Tueller Drill

[Maverick9]

to add to Grape's post on the side topic of OC snatching/shooting:

1. The BG has to be close enough to you to see a black on black gun/holster on a black tshirt and black pants and belt. (in the best OC 'color mode')
2. The BG has to be close enough to shoot you, no intervening 'targets'/bodies
3. You have to be relatively stationary (snatch or shoot)
4. You have to be oriented to the BG since OC is on one side (usually). In AC, you might have your hand in the way. In 4:00 you might have an elbow in the way (see/shoot).
5. And one thing people don't realize always: To see/shoot/grab an OC-er's firearm the BG has to off-focus from his primary target. BGs go into 'tunnel-vision' mode too (though not always).
6. It's known that people watching a video of people playing basketball, watching/counting the number of passes, will miss seeing a guy in a gorilla-suit walking through the frame. This is a video, not 3-D real life.
7. Low light conditions, BGs wearing sunglasses.
8. Weather conditions. (fog, mist, rain, cloudy)

Yes, in an optimal event, carrying a 1911, shiny silver tie and gun, with a pink shirt, clown wig, (Peter?) you might get noticed. Conditions 1-3 still apply.

We've walked through a big box store while carrying a black LCR on black, nobody noticed (I watched from behind), not even kids, nor the person in line at checkout, (and my partner didn't notice she still had it on from the range, lol).

*There can be teams of BGs. It's not frequent in a serendipitous encounter. Having a 'spotter' might change some of those.

 

[Primus]

to add to Grape's post on the side topic of OC snatching/shooting:

1. The BG has to be close enough to you to see a black on black gun/holster on a black tshirt and black pants and belt. (in the best OC 'color mode')
2. The BG has to be close enough to shoot you, no intervening 'targets'/bodies
3. You have to be relatively stationary (snatch or shoot)
4. You have to be oriented to the BG since OC is on one side (usually). In AC, you might have your hand in the way. In 4:00 you might have an elbow in the way (see/shoot).
5. And one thing people don't realize always: To see/shoot/grab an OC-er's firearm the BG has to off-focus from his primary target. BGs go into 'tunnel-vision' mode too (though not always).
6. It's known that people watching a video of people playing basketball, watching/counting the number of passes, will miss seeing a guy in a gorilla-suit walking through the frame. This is a video, not 3-D real life.
7. Low light conditions, BGs wearing sunglasses.
8. Weather conditions. (fog, mist, rain, cloudy)

Yes, in an optimal event, carrying a 1911, shiny silver tie and gun, with a pink shirt, clown wig, (Peter?) you might get noticed. Conditions 1-3 still apply.

We've walked through a big box store while carrying a black LCR on black, nobody noticed (I watched from behind), not even kids, nor the person in line at checkout, (and my partner didn't notice she still had it on from the range, lol).

*There can be teams of BGs. It's not frequent in a serendipitous encounter. Having a 'spotter' might change some of those.

+1

Chances of firearm grab are pretty low. If they are that close they are way in your bubble. I can even see if your in a crowded store and people have to be in your bubble. Hopefully you've already identified potential threats and create distance. A good retention holster will also aid in this and help eliminate the slim chance.

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[Maverick9]

He still fails to get that the Tueller Drill was never about shooting faster, or without responsibility. It was about the distance that a firearm IS INEFFECTIVE.

Not to be argumentative, but:

1. A 'drill' is not an assessment, it's a training tool/mode
2. It is not known at what distance having a firearm is ineffective. Some officers can get their gun out in 1.5 seconds, which is seven paces by a BG at 10ft distance, but the gun was knocked out of their hand.
3. Tueller -drill- for an officer is different for a LAC, OC-ing, or CCing, and the times are different and the distances are different. A LEO might routinely have his hand on his firearm, have retention unclipped or need to release the retention.
4. It must involve surprise. Doing a 'drill' at the range with no threat, no surprise, no adrenaline rush isn't measuring IRL.

Your comment is true. Not about shooting faster or making decision to shoot. LEOs will try to reach for and draw their firearm if rushed or surprised. Note one LEO drew and held at low ready seconds after the bomb blast in Boston Marathon footage no BG around, just noise.

You can do any drill you want involving drawing, shooting and a moving target you know is gonna come at you at the range. You can call it the Skidmark Drill. Is it a Tueller Drill? Maybe, maybe not.

The whole point is, though average reaction time is 0.215 milliseconds, (see a light go on, hit a button to turn it off), average movement time is about 2-3 seconds if you have your hand on the firearm (as many LEOs do in an interview). The BG can sprint 15 feet, you can shoot him, but if you don't move and don't get a headshot or pelvis shot, he will stick you, or touch you (so what?).

At 12 feet, if you're trained to move laterally first, a BG can't touch you and you can shoot him. So stationary drills don't mean much.

FWIW.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Everybody has an opinion, and theirs as far as they are concerned, is the right one, right or wrong. I have used the Tueller drill working with students to show 1. how much ground someone can cover running at you, 2. just how long it takes to get 2 round off from a holstered firearm, 3. just how inaccurate those 2 rounds are. Its always an eye opener when they see the results. I have the student face the target, another student place their hand on that students shoulder and when the student removed his hand to move in the opposite direction, they draw and fire 2 rounds at the target. When the person moving away hears the shot they drop one of two tent stakes they have, after the 2nd shot they drop the 2nd tent stake and stop. It is an eye opener.

+100 the above is the correct intent, and purpose of the training. Anybody ACTUALLY in law enforcement knows that.

As regards to training to be superhero, as a couple have expressed. If that is what you wish become a surgeon, save lives. But even they train for what they cannot do, as well as what they can do. And the limits including time to do their job.

The FBI and other LEA actually train NOT to shoot people, besides when the proper time to shoot people. And they also teach situation awareness. This is the most important tool of a LEO, not how fast you can draw and shoot, BECAUSE there is always somebody faster than you.

But I do not expect self proclaimed superheros to understand logic.

 

[OC for ME]

Situational awareness is profiling.....obviously. I suspect that cops train for the most likely and expected encounter in their specific jurisdiction/patrol area. A county/country deputy would not be as aware as a city cop, and vise-e-versa. A country cop knows to where he is walking, depending on the time of year, a city cop knows this too. Snakes vs. thugs.....there is a difference.

If you're gunna get it better to be ready to take it, or avoid it, than stop it, cuz ya just can't stop it sometimes..

 

[Primus]

Situational awareness is profiling.....obviously. I suspect that cops train for the most likely and expected encounter in their specific jurisdiction/patrol area. A county/country deputy would not be as aware as a city cop, and vise-e-versa. A country cop knows to where he is walking, depending on the time of year, a city cop knows this too. Snakes vs. thugs.....there is a difference.

If you're gunna get it better to be ready to take it, or avoid it, than stop it, cuz ya just can't stop it sometimes..

Good point OC. Awareness is a form of profiling and is the first step in getting out (or better yet avoiding) a bad day. Your awareness is the step in your self-defense "system" if you will. You can do any drill you want and it may not work if you put in a spot that you could have avoided. For example, would this drill help in getting away from guys in the videos? Yes. Would it help against someone who "sneaks" (or you just didn't see them) up behind you and punches you? (as mentioned in another thread) then no, it wouldn't work at all. It's the same as if you carry some other weapon as a means of self defense. Do you carry a knife? A baton? Pepper spray? All of this work differently and would have you react differently to a threat.

The point is once the SHTF you need to know how you use whatever you choose as a method of self defense. If it's a knife (some guys carry stuff in sheaths for defense) then hope you do knife drills, if it's a baton, then I hope you do some strike drills with it to figure out your distance and methods. Even though using your firearm is the LAST step in the process, it's still a step and if you fail that one then might as well not carry (for defense).

Finally, while on the topic of the totality of the system you use (kind of like an EOF method) do you train anything else? Some have mentioned kung fu techniques to fight off guys with weapons. There's also the verbal judo. Many have mentioned the ability to just get off the x and getting objects in between you and the BG. We know that guns are a deterrent, but also know that guns by themselves are not something "scary" or violent in just the possession of in the open. So it's on you make the connection and save your own a**. A sheep carrying a gun is still a sheep.