit the definition of constitutional carry and is so restricted that it doesn't fit the definition of constitutional carry because with so many restriction (vehicle carry ban, gfsz ban, conceal ban) you can't practically exercise the right.

It appears Gene doesn't want to acknowledge that PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR A PERMIT NOR BE FORCED TO TAKE HIS CLASS in order to conceal carry.

As to "souring" of open carry. I am curious "who" is getting sour of open carry?

As an individual, I have had nothing but positive experiences open-carrying all over the state.

The response from people is overwhelmingly positive and most people have a greater respect for the right of people to carry and see that guns "don't just jump out of holsters and go off". I've had people who've never been around guns comment that after the initial surprise at SEEING a gun, it wasn't a big deal at all.

As groups we've had events and had similar comments from non-carrying customers coming in to establishments that they have a positive reaction to it.

I'm confident there are people who saw me carrying that didn't like it and DON'T respect the right to carry, but I believe these are the minority. These are the 26%'ers who didn't vote for Art. 1 Sec. 25 in the 1998 referendum.

So I am curious what politicians who've been sent to Madison under the wave of tea-party backed support for more freedom minded smaller government lower-taxes are going to take stock in the 26 %'ers.

I'm curious what Madison legislators haven't learned over the past 2 years that the VOCAL MINORITY of the past that use to impose their will on us all is NOT the horse to hitch your wagon to.

All that said... IF the general public is souring of open-carry (which I don't think the majority really are at all, quite the contrary) bit IF the general public is souring of open-carry FINE. Pass constitutional carry. Let people carry concealed. Problem solved.

What is next? Is Gene going to claim people are BEGGING to have to get a permit instead? Is Gene going to try to claim that the people have risen and demanded a tax on their right to carry?

Realistically, those who stand to profit from mandatory training aside, what individual that wants to carry concealed wouldn't prefer to do so for free without having to register?

My personal opinion. I think Gene German is souring of open-carry. I think Gene German is souring of people exercising their right to carry without having to go through his training class and obtain a government permit.

I think Gene German is souring over the support that REAL constitutional carry has garnered. Just the fact that Gene is addressing constitutional carry speaks volumes.

And I've noticed over the past 3 months since the election talking with all the people I have in Madison and elsewhere across the state including leaders of other gun rights groups that EVERYONE seems to think they have an "in" in Madison and EVERYONE claims to be "the one" who's got the ear of legislators.

Honestly, I've heard 3 different groups position themselves that they've got the inside track, they are writing the bill, and "their" bill is a done deal.

I submit that is just wishful thinking. Everyone wants you to BELIEVE what they tell you so you stop contacting your legislators.

I offer that IF any group REALLY had the inside track and was confident they REALLY had the ear of "the" legislators to introduce their bill AND get it passed why are they out so vigorously stirring the pot for support? To use Gene German's logic... I can't think of a better way for a gun lobbyist to waste their time than go seeking support if their shall-issue bill is a shoe-in.

I submit that we REMAIN tossed up between shall-issue and constitutional carry.

Groups are out seeking support because they KNOW no one has it locked up.

Instructor based groups that have a goal of shall-issue KNOW they need more support to fend off constitutional carry. If they had it locked up, they wouldn't be addressing constitutional carry all of a sudden.

The dog has been wagged. Constitutional Carry is on their radar.

Whether we get constitutional carry or have to settle for shall-issue remains up to individuals to contact their legislators, educate them on what constitutional carry is, and ask them to support it.

Word home slice.

handyhamlet said:

word home slice.

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que?

Translation:
Holy **** that was like the hand of God coming down and bitch slapping the stupid out of this thread!

HandyHamlet said:

Translation:
Holy **** that was like the hand of God coming down and bitch slapping the stupid out of this thread!

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Yep, WCI is good. Thats why we all support them. Helps to keep us in-line a little, and follow a common goal.

I do wish Gene could get on the same page as the rest of us... Sounds like he just wants the money, again...

Nick needs to forward that to Madison and Mr. German. :banana:

HandyHamlet said:

Translation:
Holy **** that was like the hand of God coming down and bitch slapping the stupid out of this thread!

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Word

HandyHamlet said:

Translation:
Holy **** that was like the hand of God coming down and bitch slapping the stupid out of this thread!

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That should be a sig line. And now it will be.

Interceptor_Knight said:

Waiting does you no good if you are going to leave the State tomorrow on a trip. The only reason people should wish to Open Carry is to defend yourself, and not simply as some kind of statement. Anyone who feels that carrying a firearm is important to self defense should be doing so wherever you travel whether that be inside or outside of WI. All it takes to get a FL permit is a Hunters' Safety Certificate or to be a Veteran. The excuse of huge training costs for a permit does not hold water.
There is no such thing as "transferring your permit to WI". If WI recognized non-resident permits for WI residents, you would not need to get another permit.
If WI will not recognize your MN non-resident permit, it is a safe bet that if you already have a MN permit, the additional training costs for a WI permit will be very minimal. If you "only" have a FL permit, you will likely pay more for WI training.

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All states that require permits have residency requirements. For example, in TN, if you are there more than 90 days, you are required to apply for a permit as a resident. So not getting a new permit and just using your Florida permit would not stand. Not to mention, there is always the fact that Wisconsin does not have to recognize any other states permit (As is the case in Colorado). The point I was making is that my fellow instructors that I have talked to have seen far too many people that a re "Stuck On Stupid" and think that having a MN non resident will automatically make them OK to carry in Wisconsin when/if this goes through in that way.

And as far as training goes for the "Pay more for WI training", that is just a matter of opinion. I already teach FREE open carry courses in Wisconsin. I have also made it very clear that if Constitutional Carry goes through I will back up the open carry courses with FREE Concealed Carry courses. The only reason these two courses would not be free is if I incur some outside fee to teach people. I already teach CCW Refreshers to LEO's for Free (Mainly because only about 1 in 30 LEO rounds hit their target as a national average).

I am not some simple guy that just put that up there so I could be popular. This is my job, and my business to be updated on these things on a near daily basis. I am sorry that you miss read/misunderstood what I put up there, but you were missing the point entirely.

I'm not sure we'll get through to Gene. Trying to get people to "vote" against their pocketbook is a tough sell.

That said, as evidenced by Arizona, firearms instructors I believe will do MUCH better under constitutional carry.

Under shall issue your potential market is the 1 or 2 percent (if that) of the population that will submit to the permit.

Under constitutional carry the entire population becomes potential students for your classes AND you can teach the class as you see fit, not as the government demands.

I believe resources are better devoted to elsewhere other than trying to convince Gene German of anything. I merely posted the response to encourage people that "what Gene wishes" and what really is are not the same thing. Don't give up, don't be discouraged, keep doing what you are doing regardless of what Gene German does. He's only damaging his own reputation in Wisconsin and his future potential customers will remember.

The future is not dictated by Gene German's actions but by ours and others across wisconsin.

Here is an email I sent today to my legislators:

I have talked with them each in person before and will again soon. Anyone is welcome to use parts or all of the email to your own legislators:

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/w3asp/waml/waml.aspx

Hi Senator Lazich/Assemblyman Kuglitsch

Just wanted to pass along some information for your consideration regarding the
upcoming potential concealed carry legislation in Wisconsin.

As I'm sure you've heard, (and Mike I've spoken to you about in person) there is
a strong push for "Constitutional Carry" instead of the old "shall-issue" permit
type system other states instituted in the 90's and early 2000's.

Our organization, Wisconsin Carry has thousands of members in every county of
the state. I personally live in your district, but the constitutional carry
initiative is embraced by the vast number of folks statewide.

Wisconsin Carry, Inc (the organization I'm head of) along with the United States
Concealed Carry Association, The National Rifle Association, WI-Force (NRA state
chartered organization), Wisconsin Gun Owners, and the Tea Party Coalition, Ron
Paul's Campaign for Liberty and The Wisconsin Libertarian Party have ALL
endorsed Constitutional Carry for the upcoming legislation regarding concealed
carry. In the 2010 Republican state convention in Milwaukee, the state GOP
voted overwhelmingly to change the party platform to REMOVE the words "permit"
from their stance on the right to carry thus making the party platform conform
to constitutional carry principles.

In short, we do not believe law abiding citizens should have to pay a tax and
register with the government in order to exercise what the US Supreme Court has
now affirmed is a fundamental individual right.

This is not an extreme policy as right now 31 states allow OPEN carry without a
permit and 3 states allow concealed carry without a permit. Those numbers are
expected to grow as the tea-party backed republican wave changed legislative
composition in many states. Wisconsin has lagged behind other states for
decades. Passing "shall-issue" legislation now would take Wisconsin to where
other states WERE, not where other states are going/will be. I think Wisconsin
gun owners suffered the suffocation of their rights long enough under Doyle. I
think the people of Wisconsin lived with fewer rights than those of other states
long enough. I ask that you support legislation to give Wisconsin the same
rights those in other states enjoy and will soon enjoy.

Dozens of states are considering similar legislation. In the past 2 weeks,
Kentucky, Wyoming, and Utah, have all introduced constitutional carry type legislation.

Today, constitutional carry passed the Wyoming senate.

Here are some links to relevant news stories:

Wyoming Senate passes constitutional carry:

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...le_9ff4a116-2813-11e0-ad3a-001cc4c002e0.html

Kentucky legislator introduces constitutional carry bill.

http://www.centralkynews.com/amnews...ns-and-roads-on-min-01052011,0,5610864.story

Harmon has prefiled two bills, including one that would do away with the
requirement that gun owners get a permit for concealed carry of their weapons.
He said he is drafting the bill because the permitting is unnecessarily costly
and is counter to the intent of the Second Amendment.
“I’ve talked to many people who would like to get the (concealed carry license)
but due to the time it takes and payments that can go over $150 or $200, they
just can’t,” Harmon said. “It is a constitutional right the state law has
infringed on.”

NRA pushes for Constitutional Carry in Iowa and across the country:

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6095
Permitless/“Constitutional Carry”

Building on NRA’s “Constitutional Carry” successes in Alaska and Arizona, NRA is
making a strong push for more permitless carry/“Constitutional Carry” states
around the country, including Iowa. The proposed legislation would allow
individuals who lawfully possess firearms—meaning individuals who are not
federally prohibited from shipping, transporting, possessing, or receiving a
firearm—to either open or conceal carry without a permit.

Utah considering constitutional carry:

Permitless/“Constitutional Carry”

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700100439/Utah-lawmaker-Guns-should-be-legal-
without-permit.html

"SALT LAKE CITY — A Utah lawmaker wants to allow all state residents who can
legally have a gun carry and conceal it without a permit.

Rep. Carl Wimmer, R-Herriman, said he plans to introduce a bill to eliminate the
requirement for a state concealed weapon permit to carry a loaded gun. "
--
Here is a link to a Constitutional Carry legislative initiative flyer.
Wisconsin Carry had 40,000 of these printed up and our members in every county
of the state distributed them to gun stores, sporting goods stores, gun clubs
and ranges and other establishments where pro-freedom gun owners frequent. This
flyer details the major laws that need to be repealed/slightly altered to make
constitutional carry a reality.

http://www.wisconsincarry.org/pdf/WCI_constitutional_carry.pdf

Lastly, here is a Constitutional Carry radio commercial that we already ran in
partnership with the United States Concealed Carry Association in the Milwaukee
market on WISN during Vicki Mckenna and Charlie Sykes radio shows.

We plan to run these commercials again across the state when a bill is
introduced if it requires a permit, tax, and registration.

see the commercial on our youtube page:

www.youtube.com/wisconsincarry

I look forward to speaking with you both about the upcoming concealed carry
legislation. I recognize that Wisconsin does have other issues like jobs and
taxes, but concealed carry legislation should be a priority as well. One can
turn on the nightly news and see innocent people being victims of crime. Those
people have a right to be able to defend themselves if they so choose and the
right to carry concealed affords them that opportunity. People have lived
without the right to conceal carry in Wisconsin for centuries and hundreds,
perhaps thousands of innocent people who would have been carrying and able to
defend themselves had it been legal did not. It is a priority to change that so
no more innocent people who would have chosen to be protected are left
vulnerable.

Our organization, founded approximately ONE year ago has grown from zero to
thousands upon thousands of members in one years time. We add anywhere from 5
to 50 members per day. We have received exceptional funding and financial
support from our members. If there is any way that Wisconsin Carry can provide
the political and public relations support that would help you introduce and
pass this legislation please let me know, we have the resources to do so.

Carry On,

Nik Clark
Chairman/President - Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
New Berlin, WI 53151
nik@wisconsincarry.org
www.wisconsincarry.org

Very good letter Nik, if you don't mind I will borrow several parts to send to my own legislative representatives.

CalicoJack10 said:

The point I was making is that my fellow instructors that I have talked to have seen far too many people that a re "Stuck On Stupid" and think that having a MN non resident will automatically make them OK to carry in Wisconsin when/if this goes through in that way.

And as far as training goes for the "Pay more for WI training", that is just a matter of opinion. I already teach FREE open carry courses in Wisconsin. I have also made it very clear that if Constitutional Carry goes through I will back up the open carry courses with FREE Concealed Carry courses. The only reason these two courses would not be free is if I incur some outside fee to teach people. I already teach CCW Refreshers to LEO's for Free (Mainly because only about 1 in 30 LEO rounds hit their target as a national average)..

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I certainly hope you can back up your promise once we get a permit system. The fact is that since no bill has been submitted we do not know what states WI will recognize. Anyone who already has a MN or other permit should already be aware that in order to be exempt from the federal GFSZ law you need a permit issued by the State where the school is located. A MN permit whether resident or non-resident only covers you in MN for GFSZ. WI residents sould assume that they will HAVE to get a WI permit and that no other permit will help them stay clear of the law in WI.
That is noble that you donate your time to train others. The reality is that we will likely have a permit system and that training will incur costs to both teach and attend.