Occupy...?

[gogodawgs]

Do we? Do THEY? "Peaceable assembly" is one thing, but how does that cover denying the rest of the public THEIR right to also assemble in or otherwise use that space?

If you have to move aside, protest in a 'free speech' zone, then how do you put pressure on the government to change? What does free speech, the right to assemble and redress your government mean if you are going to be bullied by out of the way by the government?

 

[Jim675]

Please read this thread carefully.
You have one side saying "commie", "crime", "enemy".
And the other side saying "right to assemble", "opportunity to educate", "wide variety of views".

No one has argued that some OWS'ers have not committed crimes or that many subscribe to wealth-redistribution schemes.

You're upset that some of them are ignorant. You're upset that anyone would consider alleviating some of the ignorance of a few of them.

I had one good conversation yesterday, and several where their rhetoric had already crystallized over their own ears. No one got mad.

 

[gogodawgs]

<snip>
You have one side saying "commie", "crime", "enemy".
And the other side saying "right to assemble", "opportunity to educate", "wide variety of views".

Actually I am saying both. Pinko, commie, maggot infested, dope smoking, hippie...... with a right to assemble, peaceably.

 

[Metalhead47]

If you have to move aside, protest in a 'free speech' zone, then how do you put pressure on the government to change? What does free speech, the right to assemble and redress your government mean if you are going to be bullied by out of the way by the government?

Where are you getting this "free speech zone" from what I said? I merely said that EVERYONE has the same right to assemble in or use a public space. When they are intentionally blocking access to a public space, that is denying other people the right to use that space. It has nothing to do with the government at that point. I have as much right to go down & enjoy Westlake center or enter a public building as they do. Yes, they are free to stand out there and redress the gov't all they want. Trampling on others' rights to do the same, they are not.

 

[gogodawgs]

Where are you getting this "free speech zone" from what I said? I merely said that EVERYONE has the same right to assemble in or use a public space. When they are intentionally blocking access to a public space, that is denying other people the right to use that space. It has nothing to do with the government at that point. I have as much right to go down & enjoy Westlake center or enter a public building as they do. Yes, they are free to stand out there and redress the gov't all they want. Trampling on others' rights to do the same, they are not.

The government has said the same thing. That in order to facilitate the rights of both parties, a 'free speech zone' will be set up out of the way. Thus mitigating the pressure put on the government to actually change.

If the OCDO movement wants to circle the US Capitol and block entry to pressure actual change, then it must be allowed. The OWS are not trampling on others rights by blocking entrance to a public building, unless there is a compelling need to enjoy Westlake. There is no requirement for them to stand. Is there a compelling need for me to enjoy Westlake? No.

Note: Again, I support nothing about OWS. The protesters that are not camping, squatting, damaging property can assemble there day and night. If their ideas do not ring with the public then they will fade into the past.

 

[Metalhead47]

The government has said the same thing. That in order to facilitate the rights of both parties, a 'free speech zone' will be set up out of the way. Thus mitigating the pressure put on the government to actually change.

If the OCDO movement wants to circle the US Capitol and block entry to pressure actual change, then it must be allowed. The OWS are not trampling on others rights by blocking entrance to a public building, unless there is a compelling need to enjoy Westlake. There is no requirement for them to stand. Is there a compelling need for me to enjoy Westlake? No.

Note: Again, I support nothing about OWS. The protesters that are not camping, squatting, damaging property can assemble there day and night. If their ideas do not ring with the public then they will fade into the past.

And in nothing I said did I in any way advocate a "free speech zone.". I'm just saying, they can't block the sidewalk or take up residence on public property. I say they ARE trampling other's rights by doing so. I would not support OCDO doing the same thing either. Just look at everything the tea party has accomplished, with mass demonstrations, WITHOUT blocking access or even inconveniencing people not involved with their grievances.


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[Jim675]

SNIP... Just look at everything the tea party has accomplished, with mass demonstrations, WITHOUT blocking access or even inconveniencing people not involved with their grievances. ...SNIP

One of thousands of pics of Tea Partiers blocking streets and sidewalks. OK for me but not for thee?
Selective perception and selective exposure.

 

[Metalhead47]

One of thousands of pics of Tea Partiers blocking streets and sidewalks. OK for me but not for thee?
Selective perception and selective exposure.

View attachment 7477

no, it's not. I don't seem to remember any pix of tea partyers getting into physical confrontations with police, getting pepper sprayed, arrested, etc. You're latching onto one small thing I say & twisting it around.


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[amzbrady]

Did I miss a posted link to the 14 minutes of video, I cant seem to find the whole 14 minutes showing prior to the pepperspray?

 

[Jim675]

no, it's not. I don't seem to remember any pix of tea partyers getting into physical confrontations with police, getting pepper sprayed, arrested, etc. You're latching onto one small thing I say & twisting it around.


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You've repeatedly said that merely blocking or inconveniencing others was not acceptable and TPers did not do so.

 

[Metalhead47]

You've repeatedly said that merely blocking or inconveniencing others was not acceptable and TPers did not do so.

Gathering in a large public square is a very different thing from INTENTIONALLY blocking access to a specific place by sitting with linked arms, blocking motorways, etc.


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[j4l]

The things that strike me as the most bizzare in any of this-no matter what side one takes on the matter- is that anyone with 2 living brain cells is giving these "protesters" a moment's thought at all these days.

It's the 21st century, for Christ's sake.
In America.
We are'nt repressed goat-herders or rock-farmers in some 3rd or 4th -world hellhole in Africa, or the Middle East.
As FUBAR as things are around here these days, we still arent as bad off as about 2/3rd's of the rest of the world, by a long-shot. (granted here, as over there, most of the FUBAR'ing is entirely SELF-INFLICTED,to begin with...)

Have our people not evolved in their methods of "making a statement" or just plain protesting to be protesting (even if half of those protesting anything could actually articulate WHAT they are protesting...) beyond 1960's tactics?
With modern tech, communications and the internet, are there not more effective ways of "getting a message" out, than standing out in the streets making an ass of ones' self?

Do these folks actually think most of us see them out there and stop and think to ourselves "wow, those folks are SAYING something...perhaps I should listen.." ???
No, most of us roll our eyes, and maybe hang around a minute or two hoping to see some tear-gassing begin....or at least think to ourselves, "what a bunch of idiots.."

Local example though: Some local yahoos and "doh! I totally missed-out on that cool-looking 60's/hippie thing" types tried to get this OWS crap started at a couple of locations around here. It fizzled before it could even get off the ground.
About 15 or so people showed up at the "occupation location" stood around for a few minutes, visibly dissappointed at their lack of numbers and effect, going "wtf, where IS everyone?".
Passerby honked thier horns and gave them the finger, almost universally, until they packed it in and sauntered off to wherever dejected hippy wannabes go..(poetry reading? yoga class? their kid's soccer game? who knows..)

The whole thing- whatever "good intentions" Im sure some of them feel like they have, just strikes me as pathetic.
If I were the Yemeni goat-molester protesting in his situation, reading about this on google, I'd be shaking my head in wonder/...

 

[Jim675]

Gathering in a large public square is a very different thing from INTENTIONALLY blocking access to a specific place by sitting with linked arms, blocking motorways, etc.

And the TP folks blocking a major public street that forces all traffic elsewhere had no idea they were causing others to be inconvenienced?

Again, and again, I'm not saying OWS is a good thing nor that TP is bad. I'm saying the hyperbolic demonization is over the top.

If we feel the OWSers are ignorant then why not support those who try to educate again?

 

[Schlepnier]

Gathering in a large public square is a very different thing from INTENTIONALLY blocking access to a specific place by sitting with linked arms, blocking motorways, etc.


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Not to mention the fact that in most cases you are required to have a permit to hold a rally or protest march or hell even a parade because it does inconvinience people so the city must have a heads up to work around it......in all cases the tea party has done so legally and OWS has mostly not.

But now we are focusingon straw men arguments again.....back to the original thrust of this post

1.OWS are the enemies of the constitution and our liberties.

2.They are started, funded, and supported by commies and marxist socialist, intent on destroying our system of governance. this fact is irrefutable.

3.To stand with them under the guise of the 1st ammendmant is folley for any of us who hold our rights dear. marxist revolutions ALWAYS end in violence and you bring the second ammendmant defenders down through guilt by association.

4.Understand that civil disobediance is BREAKING THE LAW by definition. as such these groups following this illegal course, rather than a more constructive and legal political course as the tea party did, they deserve exactly what they get with their "peaceful protests" i have no sympathy, concern or support for them. in fact i think the law enforcement community has gone exceptionally light on them given the amount of illegal activity they have shown to be involved in.


I say stay away and watch them self destruct from a safe distance.

 

[Schlepnier]

And the TP folks blocking a major public street that forces all traffic elsewhere had no idea they were causing others to be inconvenienced?

Again, and again, I'm not saying OWS is a good thing nor that TP is bad. I'm saying the hyperbolic demonization is over the top.

If we feel the OWSers are ignorant then why not support those who try to educate again?

They are not just ignorant, they a rapid, brainwashed and led like sheeple. they are true believers.
your better off trying to argue your second ammenmant rights with Sarah brady.

 

[j4l]

Let's take this line by line, because I'm not seeing a whole lot of socialism here (my definition of socialism is the mass transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor)



Glass-Steagall was enacted in the 30's in order to separate Investment Banking from Commercial/Retail operations. It was repealed in the 90's during the Clinton administration. Clinton wasn't necessarily a pure socialist, but he did lean that way. Seems weird that they would want to have a law reinstated that one of their own worked to repeal.



I can't see socialism here either - asking the Congress to, you know, get Federal agencies to actually enforce the law seems to me to be pretty ideologially neutral.



Have no idea where the socialism is here.



OK, I can see it here. That said, nobody can deny that the fact that the 400 wealthiest Americans paid an average of 18% of their income in taxes when the top bracket is set at (I think) 39%. Something seems a little off about that. Buffett is just about the least likely person to be called a socialist. He doesn't even pay dividends to his shareholders, of which I am one.



Where's the socialism here? The SEC is supposed to stop things like the credit crash and its aftermath. I'd say that they failed, and a rational act would be to fire the people who screwed up.



Is taking the money out of politics so that perhaps politicians would listen to the voices of their constituents, instead of their contributors, socialism?



This seems like something that is a no-brainer. Boeing (translation - clearly not socialists) has a rule that their former employees are not allowed to work for their suppliers for two years or so.



This seems like the elimination of regulation.

And this is just the short-list of the like-minded at a couple of the OWS events..



http://ruckus.org/section.php?id=84

 

[Roy Hobbs]

There have been precisely 2 official statements by Occupy Wall Street.

This is the second one, and is relevant to the discussion of who is running these things.

http://www.nycga.net/resources/statement-of-autonomy/

 

[Metalhead47]

There have been precisely 2 official statements by Occupy Wall Street.

This is the second one, and is relevant to the discussion of who is running these things.

http://www.nycga.net/resources/statement-of-autonomy/

Ah huh. And you actually believe them when they say anything? Like the brady bunch doesn't actually want to outlaw guns and restrict us from carrying, they just want "common sense gun laws."

 

[Schlepnier]

There have been precisely 2 official statements by Occupy Wall Street.

This is the second one, and is relevant to the discussion of who is running these things.

http://www.nycga.net/resources/statement-of-autonomy/

Roy.......
:banghead:


BELIEVE THEM WHEN THEY SPEAK OPENLY, not when they release a sanitised press release.

If you watched any of the videos i posted the truth about who is really running
things is obvious and stated in their own words. both van jones a self proclaimed communist, former obama green jobs czar, former head of STORM, and current head of the socialist group "retake the american dream" has been instramental in organising OWS from the start. as has stephen learner from the SEIU. there is a 2 hour long show on who is really running things behind the scenes in my links

Guess who is funding the paper-occupied wallstreet journal?
george soros (a billionare proponant of a one world borderless socialist government and charged economic terrorist in malasia) through his various action commities like the tides foundation and center for american progress. micheal moore...just to name a few.


How many times whill you look past the communists, socialists, nazis, and islamic militants involved?
How long will you stick your fingers in your ears and ignore the piles of evidence both written and in video form from the OWS organisers and members own mouths before you realise how dangerous this movement is to our country, our constitution, and our liberty?

I am starting to feel like a modern Dietrich Bonhoeffer warning people about hitler and his national socialist party(nazi).

 

[j4l]

Roy.......
:banghead:


BELIEVE THEM WHEN THEY SPEAK OPENLY, not when they release a sanitised press release.

If you watched any of the videos i posted the truth about who is really running
things is obvious and stated in their own words. both van jones a self proclaimed communist, former obama green jobs czar, former head of STORM, and current head of the socialist group "retake the american dream" has been instramental in organising OWS from the start. as has stephen learner from the SEIU. there is a 2 hour long show on who is really running things behind the scenes in my links

Guess who is funding the paper-occupied wallstreet journal?
george soros (a billionare proponant of a one world borderless socialist government and charged economic terrorist in malasia) through his various action commities like the tides foundation and center for american progress. micheal moore...just to name a few.


How many times whill you look past the communists, socialists, nazis, and islamic militants involved?
How long will you stick your fingers in your ears and ignore the piles of evidence both written and in video form from the OWS organisers and members own mouths before you realise how dangerous this movement is to our country, our constitution, and our liberty?

I am starting to feel like a modern Dietrich Bonhoeffer warning people about hitler and his national socialist party(nazi).

Lost cause,bro. Those of us who "get it" just get it. The rest are either too dense, in denial, or sympathizing with the enemy.