Quick question...

FI is correct in his statements even though to you it may be a tough chew to swallow. The Wisconsin Castle doctrine does not provide for presumption of innocence while out in public.You were outside your vehicle so you were not protected by the Castle Doctrine. You would still have had to prove privilege of defense if the event would have escalated to use of deadly force. To prove self defense you must convince the courts that you were in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death. The fact you were insulted and the youths were walking towards you without weapons would raise many questions in court. You mentioned if you had afew more seconds you may have loaded your firearm. If loaded what may you have done then. We made enormous gains in firearm freedom last year, but the Wisconsin courts still take use of deadly force very serious.

FI is also correct that your actions could be seen as provocation if the encounter had become ugly. Shouting profanities in public could be seen as disorderly conduct as well. Standing with an unholstered firearm in your hand (doesn't matter if it's loaded or unloaded) could be seen as a violation of state law that reads it is unlawful to intentionally point a firearm at another individual. Sometimes it's difficult to "count to ten", especially if a loved one is involved, but if the action is only words, sometimes count to ten we must.

What should you do First; read the latest state firearm laws, especially those enumerated in 11Act35. Also read the latest version of ss167.31. It is no longer unlawful to carry a visible loaded handgun in a vehicle (as of Nov. 19, 2011). Second; get a concealed carry license. If you have a clean background it's easy to do. Makes life a lot easier when carrying in a vehicle or near schools. More than likely the very sight of a holstered handgun on your hip would have sent the scum packing without need of you saying any words. Third; be aware of which businesses are gun friendly. Walmart is one of them. You did not need to place your gun in the trunk of your vehicle before entering WalMart. Fourth; (and this applies to all of us) Do not carry a firearm around for decoration. This is serious business.

Finally, I'm glad this incident resolved peacefully. I hope luck is on your side and you grow very old without experiencing another.

newbie said:

You think three guys talking crap to a complete stranger would drop it of I kept on going doing what I was?

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They didn't run towards you until you said something, so yeah.

Is that a guarantee they wouldn't have still ran at you? No. But not swearing back at them would have had a higher probability of them not running at you.

Basically, if you're willing to pull out a gun, you don't get the luxury of being pissed off just because someone says mean words.

I think pulling it out as they ran at you was the right thing to do, though.

+1 Firearms Instructor

Firearms Iinstuctor said:

Yes very much you escalated things by telling them to "shut the f--kup"

Having delt with dozens of situations like this I can tell you, you escalated it.

The bet way to handle this type of situation is to ignore them but keep a very watchfull eye on them if the continue to talk let them. If they move in closer and look like they are going to attack good command language. While prepareing to defend oneself not only lets them know you will not go easy but also sets up a good legal defense if you have to hurt them.

Its amazeing how much a judge or jury loves to hear that you gave them a out before you did what you needed to do.

I told them to stop, I told them to leave me alone. I told them to back off. When they continued to press their attack I had no choice but to------- fill in the blank.

Useing profane language will get you nothing good. The bad guys, the cops,the judge and jury see that as nothing but escalating.

Wittnesses can be very usefull they heard you say stop leave me alone or they heard Shut the **** up.

What to yo want them to hear.

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+1 - there Firearms Instructor!

@Newbie - I too am a firearms instructor and agree completely that your statement had the potential to be seen as inflammatory by police or a jury. However, it did not justify the other men rushing you - potentially to attack you. Still, as FI points out above, it would have been better if those words had never been uttered. I understand your desire to think yourself justified, but in truth, it really would have been better to not have responded to their taunts.

The bottom line is that you displayed a handgun and the potential attackers dispersed. In my opinion, you did the right thing, but could have done it much better.

Like FI, I teach my students to use loud words of defense such as "Stop", "Don't come any closer", "Leave me alone", if time and circumstances allow and preferably within hearing distance of potential witnesses. If you have to use deadly force to defend yourself or others, it is best if you have "clean hands".

The phrase that I often use in class is: Life in danger - shoot the stranger. No danger yet, you better get - the Police. Unless the danger to self or others is imminent and real, it really is best to allow the Police to earn their pay. Now I will ask the question that others have not - did you report this incident to the proper authorities? After all, the bad guys could tell Police that you assaulted them with a handgun when they were minding their own business.

Yellow Cat Out -

Interceptor_Knight said:

"Defending your honor" because someone said something you did not like is not a justifiable reason to use force.

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DangerClose said:

not swearing back at them would have had a higher probability of them not running at you.
...you don't get the luxury of being pissed off just because someone says mean words.

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newbie said:

wouldnt stop talking crap and making a ton of Mexican jokes at me...
it wasn't bothering me too much until they said something about my [strike]prego[/strike] pregnant wife...
when [strike]there[/strike] their words started to target her I got pissed off...
I know i was wrong to say something but it was just them pushing so much to get a rise out of us.

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So? They're talking. Nothing they say is an imminent threat to your lives, especially if they weren't close enough to do anything about it.
When they escalated to running toward you, THAT was a threat.
(I would like to have seen the skid marks they left in their haste to run away.)

if the police were there that I would be fined and maybe have lost my gun.
...I told them to shut the f up, and that it could be taken as provoking them.

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In Milwaukee, definitely the first.
Anywhere, definitely the second.

IK said:

Your best bet is to ignore words other than direct physical threats but keep a close eye on where they are. Most of the time they will get bored and walk away. If you stare them down or otherwise negatively react you are encouraging this animal behavior because they are getting their intended result.

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What he said.

DangerClose said:

Men don't get to "defend a woman's honor" like in the old days. You increasing the tension of the situation just because you got pissed off at them saying words to her helped bring about them coming closer and you pulling a gun. Your wife wasn't in any real danger until you escalated things.

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And what he said.

newbie said:

You think I escalated things that far by telling them to shut up.
You think three guys talking crap to a complete stranger would drop it if I kept on doing what I was?

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Yes, and yes.
They wanted a reaction. You gave them one.
They may have come at you anyway, but you guaranteed that they would.

Last Friday afternoon I was targeted by a pack of about 15 feral urban ethnic youth, just a couple houses away from my home.
I had slowed at the intersection to check for traffic, they saw me, one started running at me, & was close enough he could have reached me if I hadn't sped up.
I am positive that if I'd done anything other than speed up he would have managed to knock me over & they would have all been on me & my motorcycle.
But it looked like I ignored them completely - other than looking that way to check for traffic I didn't even look at them (that they could tell... peripheral vision is a wonderful thing).
Actually, I was a little surprised they didn't follow to my house & come up the driveway at me. That would have been painful for them.

Packer fan said:

you simply used the best way you could to defuse.

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Problem was, he escalated first.

many laws are written so that once you pull a firearm you have to use said firearm or it's brandishing.

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Not WI laws.
a) there's no such thing as brandishing
b) 939.48 allows the threat of any force, or the use of non-deadly force, in self-defense.
In order to use deadly force, one must be in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.

A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person.
The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference.
The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.

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Standing with an unholstered firearm in your hand (doesn't matter if it's loaded or unloaded) could be seen as a violation of state law that reads it is unlawful to intentionally point a firearm at another individual.

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In hand /= pointing
And it's lawful if that show of force is used to stop an attack ("unlawful interference").

Captain Nemo said:

The fact you were insulted and the youths were walking towards you without weapons would raise many questions in court.

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I don't think the disparity of force would have been questioned, especially considering his stated medical condition.
But him escalating would be a problem.

167.31 It is no longer unlawful to carry a visible loaded handgun in a vehicle (as of Nov. 19, 2011).

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167.31 changed for pistols as of 01NOV11.
Long guns were allowed to be unencased (as long as they're unloaded) as of 19NOV.

Maybe i was in the wrong for cussing at them. I dot want to sound like a tard and justifie myself. But I'll try to paint a better picture.

About 6pm Walmart parking lot.

I leave the store my wife not feeling good she's leaning against the passenger side of the car door open because the car was baking hot.
I'm unloading a packed cart into the car. Right across the row like te vary next row there truck and my car was the gap between rows. I get about 1/4th of the cart into the trunk. I hear the first comment. I look blow it off, then the others joined in. Now all of them are saying crap and talking over each other. Still standing at there truck I'm about 1/2 way done loading the food in the trunk. I start to relies these guys are not doing it for fun. I pull the keys from the trunk lock to access my gun safe box in the trunk. At this point I still have not opened the box. They start saying stuff to my wife about being a race traitor and some other crap about how she should be with a white man. Now they are all targeting her. I have the key to my box in my hand. I say shut the f up. They rush at me. I unlocked that box so fast at this point with only sec to spare.

Now I do have my ccl thanks to the guys on this site and I do iv and cc this is one of the days I did not carry .

I am outdoors a lot so I do keep a spare gun in a lock box in my trunk.

Sorry but you are trying very hard to justifie yourself.

You have been given some very good advise learn from it.

Getting into a p-ssing match over words with some jerks is a very good way to end up in trouble.

Unless some one is going to lay hands/ weapons on I could care less what they say.

Until afterwards

Then Let their words and actions be used against them and your words and actions used for you.

I could care less if it was Walmart, a bar,or the street in front of the police station.

Useing profane lauage is not a good way to get out of a bad situation but a good way to get into one.

I Know I did the correct thing, I'm not trying to ask you guys to justifie it for me. I did what I had to do. If you can't pull your firearm you guys are walking around with a fancy fashion Accessory then. I keep mine for safety, if I want a nice watch I'll ware one not a gun...

That's pretty much what I'm hearing from you guys. Not to sound like a ******* but that's what you guys are showing here. Simply because I told them to shut up your saying I was in the wrong. And that by saying to shut the **** up that is provoking them to the point of a fight? Now let me ask you, have you ever told someone to shut up and simply by saying that it causes a fight?

Hell I read a story on here a couple months ago about a guy pulling his gun on a tagger and he didn't get as much **** as im getting for telling the guys to shut up.

Crappy world that we are living in here.

I feel like a lot of you probably must not have felt with racist punks attacking you and a loved one.

I think the other thing that your all missing here is that three racist punks picking out a complete stranger to start verbally attacking they were looking for a fight weather I told them to shut up or not I feel like they would have still tried an attack.

newbie said:

I feel like a lot of you probably must not have felt with racist punks attacking you and a loved one.

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I thought all that you said was they were talking, not attacking. I think that what everyone is saying is you may feel that you were in the right addressing them the way you did. All that I and others are saying is that a jury probably would not see it that way. Your life, your call

No matter how many times you restate the story, they didn't come toward you until YOU said something to them.

So.... if they had actually kept coming toward you after you escalated and then you escalated even more by pulling a firearm? A DA would most likely charge you with disorderly conduct.

I know as a 'man' you want to defend your wife's honor, however, you can't do that with a gun unless you (or her) are in immediate fear of death or great bodily harm. Hurt feelings don't count.

I ment verbally attacking, and I dont think by what I said pushed them to the point where they want to attack. They pushed themselfs to that's point. I didn't say a word to them until they were all yelling **** over each other at us. Now I think if the police came I should have been In the clear, and if I have to take a 80$ ticket that's fine by me.

I'd love to hear what you guys seriously would do in a situation that it's a 80% chance three guys are going to beat your ass. And remember nay Sayers. Your gun is nothing more then a fancy watch that you have refused to use as anything other then a paper weight...

And to the guys/girls who say I'm trying super hard to "justifie myself" I already know I did the right thing. To the people who are not going to use your firearms give the damn things up. They are not made just to be looked at. Or to make people think your tough. Cases like mine is a good example of when to brandish your firearm.

Also have you guys given any thought to the gap between the parking rows??!? It's not that far, hell I can spit across the gap! Are you guys thinking they were a mile away from me? It that was the case I would have said anything and I wouldnt be asking you guys the question!

I'm not sure where this forum has gone from the time I joined to now but I can see a change already and I haven't even been gone long.

newbie said:

I Know I did the correct thing, I'm not trying to ask you guys to justifie it for me. I did what I had to do.

I feel like a lot of you probably must not have felt with racist punks attacking you and a loved one.

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No, you didn't do what you had to do because you didn't have to swear at them and help escalate the situation.

Do I think the police or jury would make you out to be the bad guy in this situation? Nope. (Well, maybe in Milwaukee.)

But if your main goal was to keep your wife safe, then you didn't do what you had to do. Doing what you had to do would have included sucking up your pride.

I'm not buying the story

newbie said:

Also have you guys given any thought to the gap between the parking rows??!? It's not that far, hell I can spit across the gap! Are you guys thinking they were a mile away from me? It that was the case I would have said anything and I wouldnt be asking you guys the question!

I'm not sure where this forum has gone from the time I joined to now but I can see a change already and I haven't even been gone long.

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No, you said 30-40 feet. According to the Teuler drill, 21 feet is about the limit before you need to make a shoot/no shoot decision if they are running at you.

So.... They weren't moving toward you and they were 30-40 feet from you when you escalated and swore at them, they started moving toward you. So.... you turned a verbal altercation to one involving firearms.

You came on here asking for our opinion and all of a sudden when EVERYONE who responded to you said that you messed up by swearing at them we are all wrong?

Personally, I just ignore people bad mouthing me. I keep my eye on them but I keep my mouth shut.

I had some union idiots (AFSCME) taunting me at one of their rallies and one even pit their vuvuzela 2 inches from my ear. I just smiled and kept my eye on them. They even told a dog to come piss on my foot. After a couple minutes of this, other union members actually told the guy to cut it out and they apologized to me. Yes, I was open carrying but do you think me pulling my firearm would of actually done any good?

Wow...

newbie said:

I Know I did the correct thing, I'm not trying to ask you guys to justifie it for me. I did what I had to do. If you can't pull your firearm you guys are walking around with a fancy fashion Accessory then. I keep mine for safety, if I want a nice watch I'll ware one not a gun...

That's pretty much what I'm hearing from you guys. Not to sound like a ******* but that's what you guys are showing here. Simply because I told them to shut up your saying I was in the wrong. And that by saying to shut the **** up that is provoking them to the point of a fight? Now let me ask you, have you ever told someone to shut up and simply by saying that it causes a fight?

Hell I read a story on here a couple months ago about a guy pulling his gun on a tagger and he didn't get as much **** as im getting for telling the guys to shut up.

Crappy world that we are living in here.

I feel like a lot of you probably must not have felt with racist punks attacking you and a loved one.

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Wow.... In Order...

I Know I did the correct thing, I'm not trying to ask you guys to justifie it for me.

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You did the WRONG thing by even speaking to them in the first place and in fact by doing so, probably put yourself and your wife in danger that might have been avoided by keeping your mouth shut...

And, to quote your original post...

Now was I in the wrong or right?

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Seems to me like that was asking for justification...

If you can't pull your firearm you guys are walking around with a fancy fashion Accessory then. I keep mine for safety. I keep mine for safety, if I want a nice watch I'll ware one not a gun...

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Wow...That really does not even justify a responce except for maybe ....Wow.... Or maybe a question to you Sir, would be if you "keep yours for safety", then what was it doing unloaded and locked in your trunk...and to quote your post #13... Why was your "carry gun was left at home"...

That's pretty much what I'm hearing from you guys.

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These "guys" are obviously more experianced and probably have been carrying a lot longer than you have and as stated some are actually certified firearms instuctors, hence, I would listen and learn if I were you as I myself have listened and learned a great deal here ....

I feel like a lot of you probably must not have felt with racist punks attacking you and a loved one

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Don't be to sure on that as some here have dealt with a lot worse than trash talkers in a Walmart parking lot....

Finally.... papa bear said...

I'm not buying the story

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I kinda got the same feeling as I was reading the posts, or I think maybe a little maturity increase (growing up)
would be a good thing for the OP....

I do have one question based on this quote from the OP.....

...they said something about my wife so I turned around and told these punks to shut the f up. The three guys then started running at me while I was loading the trunk of the car my girlfriend told me ...

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How does your wife feel about your girlfriend helping you load the car while she is there....???????? :lol:

Nuff Said.....

Outdoorsman1

Wife/girlfriend pretty much same thing as we just got married.

I think my judgment on this forum had deffinantly changed as u feel like some of you are just real trash talkers as well. It's that or you have never been in a real confrontation like this. Pick threw the story all you guys want at the end of the day you have nothing more then a fancy paper waight on your hip.

That goes for the trash talkers... I'm vary unsure as to where everyone I used to talk to on here went as well... Must have got sick of the bulshit and keyboard warriors on here... Anyways I'm logging off for the last time.

Thanks Paul for the only good info about getting a dc.

Everyone else I suggest you guys figure out what firearms are used for instead of dicking around staring at them. It's a vary useless thing if your not willing to even brandish it without being scared to. If someone's jumping in your face posing a threat you need to figure out what it's there for before you start to carry a firearm.

Say wow all you want but the fact is is that your paper weights will not save your ass unles your ready to use it.

Goodbye opencarry.org and all the ******** here.

newbie said:

If someone's jumping in your face posing a threat you need to figure out what it's there for before you start to carry a firearm.

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When did anyone "jump in your face"? Oh, right, AFTER you mouthed off at them because you couldn't swallow your pride and do the best thing to keep your wife safe.

It's no surprise your ego can't handle the fact that your ego increased the risk of danger to your wife.

And to further emphasize the point about your ego, you STILL are going on about brandishing your gun even though most people said that was the right thing to do anyway once they started coming at you. It's the event leading up to the brandishing that so many people are saying it wasn't a good idea.

newbie said:

Say wow all you want but the fact is is that your paper weights will not save your ass unles your ready to use it.

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You are the one with the unloaded gun...

You can call me white trash all you want. It still won't make me draw my gun on you. I think that's everyones point.

newbie said:

I think the other thing that your all missing here is that three racist punks picking out a complete stranger to start verbally attacking they were looking for a fight weather I told them to shut up or not I feel like they would have still tried an attack.

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Sticks & stones there horse; sticks & stones...

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