Attn:KY, OH, TN, residents. My rights were violated tonight.

[RussP]

A friend of mine with Lexington PD provided some information about why the customer in P.P.B. that night brought JT44mag to store management's attention.

Back on March 5, 2009, there was a murder in the parking lot directly in front of that P.P.B. which received a whole lot of media attention.

http://www.heraldleaderphoto.com/2009/03/06/shooting-suspect-apprehended/

The shooter's trial ended the night before JT44mag visited the bookstore. Again, there was significant media coverage of the trial and verdict which refreshed peoples memories of where it took place.

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/15/...urder-trial-continues.html#storylink=misearch

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/16/1636415/lasure-to-homicide-detectives.html#storylink=misearch

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/17/...nues-in-lasure-murder.html#storylink=misearch

Perhaps JT44mag could revisit the store and talk with the manager on duty the night of his incident and talk about why, after all the other times he'd opened carried there, they chose to call the cops that night.

 

[KYGlockster]

A friend of mine with Lexington PD provided some information about why the customer in P.P.B. that night brought JT44mag to store management's attention.

Back on March 5, 2009, there was a murder in the parking lot directly in front of that P.P.B. which received a whole lot of media attention.

http://www.heraldleaderphoto.com/2009/03/06/shooting-suspect-apprehended/

The shooter's trial ended the night before JT44mag visited the bookstore. Again, there was significant media coverage of the trial and verdict which refreshed peoples memories of where it took place.

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/15/...urder-trial-continues.html#storylink=misearch

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/16/1636415/lasure-to-homicide-detectives.html#storylink=misearch

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/02/17/...nues-in-lasure-murder.html#storylink=misearch

Perhaps JT44mag could revisit the store and talk with the manager on duty the night of his incident and talk about why, after all the other times he'd opened carried there, they chose to call the cops that night.

So this is a reason to treat someone unlawfully when you are supposed to be upholding the law>>>??? There are murders all the time with firearms, does that mean every leo should have the right to stop me for suspicion of being a murderer, simply because I am exercising a constitutional right granted to me by the U.S.A and Kentucky??? You said the trial ENDED the day before he was illegally detained, so therefore he couldnt have been the one who committed this murder, therefore that is not a basis to stop anyone. Even if the murderer hadnt been apprehended yet, they still have no right to detain someone for simply openly carrying a firearm.

 

[RussP]

A friend of mine with Lexington PD provided some information about why the customer in P.P.B. that night brought JT44mag to store management's attention....

The shooter's trial ended the night before JT44mag visited the bookstore. Again, there was significant media coverage of the trial and verdict which refreshed peoples memories of where it took place.
...

Perhaps JT44mag could revisit the store and talk with the manager on duty the night of his incident and talk about why, after all the other times he'd opened carried there, they chose to call the cops that night.

So this is a reason to treat someone unlawfully when you are supposed to be upholding the law>>>??? There are murders all the time with firearms, does that mean every leo should have the right to stop me for suspicion of being a murderer, simply because I am exercising a constitutional right granted to me by the U.S.A and Kentucky??? You said the trial ENDED the day before he was illegally detained, so therefore he couldnt have been the one who committed this murder, therefore that is not a basis to stop anyone. Even if the murderer hadnt been apprehended yet, they still have no right to detain someone for simply openly carrying a firearm.

KYGlockster, my post was about why the customer might have been motivated to tell PPB management about a man with a gun. That was the root of the problem, wasn't it, a customer complained?

Wouldn't you like to hear why the call was made?

 

[RussP]

The cops are supposed to enforce the law not violate a persons rights just because some twit is whining about a murder that happend a long time ago and was committed by some other person.
The fact remain that JT44mag was not doing anything that was any business of government busy bodies. The police should not be enforcing store policy, especially a policy that may not even exist.

Perhaps JT44mag should bring JJB management and the police together to discuss that. sudden valley gunner suggested something similar earlier in the thread.

Maybe try contacting or writing the manager or corporate first. Many places have made sure their managers/employees are well aware that their store does not ban after incidents.

I would suggest still following up on this you might end up pleasantly surprised that the manager or corporation might welcome you back with your guns.

I did this with Wal-mart had a wholehearted apology from the manager, who was very disappointed his employees had asked me to leave. I get nothing but smiles and great service now.

Doing so might improve relations all around.

 

[RussP]

Maybe a group hug would make everyone feel better and that would solve everything.

Why do you believe sitting down with the store management and/or Lexington PD to discuss details of the incident would not be beneficial? Or do I not understand your post.

 

[langzaiguy]

Russ, I don't think either the store or the PD would give us time of day. The store can and will exclude people as they wish. Unless there's an underlying relationship you have with either entity, it's probably a fruitless endeavor. They don't want our business; let's go elsewhere.

 

[RussP]

Russ, I don't think either the store or the PD would give us time of day. The store can and will exclude people as they wish. Unless there's an underlying relationship you have with either entity, it's probably a fruitless endeavor. They don't want our business; let's go elsewhere.

I was thinking the store might, if for no other reason, just because Mrs. JT44mag was their manager for a number of years. That's an advantage , I think. Depends on how they parted company.

Now, Lexington PD, I believe there are questions about what happened that night which JT44mag hasn't answered. I'll reserve comment until he gives those details.

 

[RussP]

A friend of mine took this photo of the front door of the JBB store this morning.

 

[Ponch]

A friend of mine took this photo of the front door of the JBB store this morning.

Was that there all along, or did they put it up after this incident? And is that the same entrance the OP used?

 

[RussP]

Was that there all along, or did they put it up after this incident? And is that the same entrance the OP used?

That is the front entrance off of the main parking lot. Two additional signs are posted at the entrances on the lower level. My guy says they were in place in December at Christmas, the last time he was at the store.

 

[protect our rights]

The signs are of no difference. It doesn't make it a crime if there is a sign that say's no guns and you bring your gun in. They can only make him leave. The crime is when and IF he DOESN'T leave. The cops are still in the wrong.

 

[neuroblades]

Was that there all along, or did they put it up after this incident? And is that the same entrance the OP used?

Yes, I remember seeing this sign when I had to go to this same bookstore on 12/23/10. I was carrying concealed that night as well and though I was looking for signs, I'd heard they were extremely Anti-Gun previously. I just went on in and got what I needed and left. I was carrying both, my EDC weapon and my BUG as well and had no issue.

Even though I stand behind JT's carry, the removal of the jacket just made it all the more noticable and unfortunately drew the attention of someone that was in there that evening.

Personally, I try not to do what I call, "Shift Carry", meaning that my sidearm is initially concealed and then I remove my concealing garment making in open carried. I only open carry when I'm in the mood to educate my fellow Kentuckians, otherwise, I stay concealed for the most part.

I look forward to hearing the outcome of this issue though, hopefully JT will get some form of apologu from JB but I won'y hold my breath, they are very liberal and left-wing politically.

 

[Liberty4Ever]

I just checked Barnes & Noble Booksellers at Hamburg Pavilion in Lexington, and they still have no firearms signs posted... but they do have free WiFi!

Vote with your money. I prefer not to patronize anti-gun establishments. If they don't want me carrying there, I'll generally respect that. It's their property, and their right to decide what happens there. If I went to Joseph Beth and I was in a hurry and needed something and saw their gun buster sign, I'd probably carry concealed, quickly make my dire purchase and leave, but I wouldn't open carry there, and I'd make a mental note to add them to my list of businesses where I no longer shop. I might email the manager later to explain that their policy cost them another customer.

The more serious issue here is the manager calling the police without the courtesy of first explaining their store policy to their law abiding customer and resolving this without the force of government. The MOST serious issue is the police showing up in force to act as paid security guards to enforce a store policy, and treating a law abiding citizen like a criminal. If there is any truth to them saying that this is Lexington and only concealed carry is allowed here, then this is a very serious matter indeed. Our solution must be more education. I recommend open carry litter pickups on Richmond Road, and open carry picnics in Jacobson Park. Any other ideas anyone cares to share? I have one other idea to help educate the public and the police about the law and our rights, and I'll be contacting many of you guys by private email in a few months, or maybe discussing the concept at the next open carry picnic.

 

[KYGlockster]

Go to Borders book store. They do not have no firearms signs, and I have never had anything said to me for OCing. Except and employee asking me if I was a cop, and then me explaining KY law to him. He was pleased to learn of our right to open carry.

 

[ixtow]

I don't know how the laws in KY differ from those in AL, but in AL, the police cannot trespass you.

During my LEO encounter at Target a few months back, the police tried to tell me that they were going to trespass me from Target. I told the officers that they did not have that authority. When their supervisor came out, she tried to tell me that I was being trespassed. Again, I informed her that she could not do that, that only the owner or his agent had the authority to trespass me. The officers could only document the trespass. She did not believe me. I referred her to the code. She couldn't find the appropriate section in her copy of the code. I told her that I could find it in a few seconds. She wouldn't let me.

However, she caved and called the manager over. The manager called corporate, and corporate told him, in no uncertain terms, that he could not trespass me.

I said all that to say this: Unless KY law allows the police to tell you to get out, you can (and should) demand that the manager come over and tell you to get out. He likely won't have the guts to do so on his own authority and will call corporate.

Only a finite number of things can happen:

1. The manager calls corporate, and corporate says to kick you out. Now you can rightly say that the chain is anti-carry.

2. The manager calls corporate, and corporate instructs him to welcome you. Tell the cops good night.

3. The manager does not call, still kicks you out, and does so against corporate policy. You'd have to call corporate to find out that he was wrong. The manager gets into trouble for kicking you out, and you come back and carry.

4. The manager does not call, still kicks you out, and that is in accord with corporate policy. See #1, but the manager may yet get into trouble for not checking.

5. The manager does not call, and allows you to stay. Wish the officers a good night, and don't press the issue further with corporate.

The action that provides the least chance of a positive outcome is to let the officers tell you to leave. That lets corporate and the manager off the hook. I think that, in order to hold them accountable, we must leave the manager and corporate on the hook. Make one of them choose to kick you out.

I find it interesting that you always advocate against pressing the issue; except when you're doing it. I've watched you rant at people for exactly this same thing.

You've been called out. I'm sure you'll dismiss it with insult, like usual...

 

[RussP]

Since ixtow brought this up again, JT44mag, did you ever go back and talk with the store manager to find out why exactly they called the police?

 

[KYGlockster]

I find it interesting that you always advocate against pressing the issue; except when you're doing it. I've watched you rant at people for exactly this same thing.

You've been called out. I'm sure you'll dismiss it with insult, like usual...

KY law is the same. The manager has to tell leo that they no longer want you there for them to tell you if you come back they will arrest you for trespassing. On the firearms side of things, KY has much better laws than alabama, but private prop. is just that, if they dont want you there, that should be respected, just take our business elsewhere, like I said, Go to Borders.

 

[CharleyCherokee]

Couldn't start a new thread, but this is along the same lines kind of.

I have been searching rulings on illegal search and seizure. I'm wondering if LEO's can pretty well circumvent our protection by arresting us for let's say disorderly conduct and then releasing us after they process us or whatever, or perhaps the DA drops the case because there is no evidence or not enough to stick the charge. I'm guessing that LEO's can get away with a search using a tactic such as this, and even though it's completely baseless they get away with their search under the color of law. Does anyone know of a ruling on any situation such as this? As an aside, why can't I start a new topic?

 

[langzaiguy]

@Charley--I'd do a search within the KY forum on 'disorderly conduct'. In KY, DC means one not only being disorderly but INTENDING to be. Someone exercising their rights is not intending to disturb anyone. An arrest or detainment regarding OC is a legal liability for LEOs--and there have been successful lawsuits for just that.

 

[UnfetteredMight]

@Charley--I'd do a search within the KY forum on 'disorderly conduct'. In KY, DC means one not only being disorderly but INTENDING to be. Someone exercising their rights is not intending to disturb anyone. An arrest or detainment regarding OC is a legal liability for LEOs--and there have been successful lawsuits for just that.

The act must also not serve a legitimate purpose, as per the wording in the KRS.

Obviously SD is a legitimate purpose.

No worries Charley.