Tueller Drill

[Grapeshot]

--snipped--

Mods correct me if I am wrong, again this site is not about using a firearm on another human being. If anything it is about deterrence by the presence of a lawfully armed citizen.

OCDO is about normalizing everyday carry of OCd handguns as we go about our everyday routines. The primary purpose in having a handgun on your hip is to provide the means for self-defense when all else has failed, but the very last thing that we want is to be put in the position of having to use lethal force.

An OCd handgun advertizes that the carrier is not an easy/willing target for criminals. Avoidance or running away are, when possible, preferred to engaging in combat.

OC educates by example, and yes, one of the most recognized benefits of OC is the deterrence factor.
Thus it is part of the very foundation of OCDO

 

[E6chevron]

How many opencarry.org people are missing from this forum, killed by knife wielding assailants?

I mean, maybe this is poll worthy? Maybe there are a substantial number of members here, cut up with some regularity, their incidents not making the MSM or maybe moderators here cut the announcement of attacks because there was a knife involved, it wasn't really holstered handgun open carry related?

There could be a need for this specific training. Or it could be a left handed game of attempting to establish dominance within the forum by claiming superior ability and training, citing themselves as the "ultimate authority".

That is a very good point.

I do not remember any posts from people killed by knife wielding assailants. Maybe they are too embarrassed to tell us that they have been killed?

Perhaps the afterlife does not have internet access!

 

[WalkingWolf]

I think there has been one OCer from here killed by her husband. I do not remember how he killed her though, and it would not be the same as a attack from an unknown assailant.

 

[Primus]

This forum site is not about USING guns on other persons, you are mistaken. It is about open carry, and awareness, NOT killing other human beings. Most of us do not use the word kill, we use stop. And the act of open carry stops attacks without shooting or killing, that is called deterrence. I know it may be shocking but subjects like the Tueller drill have been discussed for years, so to most of us it is nothing new. I try/attempt to focus on responsible carry, hopefully not giving the impression that we are some kind of crazy gun nuts the media tries to paint us.

Training for OC in NC and other states is not required, it should not be required, most I have seen MARKETED is useless to the everyday carry of properly holstered firearms. Time after time here in NC, and across the country people WITHOUT training defend themselves with firearms. Videos of C store clerks fending off attacks with brooms, ball bats, and other common items that so far there is no training for are easy to find. I do not have anything against training, I do attempts to shove agendas down others throat. And giving information that may get someone hurt, or worse.

Mods correct me if I am wrong, again this site is not about using a firearm on another human being. If anything it is about deterrence by the presence of a lawfully armed citizen.

It seems the thought process by some (If I'm correct) is that by carrying OC, it's enough of a deterrent that you'll never encounter a person with a knife or any other weapon. If that's that case, do you or anyone else carry bullets in said firearm? If so, why? I know I carry my firearm with as many rds as possible and even carry a spare magazine (as others do on this site). So why the bullets if you'll never train to actually use the bullets? I know you mentioned some states don't require training. Does that mean you shouldn't? Just because the .gov isn't telling you? it's still a good idea to do it on your own without someone holding your hand. Some other guys have posted other methods that will work too.

This drill is NOT JUST FOR KNIVES. I've posted not just 1 but 2 separate videos where guys are being attacked (rushed) by other guys with guns. The cases with the shop owners, some guys were charging into the store with rifles. This drill is about ANYONE who rushes at you. Yes it was originally developed to see how far away a person could be with a knife and still strike you. But replace knife with bat, still works. Replace knife with gun (as I showed with videos) still works.

Food for thought... if this drill is to show you need speed (and distance in either direction as others have pointed out) to be able to draw and safely fire on a target. Well the people that DO get attacked (robbed) how close are they to attackers? Very close. The bad guy doesn't pull the gun a block away and stand there with the whole block in between you. If your aware of your surroundings (as many guys encourage) then you should see the guy coming from at least a few feet away. So you already at the "alert" phase (different levels of awareness). As they approach if you DO see that knife out, or some other weapon (baton, bat, hand gun) then this drill begins (or the steps basically) (alarm phase). Then react.

 

[Primus]

When the Thueller drill first came out I did some force on force training using cotton ball bullets (long before air soft or sims rounds.

I saw every thing from rounds fired into the holster to rounds placed on target and every thing in between when the attacker rushed.

I believe that the point of the drill was not to establish a distance but to make officers and others aware that a person with a edge or impact weapon even though they are out of arms reach can still be dangerous.

The distance is not as important as the knowledge that a determined attacker with a contact weapon can still reach you and inflict damaged even feet away.

Opening up the idea that just distance is not a sure thing one needs to consider drawing ones weapon, gaining distance, or getting objects like a car, table between you and the potential attacker to impede their attack.

Instead of just standing there thinking that I just draw and shoot if one has to.

Can you explain the "cotton ball bullets"? I personally use airsoft for drills or live ammo when using targets. Is the cotton ball thing something you can make at home? Does it involve blanks?

 

[sudden valley gunner]

I think there has been one OCer from here killed by her husband. I do not remember how he killed her though, and it would not be the same as a attack from an unknown assailant.

Melanie Hain, the OC soccer mom. Killed by her LEO husband (parole officer). She was a great fighter for our liberties I miss her contributions, I hope she is resting in peace. I do believe it was by firearm though, I could be wrong about that.

 

[WalkingWolf]

It seems the thought process by some (If I'm correct) is that by carrying OC, it's enough of a deterrent that you'll never encounter a person with a knife or any other weapon. If that's that case, do you or anyone else carry bullets in said firearm? If so, why? I know I carry my firearm with as many rds as possible and even carry a spare magazine (as others do on this site). So why the bullets if you'll never train to actually use the bullets? I know you mentioned some states don't require training. Does that mean you shouldn't? Just because the .gov isn't telling you? it's still a good idea to do it on your own without someone holding your hand. Some other guys have posted other methods that will work too.

This drill is NOT JUST FOR KNIVES. I've posted not just 1 but 2 separate videos where guys are being attacked (rushed) by other guys with guns. The cases with the shop owners, some guys were charging into the store with rifles. This drill is about ANYONE who rushes at you. Yes it was originally developed to see how far away a person could be with a knife and still strike you. But replace knife with bat, still works. Replace knife with gun (as I showed with videos) still works.

Food for thought... if this drill is to show you need speed (and distance in either direction as others have pointed out) to be able to draw and safely fire on a target. Well the people that DO get attacked (robbed) how close are they to attackers? Very close. The bad guy doesn't pull the gun a block away and stand there with the whole block in between you. If your aware of your surroundings (as many guys encourage) then you should see the guy coming from at least a few feet away. So you already at the "alert" phase (different levels of awareness). As they approach if you DO see that knife out, or some other weapon (baton, bat, hand gun) then this drill begins (or the steps basically) (alarm phase). Then react.

The mall allows you do carry a firearm on duty?

I repeat and make it simple, we do not advocate the shooting of other individuals on this site. We advocate the normalization of openly carried holstered firearms by law abiding citizens. As you cannot link any such attacks of open carriers your obsession with shooting others at close range is disturbing. Your answer to every problem seems to be a hammer(gun) and every problem a nail. If you are that scared I suggest you lock yourself indoors before you negligently hurt a innocent.

I believe there is more chance of injury in training for something that probably will not happen, than chances of being attacked while open carrying at less than 21 feet. Furthermore unarmed clerks have survived attacks without guns or training, just the will to survive. Remember most of the folks on this site are NOT police officers or security mall police officers, and DO NOT encounter the same as them. A mall ninja is more likely IMO to get attacked than a LAC minding his own business.

 

[WalkingWolf]

BTW some training on the Tueller dril is to actually determine the distance without injury, in a safe manner. It is not about becoming a quick draw artist, or pulling a gun without thinking and shooting a innocent. It is to determine the distance one can draw and fire when being charged, which is different for everybody. The best way to find that out is have one person stand with their hand on the should of another. When the instructor says go the runner runs in the opposite direction of the shooter related to the target. When the runner hears the gun shot he stops in his tracks, this is the distance that one can draw a firearm when charged keeping in mind that not all runners will run at the same pace.

This is clearly for those people who will encounter resistance and possible attack by perps, LEO's! LEO's do run into this problem, BUT open carriers do not, and since this is a open carry site it is to push training that first off you are getting wrong, and second that is not necessary.

IOW stop watching TV! It corrupts common sense.

The reason GZ survived his attack was not training, or he would not have gotten into the situation in the first place. It was his will to survive. TM did not survive because he did not take into account he might be shot, and he clearly had more training than GZ did. If TM had known from the start where GZ's gun was, and he was carrying GZ probably would be dead, no matter how much training he had.

Time after time citizens defend themselves without training, and IMO do a better job because they are trying to survive.

I could just see some numpty shooting a marathon runner training because the runner was running towards them, because someone told them to.

This thread and OP's description sounds very much like a TV show, something about myths. I seem to remember a scene from the show on Youtube describing the "training" the OP is prescribing.

 

[Grapeshot]

Originally Posted by WalkingWolf

I think there has been one OCer from here killed by her husband. I do not remember how he killed her though, and it would not be the same as a attack from an unknown assailant.

Melanie Hain, the OC soccer mom. Killed by her LEO husband (parole officer). She was a great fighter for our liberties I miss her contributions, I hope she is resting in peace. I do believe it was by firearm though, I could be wrong about that.

Melanie Hain (shefearsnothing) was shot at point blank range while at home on her computer by her husband, who then took his own life

Never will forget her - both DoubleTap and I knew her personally.

 

[Primus]

BTW some training on the Tueller dril is to actually determine the distance without injury, in a safe manner. It is not about becoming a quick draw artist, or pulling a gun without thinking and shooting a innocent. It is to determine the distance one can draw and fire when being charged, which is different for everybody. The best way to find that out is have one person stand with their hand on the should of another. When the instructor says go the runner runs in the opposite direction of the shooter related to the target. When the runner hears the gun shot he stops in his tracks, this is the distance that one can draw a firearm when charged keeping in mind that not all runners will run at the same pace.

This is clearly for those people who will encounter resistance and possible attack by perps, LEO's! LEO's do run into this problem, BUT open carriers do not, and since this is a open carry site it is to push training that first off you are getting wrong, and second that is not necessary.

IOW stop watching TV! It corrupts common sense.

The reason GZ survived his attack was not training, or he would not have gotten into the situation in the first place. It was his will to survive. TM did not survive because he did not take into account he might be shot, and he clearly had more training than GZ did. If TM had known from the start where GZ's gun was, and he was carrying GZ probably would be dead, no matter how much training he had.

Time after time citizens defend themselves without training, and IMO do a better job because they are trying to survive.

I could just see some numpty shooting a marathon runner training because the runner was running towards them, because someone told them to.

This thread and OP's description sounds very much like a TV show, something about myths. I seem to remember a scene from the show on Youtube describing the "training" the OP is prescribing.

Might want to reread my OP. It was that EXACT drill. It showed you the distance you had. Also, others have posted variations on this. Not sure why the need to basically restate my original post and pretend as if it wasn't already described numerous times and multiple videos showing examples....

If you don't like the drill, then as I've said 5 times, just move on to a different thread then. The personal attacks just make you look bad and you might want to start speaking for yourself. I've been told numerous times by the Mods and members here that the firearm is carried for self defense and because it is a right (political reasons to make it common and accepted practice). Not sure why your so upset about training. Your second bold statement is utterly absurd. Sure I'm certain plenty of citizens have been able to get out of a jam with sheer luck and will to survive. You seem to be a fan of giving a child a gun and telling them to have fun. Why show (train) them anything? Others have figured it out. And I guess really it doesn't matter if anyone even knows how to load it, because it being in the open means no one will ever ever attack you since you don't know of any prior examples.

Really? And your former LEO?

 

[Primus]

BTW some training on the Tueller dril is to actually determine the distance without injury, in a safe manner. It is not about becoming a quick draw artist, or pulling a gun without thinking and shooting a innocent. It is to determine the distance one can draw and fire when being charged, which is different for everybody. The best way to find that out is have one person stand with their hand on the should of another. When the instructor says go the runner runs in the opposite direction of the shooter related to the target. When the runner hears the gun shot he stops in his tracks, this is the distance that one can draw a firearm when charged keeping in mind that not all runners will run at the same pace.

This is clearly for those people who will encounter resistance and possible attack by perps, LEO's! LEO's do run into this problem, BUT open carriers do not, and since this is a open carry site it is to push training that first off you are getting wrong, and second that is not necessary.

IOW stop watching TV! It corrupts common sense.

The reason GZ survived his attack was not training, or he would not have gotten into the situation in the first place. It was his will to survive. TM did not survive because he did not take into account he might be shot, and he clearly had more training than GZ did. If TM had known from the start where GZ's gun was, and he was carrying GZ probably would be dead, no matter how much training he had.

Time after time citizens defend themselves without training, and IMO do a better job because they are trying to survive.

I could just see some numpty shooting a marathon runner training because the runner was running towards them, because someone told them to.

This thread and OP's description sounds very much like a TV show, something about myths. I seem to remember a scene from the show on Youtube describing the "training" the OP is prescribing.

Also, can we please put the "I OC so I'll never ever get attacked because it's never happened" thought to bed.

Richmond man killed while OCing. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470871

You talk about other guys "putting info out that may get guys hurt", yet your basically advocating that you don't even need to know how to DEFENSIVELY shoot a gun (completely different then just putting holes in a paper) and that it shouldn't even be DISCUSSED on this forum. OCing IS a deterrent, not doubt about it. It DOES NOT make you bullet proof.


Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.
Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.
"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.
According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/t...cle_970e24e7-dd5d-57e7-8fb8-a64a0a2b26ba.html

 

[WalkingWolf]

Also, can we please put the "I OC so I'll never ever get attacked because it's never happened" thought to bed.

Richmond man killed while OCing. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470871

You talk about other guys "putting info out that may get guys hurt", yet your basically advocating that you don't even need to know how to DEFENSIVELY shoot a gun (completely different then just putting holes in a paper) and that it shouldn't even be DISCUSSED on this forum. OCing IS a deterrent, not doubt about it. It DOES NOT make you bullet proof.

I will let grapeshot put that one to rest for you, he has more knowledge on the case. There is some confusion as to whether he was OCing or CCing. The gun fell out on the floor, and the numpty chased the armed suspect UNARMED. Had he just reported it he would most likely still be alive. And even if the ONE case I repeat ONE case was a OCer rushed, his grabbing his gun would not have made any difference, he had a concealed carry so he WAS trained. And still even what percentage would that be? 1% or 1% of 1% maybe.

You really are going to have to do better than that.

And as I suspected this is turning into a if you OC your gun will be snatched, you will be killed first, or a rush attack. We have heard all this garbage all before. I suspected that was your agenda all along.

BTW he was not stabbed, or attacked with a knife, his problem was he did not keep his firearm secure. I responded to a Fl State trooper attacked by two assailants and have skull fractures, all her teeth kicked out wearing a thumb snap leather holster, and her gun was not snatched, or dropped.

The intelligent thing to do in a attack is retention of the firearm, NOT pulling it out only to have it taken away. Dead people do that.

 

[MAC702]

Also, can we please put the "I OC so I'll never ever get attacked because it's never happened" thought to bed.

Richmond man killed while OCing. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470871

First, no one here says that. There are important differences in what we say and your paraphrase which make all the difference.

Second, at the time he was killed, he wasn't OC'ing. He was unarmed and chasing the bad guys that stole his gun. Very critical difference.

 

[Primus]

I will let grapeshot put that one to rest for you, he has more knowledge on the case. There is some confusion as to whether he was OCing or CCing. The gun fell out on the floor, and the numpty chased the armed suspect UNARMED. Had he just reported it he would most likely still be alive. And even if the ONE case I repeat ONE case was a OCer rushed, his grabbing his gun would not have made any difference, he had a concealed carry so he WAS trained. And still even what percentage would that be? 1% or 1% of 1% maybe.

You really are going to have to do better than that.

And as I suspected this is turning into a if you OC your gun will be snatched, you will be killed first, or a rush attack. We have heard all this garbage all before. I suspected that was your agenda all along.

Your killing me. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW YOU CARRY YOUR FIREARM. This isn't OC or CC. This is if you carry a gun PERIOD. YOU stated that you don't need training because you'll never get attacked (paraphrase). You made a blanket statement that was easy to refute. You put yourself in the corner by making a blanket statement. By using such words as all, never, always, etc. you make it easy to shoot a hole in your premise. All I did was show 1 example of a person carrying a gun who got attacked. I really DON'T CARE if it was holstered, on the floor, in his hand, on the table, in his shoe, in his girlfriends underwear. All that matters is that there was a gun visible and he got attacked. Period. So therefore you can NOT say "If I have a gun I will never get attacked". Which means you can/should acknowledge the fact that YES having the gun decreases your chances phenomenally. But it DOESN'T eliminate the chance. Why is that so hard to see? Finally, even if there is only a 1% or 100% you should probably still train some way. Actually, this MAY be a good example of hand gun retention training.

You should probably spend less time "suspecting" things and spending more time at the range shooting and training.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Your killing me. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW YOU CARRY YOUR FIREARM. This isn't OC or CC. This is if you carry a gun PERIOD. YOU stated that you don't need training because you'll never get attacked (paraphrase). You made a blanket statement that was easy to refute. You put yourself in the corner by making a blanket statement. By using such words as all, never, always, etc. you make it easy to shoot a hole in your premise. All I did was show 1 example of a person carrying a gun who got attacked. I really DON'T CARE if it was holstered, on the floor, in his hand, on the table, in his shoe, in his girlfriends underwear. All that matters is that there was a gun visible and he got attacked. Period. So therefore you can NOT say "If I have a gun I will never get attacked". Which means you can/should acknowledge the fact that YES having the gun decreases your chances phenomenally. But it DOESN'T eliminate the chance. Why is that so hard to see? Finally, even if there is only a 1% or 100% you should probably still train some way. Actually, this MAY be a good example of hand gun retention training.

You should probably spend less time "suspecting" things and spending more time at the range shooting and training.

This is about YOU, and your fantasies. Drawing a firearm during a close range attack is the actions of a dead idiot.

 

[Primus]

First, no one here says that. There are important differences in what we say and your paraphrase which make all the difference.

Second, at the time he was killed, he wasn't OC'ing. He was unarmed and chasing the bad guys that stole his gun. Very critical difference.

There were multiple guys in this thread that stated that no guy has been stabbed while OCing therefore this training is irrelevant. Then when I explained the training was to deal with any attack, not just knives, the response was again "we don't ever get attacked so don't need training" (again paraphrase).

I agree that the exact moment that he was shot he may have been unarmed, I'm not even trying to dispute details about where the gun was (see above post). My point was he had a gun and was attacked, that's all. No more, no less. It was an example that carrying a gun does not make you unable to be attacked. That's all.

 

[WalkingWolf]

The purpose of Tueller type drills NEVER was about drawing a gun faster than a person can run. It was and still is about not counting on the firearm in a close attack. That is why real police officers are taught drills in how to disarm using other methods.

 

[Primus]

This is about YOU, and your fantasies. Drawing a firearm during a close range attack is the actions of a dead idiot.

So be it, that's your opinion. I guess the video I showed of the top 10 (yes 10) people that were able to respond to an armed attacker by drawing, getting off the x and shooting them, are all "dead idiots". Your just making more blanket statements.

Again, either add something thats relevant to the topic of the thread of kick rocks. I'm not the topic of the thread, start your own "Primus is delisional" thread and I know a few guys will meet you over there. This isn't that thread. Thanks in advance.

 

[MAC702]

...My point was he had a gun and was attacked, that's all. No more, no less. It was an example that carrying a gun does not make you unable to be attacked. That's all.

I agree with this.

 

[WalkingWolf]

There were multiple guys in this thread that stated that no guy has been stabbed while OCing therefore this training is irrelevant. Then when I explained the training was to deal with any attack, not just knives, the response was again "we don't ever get attacked so don't need training" (again paraphrase).

I agree that the exact moment that he was shot he may have been unarmed, I'm not even trying to dispute details about where the gun was (see above post). My point was he had a gun and was attacked, that's all. No more, no less. It was an example that carrying a gun does not make you unable to be attacked. That's all.

HE WASN'T STABBED! You are making a fool of yourself. And if you are not trying to dispute details then why did you dishonestly represent them?