DKSuddeth
Accomplished Advocate
Heller specifically said that the right is not absolute and does provide for reasonable restrictions. This was so they can continue to ban machine guns.
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
Will Rick Perry pass open carry
- Thread starter matt dillon
- Start date
Heller specifically said that the right is not absolute and does provide for reasonable restrictions. This was so they can continue to ban machine guns.
wrightme
Regular Member
Yes, but that was not what the claim was. I am very versed in what WAS stated, and the portion I responded to is not part of the opinion.
JohnS
New member
Crop Duster for Open Carry
The "Crop Duster" flying low over "roof-tops" is not "joy riding". Being a Crop Duster for the past 32 years, I fly low because it is required as part of the job.
Open Carry should be a (Constitutional Choice under the 2nd Amendment), without restriction for law abiding citizens... How it is viewed by others dose not take my right away. The law against open carry is wrong in the state of Texas, and should be changed.
The "Crop Duster" flying low over "roof-tops" is not "joy riding". Being a Crop Duster for the past 32 years, I fly low because it is required as part of the job.
Open Carry should be a (Constitutional Choice under the 2nd Amendment), without restriction for law abiding citizens... How it is viewed by others dose not take my right away. The law against open carry is wrong in the state of Texas, and should be changed.
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
Your own imagination.
I live in WI and OC is the only legal way to carry. WI does not issue or require permits. I OC every day. People just don't notice. The only pain with OC only is in the winter. I have to tuck my winter coat behind my gun and it brings more attention to it because of that. We have a really good chance of getting cc passed next year. We are pushing to get it like AZ, VT and AK where no license is required. Even if we get it, I would probably oc for comfort and only cc when it was convenient for me.
Last edited:
JohnS
New member
It's what you get accustomed to seeing.
It's what people get accustomed to seeing. When Open Carry passes in Texas, it will be the same here as in WI, AK and AZ. It will be accepted as normal.
Your own imagination.
I live in WI and OC is the only legal way to carry. WI does not issue or require permits. I OC every day. People just don't notice. The only pain with OC only is in the winter. I have to tuck my winter coat behind my gun and it brings more attention to it because of that. We have a really good chance of getting cc passed next year. We are pushing to get it like AZ, VT and AK where no license is required. Even if we get it, I would probably oc for comfort and only cc when it was convenient for me.
It's what people get accustomed to seeing. When Open Carry passes in Texas, it will be the same here as in WI, AK and AZ. It will be accepted as normal.
billv
Regular Member
Open Carry plus concealed carry plus LEO is best crime deterant
For the following reasons:
* Law enforcement can't be everywhere at the same time
* Bad guys know that, hence crime
* BG is much less likely to OC since it draws attention to themselves
* BG seeing someone OC'ing is less likely to commit a crime
* If OC'er does need to deal with the BG, any CC'er's in the area have the OC's back
* until LEO arrives
While I prefer a more strict interpretation of "shall not be infringed", meaning licenses, fees, etc should not be required, I also have to have a more practical view today. This was not handled 200 years ago since it was more common to open carry then. It wasn't until more recent decades, in misguided attempts to control crime, that limiting access to firearms came into vogue. It didn't work. It lead to a gradual erosion of our freedoms - we lose freedoms little by little, not all at once. I want my freedom back.
Just as someone can't yell "Fire" in a theater, and hence there are some restrictions on 1A, some reasonable restrictions on 2A might be in order. The general population, knowing that someone who is OC'ing has had a background check, perhaps a (free) license, etc, should not have an issue with the OC'er.
To further support why OC should be allowed, I looked at the crime statistics from the US Census (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/law_enforcement_courts_prisons/crimes_and_crime_rates.html, 297 - Crime rates by State). The data is from 2007.
I took the states that allow OC (yellow ones on this site) and those that prohibit OC (red ones). I left out DC since it's a crime infested hell hole and would skew the results. I left out all the others too -just OC or No OC. I found the average for various crimes.
The results for violent crime follows:
Crime....................Total..Murder..Rape.Robbery..Agg.-Assult
National Average.....467.0...6.0.....30.0...148.9......284.0
Allow OC................408.6...4.6.....33.6.....96.1......274.2
Prohibit OC.............589.2...8.9.....35.9...202.6......341.7
It's fairly obvious that states that allow OC have a lower violent crime rate than those that prohibit OC. And they are also lower than the national average. States that Prohibit OC tend to have a higher rate than not only the OC states but also the National average.
For non-violent crimes:
Crime......................Total......Burglary....Larceny/Theft...Car-Theft.Total W/O Theft
National Average.......3264.0.....723.0.........2178.0............363.0.......1086.0
Allow OC..................3369.6.....650.2.........2410.5............308.9........959.1
Prohibit OC...............3638.1.....766.5.........2356.1............515.6.......1282.1
Again, except for theft, OC states have a lower rate than the national average. And those that don't are higher. The numbers for Theft can be explained by the fact that the crime is usually a crime of opportunity when no one is around to prevent it. The column on the right is the total without Theft and that follows the general pattern.
I hope that this helps get OC legal here in TX.
For the following reasons:
* Law enforcement can't be everywhere at the same time
* Bad guys know that, hence crime
* BG is much less likely to OC since it draws attention to themselves
* BG seeing someone OC'ing is less likely to commit a crime
* If OC'er does need to deal with the BG, any CC'er's in the area have the OC's back
* until LEO arrives
While I prefer a more strict interpretation of "shall not be infringed", meaning licenses, fees, etc should not be required, I also have to have a more practical view today. This was not handled 200 years ago since it was more common to open carry then. It wasn't until more recent decades, in misguided attempts to control crime, that limiting access to firearms came into vogue. It didn't work. It lead to a gradual erosion of our freedoms - we lose freedoms little by little, not all at once. I want my freedom back.
Just as someone can't yell "Fire" in a theater, and hence there are some restrictions on 1A, some reasonable restrictions on 2A might be in order. The general population, knowing that someone who is OC'ing has had a background check, perhaps a (free) license, etc, should not have an issue with the OC'er.
To further support why OC should be allowed, I looked at the crime statistics from the US Census (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/law_enforcement_courts_prisons/crimes_and_crime_rates.html, 297 - Crime rates by State). The data is from 2007.
I took the states that allow OC (yellow ones on this site) and those that prohibit OC (red ones). I left out DC since it's a crime infested hell hole and would skew the results. I left out all the others too -just OC or No OC. I found the average for various crimes.
The results for violent crime follows:
Crime....................Total..Murder..Rape.Robbery..Agg.-Assult
National Average.....467.0...6.0.....30.0...148.9......284.0
Allow OC................408.6...4.6.....33.6.....96.1......274.2
Prohibit OC.............589.2...8.9.....35.9...202.6......341.7
It's fairly obvious that states that allow OC have a lower violent crime rate than those that prohibit OC. And they are also lower than the national average. States that Prohibit OC tend to have a higher rate than not only the OC states but also the National average.
For non-violent crimes:
Crime......................Total......Burglary....Larceny/Theft...Car-Theft.Total W/O Theft
National Average.......3264.0.....723.0.........2178.0............363.0.......1086.0
Allow OC..................3369.6.....650.2.........2410.5............308.9........959.1
Prohibit OC...............3638.1.....766.5.........2356.1............515.6.......1282.1
Again, except for theft, OC states have a lower rate than the national average. And those that don't are higher. The numbers for Theft can be explained by the fact that the crime is usually a crime of opportunity when no one is around to prevent it. The column on the right is the total without Theft and that follows the general pattern.
I hope that this helps get OC legal here in TX.
Notso
Campaign Veteran
There is no 1A restriction on yelling 'Fire' in a crowded theater - remember the Bill of Rights only restrict the government, not the people. There is a restriction(law) on infringing on other peoples rights by putting them in a position to be hurt though. You can yell 'Fire', 'Bomb', 'Terrorist', 'He has a Gun', whatever in a theater - it just better be true.
billv
Regular Member
You are correct. That's what I meant, just didn't phrase it right.
cloudcroft
Campaign Veteran
"It's what people get accustomed to seeing. When Open Carry passes in Texas, it will be the same here as in WI, AK and AZ. It will be accepted as normal." -- JohnS
Well, not RIGHT AWAY as I expect it'll take a while to be seen as "normal."
The first people OCing when it becomes legal ("pathfinders" blazing a new trail in TX, if you will) will likely experience MWAG calls from frightened sheeple, occasional cop "harrassment" and such...as is usually the case when something new is being introduced as everyone doesn't get the word for a while or just plain doesn't like it (like that arrogant jerk Houston, TX, District Attorney who didn't like the relaxed "travelling" ruling).
EVENTUALLY, however, all that BS should taper-off as people -- and cops/DAs -- get used to it...whether they like it or not.
Well, not RIGHT AWAY as I expect it'll take a while to be seen as "normal."
The first people OCing when it becomes legal ("pathfinders" blazing a new trail in TX, if you will) will likely experience MWAG calls from frightened sheeple, occasional cop "harrassment" and such...as is usually the case when something new is being introduced as everyone doesn't get the word for a while or just plain doesn't like it (like that arrogant jerk Houston, TX, District Attorney who didn't like the relaxed "travelling" ruling).
EVENTUALLY, however, all that BS should taper-off as people -- and cops/DAs -- get used to it...whether they like it or not.
rushcreek2
Regular Member
Interesting numbers. Not knowing each individual OC State's data - we can't be sure if there's a general direct correlation to OC or not-or other societal factors,such as cultural, or rural vs urban population affect could be at work. The relative rarity - or at least obscurity- of "OC" creates doubt in my mind that there is an absolute DIRECT relationship.
LOGIC reinforces my personal belief that if a person is wearing a holstered handgun IN PLAIN VIEW - that person has FAR LESS probability -approaching absolute ZERO probability- of being selected by BG for a personal robbery or car-jacking.
If the "OC'ing" person fits into the LEO stereotype profile - the prospecting BG may assume, or suspect that the armed person is a LEO - which generates increased levels of discomfort that will probably result in BG considering another location in which to operate.
Question is - assuming BG wants to car-jack a vehicle- BG is poised to confront victim - at some point the proposed victim's holstered handgun is exposed in plain view to the BG. Does BG continue - or abort ?
The only reason a "rational" BG would proceed to attempt to car-jack an armed person's vehicle would be failure to see the handgun or to recognize it as being a handgun - or the BG WANTED to be involved in a SHOOT-OUT- which would defy all reason. The BG would have to be reasonably confident that the intended victim evidenced some apparent "weakness" ,or that the proposed victim lacked any situational awareness and could easily be disarmed - still a VERY HIGH RISK proposition.
Perhaps it could be helpful to consider "OC" as an art form - photography, painting, sculpting , dancing, singing, instrumental music, movies. An important element in the success of a presentation or performance of an art form is respect for audience perception. Any presentation can be "pleasing" to the eye or ear- or not. Tempo, melody, harmony, flow, sequence may be some of the elements that contribute to the "product" - or if you will - the "performance". I personally can not stand "rap music" - and I am inclined to invoke my right to react prejudicially whenever I am exposed to its in-your-face, loud, and generally agitating tempo and lyrics. I guess it boils down to a matter of TASTE - or LACK thereof.
Why might this comparison be important? The EFFECTIVENESS of "OC" - whether or not it achieves the DESIRED goals (?) -contributes to a reduction in the incidence of crime, and furthers respect for the right to carry, etc.
LOGIC reinforces my personal belief that if a person is wearing a holstered handgun IN PLAIN VIEW - that person has FAR LESS probability -approaching absolute ZERO probability- of being selected by BG for a personal robbery or car-jacking.
If the "OC'ing" person fits into the LEO stereotype profile - the prospecting BG may assume, or suspect that the armed person is a LEO - which generates increased levels of discomfort that will probably result in BG considering another location in which to operate.
Question is - assuming BG wants to car-jack a vehicle- BG is poised to confront victim - at some point the proposed victim's holstered handgun is exposed in plain view to the BG. Does BG continue - or abort ?
The only reason a "rational" BG would proceed to attempt to car-jack an armed person's vehicle would be failure to see the handgun or to recognize it as being a handgun - or the BG WANTED to be involved in a SHOOT-OUT- which would defy all reason. The BG would have to be reasonably confident that the intended victim evidenced some apparent "weakness" ,or that the proposed victim lacked any situational awareness and could easily be disarmed - still a VERY HIGH RISK proposition.
Perhaps it could be helpful to consider "OC" as an art form - photography, painting, sculpting , dancing, singing, instrumental music, movies. An important element in the success of a presentation or performance of an art form is respect for audience perception. Any presentation can be "pleasing" to the eye or ear- or not. Tempo, melody, harmony, flow, sequence may be some of the elements that contribute to the "product" - or if you will - the "performance". I personally can not stand "rap music" - and I am inclined to invoke my right to react prejudicially whenever I am exposed to its in-your-face, loud, and generally agitating tempo and lyrics. I guess it boils down to a matter of TASTE - or LACK thereof.
Why might this comparison be important? The EFFECTIVENESS of "OC" - whether or not it achieves the DESIRED goals (?) -contributes to a reduction in the incidence of crime, and furthers respect for the right to carry, etc.
Last edited:
Texas law is more relaxed than federal law concerning machine guns, short-barrelled rifles/shotguns & silencers. By Texas law, a firearm can actually fire 2-rd bursts and is still not considered a machine gun. TX's only catch for plain old civilians like me is that you follow the NFA requirements. Well you have to do that anyway, else it's a federal crime...
That being said, lots of LEO's don't know much about NFA. I used to keep it and TX gun laws in my truck and have shown the pertinent sections to avoid arrest before.
