NOT the way to Open Carry....

marshaul · Oct 10, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
Yea I can't see if the safety is on a holstered 1911 cocked and locked either. And a bullet that ricochets off the floor after flattening out is dangerous. But then even if the safety is off I know the gun is not going to pull it's own trigger. So I don't make a fool of myself by soiling myself over others method of carry.

Some handguns don't have safeties. However, these handguns are properly (and easily) carried in a holster, which covers the trigger at all times and keeps them almost always pointed in a safe direction.

And there's a difference between "soiling myself" and electing to maximize my safety in another vicinity.

WalkingWolf · Oct 10, 2013

marshaul said:
Some handguns don't have safeties. However, these handguns are properly (and easily) carried in a holster, which covers the trigger at all times and keeps them almost always pointed in a safe direction.

And there's a difference between "soiling myself" and electing to maximize my safety in another vicinity.

YOU are aware of the properly holstered handgun in Detroit that killed a young girl when she hugged a police officer at a party? You are aware of the incident in a Texas Walmart where a armed customer ND his HOLSTERED handgun hitting another customer? The incidents are countless with handguns in and out of holsters. And YOU are pointing fingers? I don't have anymore idea that you are any safer than the person in the video. I have heard of very few, actually I have heard of NO ND's in public with AR's.

IMO you are being foolish, and it is a shame because normally you are wiser than that.

jhfc · Oct 10, 2013

ARs have a free floating firing pin and there is a big, scary warning in bold, red type, in the Colt 6920 owner's manual warning the owner that the firearm may discharge if dropped, banged on the front or when closing the bolt on a live round, regardless of the setting of any safety devices.

I have no idea how prevalent accidental discharge is with ARs or under what circumstances, but there are a few stories around the net. I would assume the case is very rare, but one must be extremely careful as the risk seems higher than with other types of firearms, particularly handguns.

BTW, I'm a new AR owner and just coming up to speed.

WalkingWolf · Oct 10, 2013

jhfc said:
ARs have a free floating firing pin and there is a big, scary warning in bold, red type, in the Colt 6920 owner's manual warning the owner that the firearm may discharge if dropped, banged on the front or when closing the bolt on a live round, regardless of the setting of any safety devices.

I have no idea how prevalent accidental discharge is with ARs or under what circumstances, but there are a few stories around the net. I would assume the case is very rare, but one must be extremely careful as the risk seems higher than with other types of firearms, particularly handguns.

Please elaborate/cite those stories, otherwise I conclude they are made up.

BTW the 1911 has a inertia firing pin...

jhfc · Oct 10, 2013

My friends over on m4carbine.net say don't lose too much sleep over the issue.

Nonetheless, stories such as this are disconcerting:

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=97536

Now, it may be a story or reality. Sounds like a malfunctioning firearm.

I googled for "M4 slamfire". I haven't taken my rifle out yet to observe any primer dimpling first hand. I hear that is normal for ARs and other semi-autos. I don't think my mini-14 does that though.

And another "story":

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=205417

Like I said, I'm new to ARs but want to understand the risk. Seems like high primers (improper hand loads) could cause at least the slam fire condition.

WalkingWolf · Oct 10, 2013

jhfc said:
My friends over on m4carbine.net say don't lose too much sleep over the issue.

Nonetheless, stories such as this are disconcerting:

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=97536

Now, it may be a story or reality. Sounds like a malfunctioning firearm.

I googled for "M4 slamfire". I haven't taken my rifle out yet to observe any primer dimpling first hand. I hear that is normal for ARs and other semi-autos. I don't think my mini-14 does that though.

And another "story":

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=205417

Like I said, I'm new to ARs but want to understand the risk. Seems like high primers (improper hand loads) could cause at least the slam fire condition.

Forums are not proper cites, it is just bull droppings and that is it. You do know how a primer works don't you? Maybe you should do some research before inserting foot in mouth. Primers have a anvil inside of the primer that the firing pin crushes the compound to create ignition. If you have some CITES to show that primers can fire without the compound being crushed to the anvil please post them. And please no more bogus blogs, that is just embarrassing.

jhfc · Oct 10, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
Forums are not proper cites, it is just bull droppings and that is it. You do know how a primer works don't you? Maybe you should do some research before inserting foot in mouth. Primers have a anvil inside of the primer that the firing pin crushes the compound to create ignition. If you have some CITES to show that primers can fire without the compound being crushed to the anvil please post them. And please no more bogus blogs, that is just embarrassing.

I thought I made it clear I read "stories", no claim to anything else. No need to get your undies in a bunch compadre. We're just talking here.

As I said, I'm new to the AR and want to understand the risk if any. Seems reasonable to me.

Interceptor_Knight · Oct 10, 2013

Slamfire and walking around with an AR on your back are Apples to Ornithologists..

WalkingWolf · Oct 10, 2013

jhfc said:
I thought I made it clear I read "stories", no claim to anything else. No need to get your undies in a bunch compadre. We're just talking here.

As I said, I'm new to the AR and want to understand the risk if any. Seems reasonable to me.

And I thought I made it clear I am not interested in "stories", and that the use of unsubstantiated stories are cow dung. If the risk bothers you from what you hear at the water-cooler about firearms discharging by themselves you clearly are not educated enough to own one, IMO.

Interceptor_Knight · Oct 10, 2013

jhfc said:
As I said, I'm new to the AR and want to understand the risk if any.

A slamfire with an AR15 is HIGHLY unlikely as the firing pin is relatively light and they have a firing pin return spring which makes this almost unheard of unless someone leaves the spring out or there is something which jams the firing pin in place. This only occurs when you are releasing the bolt into battery, not walking around with a closed bolt.

jhfc · Oct 10, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
And I thought I made it clear I am not interested in "stories", and that the use of unsubstantiated stories are cow dung. If the risk bothers you from what you hear at the water-cooler about firearms discharging by themselves you clearly are not educated enough to own one, IMO.

And I made it clear that was all I had heard. The risk would bother me in some situations, not so much in others.

Nonetheless, how about the Colt manual for a cite? At least of the potential:

"WARNING: THIS FIREARM MAY DISCHARGE ACCIDENTALLY WHEN A ROUND IS FED INTO THE CHAMBER, IF IT IS DROPPED OR RECEIVES A BLOW TO THE MUZZLE OR FRONT OF THE GUN. (This can occur regardless of the position of the hammer or any of the various safety devices.) Therefore, extra care and strict adherence to these instructions by the gun user is mandatory for minimizing the risk of accidents." Page 6 and repeated on page 38.

No one mentioned "firearms discharging by themselves". Nice strawman you're building there. The issue is accidental discharge under a variety of specific circumstances.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but I like to know exactly what I'm dealing with. If the risk is low, great. But, being a responsible firearms owner, I'd like to research and draw my own conclusions.

WalkingWolf · Oct 10, 2013

Interceptor_Knight said:
A slamfire with an AR15 is HIGHLY unlikely as the firing pin is relatively light and they have a firing pin return spring which makes this almost unheard of unless someone leaves the spring out or there is something which jams the firing pin in place. This only occurs when you are releasing the bolt into battery, not walking around with a closed bolt.

Add that 5.56 factory ammo is loaded with a hard primer cup(magnum rifle primer) this is because of the high pressures of the 5.56 NATO round 55,000 cup. It takes a good strike to ignite one of these primers. Anyone who reloads a rifle round of high pressure with anything less than recommended is a fool.

jhfc · Oct 10, 2013

Interceptor_Knight said:
A slamfire with an AR15 is HIGHLY unlikely as the firing pin is relatively light and they have a firing pin return spring which makes this almost unheard of unless someone leaves the spring out or there is something which jams the firing pin in place. This only occurs when you are releasing the bolt into battery, not walking around with a closed bolt.

There is no firing pin return spring in my Colt 6920 in 5.56, but there is one in the 9mm version, according to the manual once again.

marshaul · Oct 10, 2013

Interceptor_Knight said:
A slamfire with an AR15 is HIGHLY unlikely as the firing pin is relatively light and they have a firing pin return spring which makes this almost unheard of unless someone leaves the spring out or there is something which jams the firing pin in place.

Go take yours apart, and take a picture for me of this spring.

Also, load a mag into yours, smack the bolt release, and take a picture of the primer of the loaded round, please.

Firearms Iinstuctor · Oct 10, 2013

Interceptor_Knight said:
A slamfire with an AR15 is HIGHLY unlikely as the firing pin is relatively light and they have a firing pin return spring which makes this almost unheard of unless someone leaves the spring out or there is something which jams the firing pin in place. This only occurs when you are releasing the bolt into battery, not walking around with a closed bolt.

I think you better go field strip your AR15 and take a look for the firing pin return spring.

I never seen one in an AR15 or M16 and none of my parts lists show an firing pin return spring.

In other words they do not have a firing pin return spring.

WalkingWolf · Oct 10, 2013

jhfc said:
And I made it clear that was all I had heard. The risk would bother me in some situations, not so much in others.

Nonetheless, how about the Colt manual for a cite? At least of the potential:

"WARNING: THIS FIREARM MAY DISCHARGE ACCIDENTALLY WHEN A ROUND IS FED INTO THE CHAMBER, IF IT IS DROPPED OR RECEIVES A BLOW TO THE MUZZLE OR FRONT OF THE GUN. (This can occur regardless of the position of the hammer or any of the various safety devices.) Therefore, extra care and strict adherence to these instructions by the gun user is mandatory for minimizing the risk of accidents." Page 6 and repeated on page 38.

No one mentioned "firearms discharging by themselves". Nice strawman you're building there. The issue is accidental discharge under a variety of specific circumstances.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but I like to know exactly what I'm dealing with. If the risk is low, great. But, being a responsible firearms owner, I'd like to research and draw my own conclusions.

There are safety warnings on every gun manufactured in the US~~either show a cite that clearly demonstrates there is a problem or admit you are making stuff up.

JustaShooter · Oct 10, 2013

Interceptor_Knight said:
A slamfire with an AR15 is HIGHLY unlikely as the firing pin is relatively light and they have a firing pin return spring which makes this almost unheard of unless someone leaves the spring out or there is something which jams the firing pin in place. This only occurs when you are releasing the bolt into battery, not walking around with a closed bolt.

marshaul said:
Go take yours apart, and take a picture for me of this spring.

I would also like to see this spring as none of the AR-15 pattern rifles I've dealt with have them...

WalkingWolf · Oct 10, 2013

Firearms Iinstuctor said:
I think you better go field strip your AR15 and take a look at the firing pin return spring.

I never seen one in an AR15 or M16 and none of my parts lists show an firing pin return spring.

I don't think he knows how. He does not even know the nomenclature of a primer.

marshaul · Oct 10, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
YOU are aware of the properly holstered handgun in Detroit that killed a young girl when she hugged a police officer at a party? You are aware of the incident in a Texas Walmart where a armed customer ND his HOLSTERED handgun hitting another customer? The incidents are countless with handguns in and out of holsters.

Indeed, which just goes to show that mechanical devices and their safety systems can fail, and why multiple redundant safety rules are important. I wouldn't want a little kid to hang out under my holstered handgun, either.

I have heard of very few, actually I have heard of NO ND's in public with AR's.

That's because sensible people (read: the vast majority of people who carry guns) carry handguns on a day-to-day basis for practical self-defense, not AR15s.

I mean, come on. You can do better.

IMO you are being foolish, and it is a shame because normally you are wiser than that.

Foolish for not wanting a loaded AR15 pointed at my head?

Are you ready for it?:

Interceptor_Knight · Oct 10, 2013

marshaul said:
Go take yours apart, and take a picture for me of this spring..

I was thinking of my AR10.... Armalite installs springs because of the mass of the 7.62 firing pin...

marshaul said:
Also, load a mag into yours, smack the bolt release, and take a picture of the primer of the loaded round, please.

Yes, there will be some contact. I regularly shoot commercial .223 in my Bushmaster and I have never experienced a slam fire. I instruct Appleseeds each summer and attend High Power shoots and have never witnessed an AR15 slam fire. I have seen it with a M1 Garand and commercial ammo.

WalkingWolf said:
I don't think he knows how. He does not even know the nomenclature of a primer.

Careful there skippy...

NOT the way to Open Carry....

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