Tueller Drill

WalkingWolf said:

I didn't say that, what I said is it has been talked to death and it is nothing new. Some people believe every situation is solved by drawing a gun, and that is not the case. MOST police officers learn that pulling a gun is not the only answer, seems funny you don't get that, or was not trained situation awareness, hand to hand, and using your noodle.

I understand firearm instructors pushing close shooting training, they want the money. I am baffled at a police officer that with experience, you do have some time under your belt don't you? would advocate shooting as the answer to such situations.

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Please, I'm asking nicely, don't wreck this thread by bringing in a thousand UNRELATED things.

1) NEVER said shooting is always the answer

2) there is NO THREAD on this topic

3) It's a method of training. It's a skill set. You can learn it AND learn kung fu.

4) this thread has NOTHING to do with ME or my experience. I showed videos of other guys doing this drill, and cited that other guys designed it. So please leave me and my experience out of it, it's not relevant. Also, I asked for OTHER guys experience doing it or other methods.

Primus said:

Please, I'm asking nicely, don't wreck this thread by bringing in a thousand UNRELATED things.

1) NEVER said shooting is always the answer

2) there is NO THREAD on this topic

3) It's a method of training. It's a skill set. You can learn it AND learn kung fu.

4) this thread has NOTHING to do with ME or my experience. I showed videos of other guys doing this drill, and cited that other guys designed it. So please leave me and my experience out of it, it's not relevant. Also, I asked for OTHER guys experience doing it or other methods.

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You asked and I answered, as far as the topic I am on topic. The subject has been talked to death, and the concept is not new. When you post as a expert on a subject, YOU do make it about you. And I never said kung foo, you really should not lie. I said hand to hand skills, and other methods of defense. You did not offer that, only talked of the Tueller drill, so you brought nothing to the table of close range self defense, which would indicate that for you shooting seems to be the only answer.

Some on this site, myself included do not look to shoot anybody or be in a shooting. Some of us carry OPENLY so we do NOT get into such a situation. You seem to be having a hard time grasping that. So unless you can show where it is a problem for OC of attacks from close range it is another one of those urban legends that OMG if you OC you will be shot first, your gun will be snatched, or you will be attacked at close range.

BTW I am not aware of close range attacks of OCers, maybe you could cite some for us, you know keeping it on topic.

When the Thueller drill first came out I did some force on force training using cotton ball bullets (long before air soft or sims rounds.

I saw every thing from rounds fired into the holster to rounds placed on target and every thing in between when the attacker rushed.

I believe that the point of the drill was not to establish a distance but to make officers and others aware that a person with a edge or impact weapon even though they are out of arms reach can still be dangerous.

The distance is not as important as the knowledge that a determined attacker with a contact weapon can still reach you and inflict damaged even feet away.

Opening up the idea that just distance is not a sure thing one needs to consider drawing ones weapon, gaining distance, or getting objects like a car, table between you and the potential attacker to impede their attack.

Instead of just standing there thinking that I just draw and shoot if one has to.

Firearms Iinstuctor said:

When the Thueller drill first came out I did some force on force training using cotton ball bullets (long before air soft or sims rounds.

I saw every thing from rounds fired into the holster to rounds placed on target and every thing in between when the attacker rushed.

I believe that the point of the drill was not to establish a distance but to make officers and others aware that a person with a edge or impact weapon even though they are out of arms reach can still be dangerous.

The distance is not as important as the knowledge that a determined attacker with a contact weapon can still reach you and inflict damaged even feet away.

Opening up the idea that just distance is not a sure thing one needs to consider drawing ones weapon, getting objects like a car, table between you and the potential attacker to impede their attack.

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Thank You, the bold is probably the best survival solution. But it so far has not seemed to be a problem for open carriers, so one could guess that open carry is a defense from close range attack. Keep in mind that we cannot just walk around with a gun in our hand anticipating an attack. But we can walk with a cane, umbrella, if legal collapsible baton, pepper spray in the hand. Police have been taught for ages, decades that better options than a gun at close range. IMO Tueller drill highlights other methods, maybe that was the point he was trying to get across.

WalkingWolf said:

But hand to hand schools and classes tend to upset the firearm trainers who believe a concealed firearm is the answer for every situation. Well it is a answer for their wallet.

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Hand to hand instructors tend to get up set when weapons users that are sneaky and shoot, cut or other wise injure them. You know your suppose to attack me using a over hand attack instead of upward sweep cutting across the chest and neck. Or your not suppose to just shoot me.

I have yet to meet one that would knowingly take the fight to the a weapon unless it was a last resort.

Not to say that hand to hand isn't useful having trained in them for over 50 years their limits as with any weapon need to be learned and their use applied as needed.

Firearms Iinstuctor said:

Hand to hand instructors tend to get up set when weapons users that are sneaky and shoot, cut or other wise injure them. You know your suppose to attack me using a over hand attack instead of upward sweep cutting across the chest and neck. Or your not suppose to just shoot me.

I have yet to meet one that would knowingly take the fight to the a weapon unless it was a last resort.

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That was not the case with our instructors, but then they were not running schools, they were paid by the state. Training usually included using guns and knifes, as far as the script ALL trainers use scripts to train specific tactics, both firearm and hand to hand. I think the difference is those that train for profit, tend to focus on what will increase those profits.

WalkingWolf said:

You asked and I answered, as far as the topic I am on topic. The subject has been talked to death, and the concept is not new. When you post as a expert on a subject, YOU do make it about you. And I never said kung foo, you really should not lie. I said hand to hand skills, and other methods of defense. You did not offer that, only talked of the Tueller drill, so you brought nothing to the table of close range self defense, which would indicate that for you shooting seems to be the only answer.


Some on this site, myself included do not look to shoot anybody or be in a shooting. Some of us carry OPENLY so we do NOT get into such a situation. You seem to be having a hard time grasping that. So unless you can show where it is a problem for OC of attacks from close range it is another one of those urban legends that OMG if you OC you will be shot first, your gun will be snatched, or you will be attacked at close range.

BTW I am not aware of close range attacks of OCers, maybe you could cite some for us, you know keeping it on topic.

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Thank you for saying this. It needed sayin'.

I get nervous when self proclaimed experts take the position of self appointed trainers and forum participants are their captive audience. When I hear implications of " As far as I know, I'm the most qualified person in this room to.....", my mind goes here:

[video=youtube;BFiXuw7LnBQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFiXuw7LnBQ[/video]

If this thread doesn't produce fawning adulation, I understand karaoke works for those with abnormal demands for attention.

How many opencarry.org people are missing from this forum, killed by knife wielding assailants?

I mean, maybe this is poll worthy? Maybe there are a substantial number of members here, cut up with some regularity, their incidents not making the MSM or maybe moderators here cut the announcement of attacks because there was a knife involved, it wasn't really holstered handgun open carry related?

There could be a need for this specific training. Or it could be a left handed game of attempting to establish dominance within the forum by claiming superior ability and training, citing themselves as the "ultimate authority".

Fuller Malarkey said:

How many opencarry.org people are missing from this forum, killed by knife wielding assailants?

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My guess? 35 ... but they were just training for this .. used live ammo and knifes ...

But the last guy...he's a pro now.

lol ... none really (unless a wife killed him in his sleep)

Firearms Iinstuctor said:

When the Thueller drill first came out I did some force on force training using cotton ball bullets (long before air soft or sims rounds.

I saw every thing from rounds fired into the holster to rounds placed on target and every thing in between when the attacker rushed.

I believe that the point of the drill was not to establish a distance but to make officers and others aware that a person with a edge or impact weapon even though they are out of arms reach can still be dangerous.

The distance is not as important as the knowledge that a determined attacker with a contact weapon can still reach you and inflict damaged even feet away.

Opening up the idea that just distance is not a sure thing one needs to consider drawing ones weapon, gaining distance, or getting objects like a car, table between you and the potential attacker to impede their attack.

Instead of just standing there thinking that I just draw and shoot if one has to.

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Well said, I agree. Someone did mention the side step during drawing, another good training technique.

This is sad guys.

You guys will build entire threads to complain about everything BUT guns or training. But when someone tries to actually talk about guns and how to use them, you wreck it.

This is a gun forum right? I thought there was something posted up about carrying your firearm as a means of self defense. Doesn't that mean you need to know how to shoot the thing? You guys spend more time ******* and moaning about taxes or marijuana or who is banned member, or better yet 65 threads about LE attacking people. But one about actually using guns? That's blasphemy, lets muddle it with nonsense instead. As I tried saying, if you don't like the topic, then move on. Why the need to kill it?

Take out the KNIFE part. ANY weapon or no weapon in a persons hands. The point is a person attacking you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AER9xVI7Jhg

Here's an even better video of variations. The do point shooting from the hit straight from concealment.

Also, the very first opening scene (only a few seconds) is the EXACT encounter I'm talking about. It's armed robbery going wrong. You exit your vehicle in a bad area, they may not even know you have the gun to avoid you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QikmCTgtxx8

Here's the top 10 robbers getting shot. Notice the same trend about them all? They are all extremely close to the suspect. In fact, for those that are shop clerks, store owners, etc you have no place to go.

Please forward to 02:00. Two guys walk into the store with guns. The security officer is sitting by the door. They immediately push him, he FIRST gains distance and pushes with hands, he then takes a few steps and has to draw extremely fast. For those that discredit this type of training.... this is why you should train for different encounters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPMG3hWmMk

This might be the best example so far.

Replace the security guard with you sitting in a restaurant.

Fuller Malarkey said:

I'll tell you what's sad. You're obtuse act. You'd have to establish some common ground before you presumed to be in a position to lecture to anyone here. And I believe this shows you've dug more of hole than established common ground:



You are not an open carry practitioner or open carry advocate. Yet you presume to lecture and prescribe needed training, setting yourself up as the expert analytical commentator and training consultant.

And you've been here a whole month.

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The only person who has set me up as a "expert analytical commentator and training counselor" is you my friend. You keep spouting this. I keep showing you what OTHER guys do in training. I keep referencing other guys who actually are experts.

The common ground is carrying a gun for self defense and because it's a Con. right.

I should add it's sad to spend time bashing other guys, which is against forum rules, instead of talking guns. Everything I said was true. If be an adult and refute it. Or keep being a child and take your ball and go home. In fact, you can build a whole separate thread attacking me if you want, take it away from guys trying to really talk about guns and training.

Fuller Malarkey said:

In cherry picking, you miss the whole message, and by cherry picking you continue with the obtuse act.

By what authority do you lecture, by what authority do you prescribe training, to anybody, about anything?

It is not lost on me that you are here not to be part of, but to establish superiority to all here.

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My authority comes from the same authority that allows you to bash. The same authority that allows guys to lecture others on the fact that weed is Constitutional. The authority that allows guys to prescribe to others what holsters to carry, how to carry their firearms, what firearms to carry, what size caliber to use, that allows others to lecture on when and how to use recording devices or TO use recording devices. Need I keep going?

I do sincerely apologize if some how you are feeling that I am superior to you. That is not my intent nor is it my intent to feel superior to ANYONE at any time.

A quick synopsis.... I post a drill that has been around for a while, that I didn't even create in any way. I did recommend a variation that I have used, but still I did not create. I then RECOMMEND it to others, as others recommend holsters, ammo, etc. Somehow you jump in an immediately swear I'm trying to be an expert. if I recall, at least 3 others responded with either variations, or disagree with this drill an at least said why. That was the intent of the thread and they understood it.

Who is making this about me? YOU are. Who is calling me the expert? YOU are. So again, I'll ask nicely. Will YOU please knock it off. Either post to the topic of the thread or please pound sand. Thank you in advance.

P.S It may be lost, but the topic of the thread was the Tueller drill and how it is ONE of MANY drills used to train for CLOSE engagements with BGs.

Moderator comment on this thread

The subject of this thread is the Tueller Drill and related. It is not about personalities here. Persistent/redundant posts unnecessarily finding fault with another user will be deemed as personal attacks.

It is not a requirement that someone OC for participation on OCDO.

Returning you to the scheduled program = the Tueller Drill.

skidmark said:

The Teuller Drill is NOT a drill that you perform with a training partner coming at you with a knife in hand.

At best it is an exercise you do. An exercise in drawing and getting a shot off in 1.5 seconds or less. Hopefully an exercise in getting an aimed (with no specific method of aiming specified or required) shot off in 1.5 seconds or less. An exercise in getting an aimed shot off (by any means that puts the round downrange safely) in 1.5 seconds or less - stance, grip, or other factors to be at the discretion of the shooter.

Jelly Bryce, using what is now usually described as a crouching quarter-hip stance, was said to be able to draw and get a shot off in under .40 second and hit a target at 10 yards. http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html And he did it years before Teuller.

stay safe.

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So anytime you're exercising drawing and getting a shot off in 1.5 seconds IS a Tueller drill?

I don't get the big RED not. Are you agreeing with me to be safe, not use a real knife, or what?

If a knife guy is doing a Tueller drill, it involves a knife-like object.

If a gun guy is doing a Tueller drill it could just involve watching Youtube videos.

The video with the girl shooting at a plywood target being pulled on a rope is NOT a Tueller drill. She's not surprised, she didn't move an inch, the target offered no threat, the target was moving parallel to her plane, not at her.

Are you drinking too much coffee again?

To ME a Tueller drill involves these aspects (and it might not have ANYTHING to do with deploying a gun or shooting a gun.
1. Element of surprise, unpredictability but still structured and safe
2. Element of movement of some kind of attacking or closing the gap element moving suddenly, or rapidly or both, TOWARD you - target, training partner, towel on a rope.
3. Involves some kind of given distance where the drill 'starts'.
4. Involves getting off the X, either a J-hook, running away, running toward, running at 90 degrees. I usually does not involve just standing still and not moving at all.

If you have none, some, or all of these elements you may be doing a drill or splitting hairs an EXERCISE, but you can call it anything you like.

Primus said:

This is sad guys.

You guys will build entire threads to complain about everything BUT guns or training. But when someone , you wreck it.

This is a gun forum right? I thought there was something posted up about carrying your firearm as a means of self defense. Doesn't that mean you need to know how to shoot the thing? You guys spend more time ******* and moaning about taxes or marijuana or who is banned member, or better yet 65 threads about LE attacking people. But one about actually using guns? That's blasphemy, lets muddle it with nonsense instead. As I tried saying, if you don't like the topic, then move on. Why the need to kill it?

Take out the KNIFE part. ANY weapon or no weapon in a persons hands. The point is a person attacking you.

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This forum site is not about USING guns on other persons, you are mistaken. It is about open carry, and awareness, NOT killing other human beings. Most of us do not use the word kill, we use stop. And the act of open carry stops attacks without shooting or killing, that is called deterrence. I know it may be shocking but subjects like the Tueller drill have been discussed for years, so to most of us it is nothing new. I try/attempt to focus on responsible carry, hopefully not giving the impression that we are some kind of crazy gun nuts the media tries to paint us.

Training for OC in NC and other states is not required, it should not be required, most I have seen MARKETED is useless to the everyday carry of properly holstered firearms. Time after time here in NC, and across the country people WITHOUT training defend themselves with firearms. Videos of C store clerks fending off attacks with brooms, ball bats, and other common items that so far there is no training for are easy to find. I do not have anything against training, I do attempts to shove agendas down others throat. And giving information that may get someone hurt, or worse.

Mods correct me if I am wrong, again this site is not about using a firearm on another human being. If anything it is about deterrence by the presence of a lawfully armed citizen.