.357 vs .38 special

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Agent19 wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

The muzzle flash from a hot .357 (185 gr Silvertip) can be awesome, even from a 4" barrel.

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Just splitting hairs;
Winchester's .357mag Silvertip is a 145gr loading.

I find winchester's 110grJHP (@1290fps) an excellent loading for those that want more power than .38pl offers with out the excessive recoil of th 125gr or >magnum loads, especially when using a lite weight snubby.

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Note to self - proof read more. :?

That would be a heavy load wouldn't it? Must have been trying to mentally stuff my light .45ACP into the venerable Mod.66. Thanks for keeping me straight.

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

Thanks for keeping me straight.

Yata hey

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What are friends for.

There are >185 gr loadings for .357mag, I have a few 250gr LSWC loaded to 1100+fps but they aren't for anything lighter than a Blackhawk, N-frame or rifle.

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Grapeshot wrote:

RebelHell wrote:

I just remembered one more reason. Have you ever seen the muzzle flash from a .357 snubby? If you ever had to use it in self defense at night, you would be blind after the first shot.

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You shoot with your eyes open? :shock:

The muzzle flash from a hot .357 (185 gr Silvertip) can be awesome, even from a 4" barrel.

Yata hey

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I had no idea they allowed flamethrowers at gun ranges!

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Grapeshot wrote:

Must have been trying to mentally stuff my light .45ACP into the venerable Mod.66.

Yata hey

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.45ACP 185gr. Bonded Defense JHP 1225fps - 616 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911

This is an excellent load.

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Yes I shoot with my eyes open, sheesh lol. Call me old fashioned, I like to know where the bullets are going.

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I carry a short barreled .357 with a ported barrel. I use it as a dual purpose hunting backup gun also. I have no problem doing a cylinder dump into a target at 25 yds. I hate using .38 specials because the .357 casings will stick if you do not clean the cylinder well in between the 2 rounds. I use hunting bullets for defense loads also. If I didn't use it for hunting, I would have no issues with it being a .38.

Shot placement, penetration, expansion, bullet integrity. Energy has nothing to do with killing. Things like sectional density can tip the scales towards a bullet with less energy on paper. Men are like any other dangerous game.Lights out quickly is the only goal. Shooting through barriers is not a primary concern for self defense. Unless you are a cop, you should not have to worry about shooting into cars. Shooting through layers of clothing is.The biggest difference between a .357 and .38 is their effective range.

If you are going to lay awake and worry about the numbers, then go with something like the Buffalo Bore +P loads. 1000fps and 351 ft/lbs. If you can't get over the fact that this is an all lead bullet, then Winchester and Hornady each have new sexy loads. Reality is thatthe lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint (LSWCHP) which is an unjacketed all-lead roundhas a proven track record by cops killing bad guys.

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Tried these yesterday: http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=760

Loved them. Little felt recoil in the 4" .357, accuracy was unmistakeable. They found a home!

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I HAVE 2 .357'S. A RUGER NEW MODEL BLACKHAWK SINGLE ACTION WITH A 6 1/2 BARREL AND A DOUBLEL ACTION DAN WESSON WITH AN 8 INCH BARREL. I LOVE BOTH GUNS. THE PLUS I THINK TO THE .357 OVER THE .38. IS THAT YOU CAN LOAD .38'S IN THE .357 AND HAVE A MILD RE-COIL TO INTRODUCE A YOUNG SHOOTER, AND THEN STEP THEM UP TO A .357 LOAD. I DID THIS WITH MY SON. HE PREFERS A HIGH VELOCITY 125 GRAIN ROUND IN .357 MAGNUM, WHICH I LIKE, ESPECIALLY FOR HUNTING.

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REDNECK wrote:

I HAVE 2 .357'S. A RUGER NEW MODEL BLACKHAWK SINGLE ACTION WITH A 6 1/2 BARREL AND A DOUBLEL ACTION DAN WESSON WITH AN 8 INCH BARREL. I LOVE BOTH GUNS. THE PLUS I THINK TO THE .357 OVER THE .38. IS THAT YOU CAN LOAD .38'S IN THE .357 AND HAVE A MILD RE-COIL TO INTRODUCE A YOUNG SHOOTER, AND THEN STEP THEM UP TO A .357 LOAD. I DID THIS WITH MY SON. HE PREFERS A HIGH VELOCITY 125 GRAIN ROUND IN .357 MAGNUM, WHICH I LIKE, ESPECIALLY FOR HUNTING.

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Welcome to OCDO!!!

Spend much time in the artillery? We can hear you just fine without shouting (all caps is considered shouting)

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Interceptor_Knight wrote:

I carry a short barreled .357 with a ported barrel. I use it as a dual purpose hunting backup gun also. I have no problem doing a cylinder dump into a target at 25 yds. I hate using .38 specials because the .357 casings will stick if you do not clean the cylinder well in between the 2 rounds. I use hunting bullets for defense loads also. If I didn't use it for hunting, I would have no issues with it being a .38.

Shot placement, penetration, expansion, bullet integrity. Energy has nothing to do with killing. Things like sectional density can tip the scales towards a bullet with less energy on paper. Men are like any other dangerous game.Lights out quickly is the only goal. Shooting through barriers is not a primary concern for self defense. Unless you are a cop, you should not have to worry about shooting into cars. Shooting through layers of clothing is.The biggest difference between a .357 and .38 is their effective range.

If you are going to lay awake and worry about the numbers, then go with something like the Buffalo Bore +P loads. 1000fps and 351 ft/lbs. If you can't get over the fact that this is an all lead bullet, then Winchester and Hornady each have new sexy loads. Reality is thatthe lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint (LSWCHP) which is an unjacketed all-lead roundhas a proven track record by cops killing bad guys.

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Au contraire. If that staement were true, a firearm would be unnecessary for defense, you could just throw a rock. Moreover the object of the excersise is not to kill but to end the threat. Simple presentation of a firearm has saved many a life. Neither I nor any other civilized person wants to kill anyone at anytime. Should I ever -God forbid- have to use lethal force in self defense I will regret having to have had to seriously injure or kill a fellow human being. Unless I am in combat for a military objective I will NEVER shoot to kill. I will, however, shoot to live or to save life (and even militarily in a just conflict that is what a soldier does really). I am not a moral ditherer, either. But if precious innocent life is not at stake I will not draw. If it is, I pray I will not miss.

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Alexcabbie wrote:

Au contraire. If that staement were true, a firearm would be unnecessary for defense, you could just throw a rock. Moreover the object of the excersise is not to kill but to end the threat.

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We all know that this is semantics. Although you are not trying to deliberately end the person's life, the effect of the euphemism "stop the threat" is oftenfatal lead poisoning. If the proverbial switch is turned off, there is no fight left in the threat. My valid point is that ft-lbs alone are no guage of the effectiveness of a round to "stop a threat". So long as the bullet penetrates sufficiently to disrupt the central nervous system through one of several possible mechanical and effects, the threat will cease. There is a reason that a firearm is considered deadly force....:exclaim:

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Quite true (as opposed to "partially true"?). However, the mere presentation of a firearm is more often than not suffficient to end matters. But if not, then it is best that the lethal force presented if used must indeed be lethal. My rough estimate - thoroughly unscientific, just the result of what I have picked up reading about it and listening to credible stories of self defense - is that about 75 to 80 percent of the time mere presentation of the weapon will cause the BG to rethink his plans and quickly vacate your presence. This is why I would say that to be effective for defense a weapon has to be large enough to be immediately percieved as just that and not, say, a cigarette lighter.

In the remaining cases, simply the reality of actually having been shot will have the same effect most of the time, even with a .22 short.

But there remain those bad ol' puddy tats who must be incapacitated - even if that means killing them - to end the threat. And since BGs are not color-coded, this means that adequate self defense means carrying a reasonably lethal load. Consensus seems to be that .380 is a bare minimum. I like the Walther PPK/s. It will do the job if called upon, and I trust it.

Better still the 9MM, and even better the .38 Special. Most self-defense situations take place at 7 yards or less - almost point-blank range - and at that distance a .38 is 99 % of the time plenty. Proper training in use of your weapon is quite as crucial as caliber, and perhaps a bit more. Maybe you have noticed or heard that BGs tend to hold their weapon with the grip parallel to the ground to diminish upward recoil. This is completely stupid and this "gangsta" method means a high liklihood of missed shots. If I were forced to duel formally with one of these dumbasses, I would let him have his fully loaded 18 shot 9mm; and I would take him on with one cartridge in my .38 at 20 paces. And chances are I would drill his butt before he could zero his spray in on me. Rememer that BGs are STUPID. If they were not stupid they would not be BGs.

Also please do not think I am disrespecting you in any way. I am only pointing out that the OBJECTIVE in using lethal force is not to kill, although there is a very high likleyhood of thaat happening. The objective is to PROTECT, and nothing else.

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I like my 9mm. At the range, I practice 2 at center mass, and 1 at the head. I try to practice more head shots than anything else, especially with my .357 mag. If I am gonna stop a fight, there's a chance I am going to do it with 1 shot. At home I got a shotgun with #1 buckshot. If I need to shoot much more than 20 yards, I can blow a broadhead off my cross-bow from 10 feet to 60 yards and make my mark every time.

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I have not got to shoot them in my .357 mag yet. I have shot them out of my Marlin .30-30. I love them in that gun until you hit a limb. I got two decent bucks this last season. One with a 180 grain Winchester thru the brush. Hit my mark at 80 yards, the deer went straight down. The next was with the Hornady 165 grain. The exact same shot, thru the same limb, and the bullet deflected down about a few inches. The limb was actually only a few yards from where the deer was standing. They group good, and with the gun sighted in at 100 yards with 180 grain Winchesters, the Hornady ammo shot about 2 1/2 inches higher. I really want to put a box through my .357.

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Hey Redneck, the Mozambique drill is fine - and effective. Takes practice. And congrats on your hunting success. But open-carrying a rifle or a crossbow is a bit impractical. The sheeplle think we are nutty enough just carrying a relatively unobtrusive sidearm. And besides, this section of the forum is about selecting a handgun.

How about putting in where you are writing from? We have had a whole group of troublemaking nogoodniks who have tried to do damage to the movement here and many of them decline to say where they hail from.

You make a valid point however. Marksmanship is indeed important. If you can't hit water if you fell out of a boat, your firearm s useless. Point noted.

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REDNECK wrote:

I love them in that gun until you hit a limb. ......The exact same shot, thru the same limb, and the bullet deflected down about a few inches. The limb was actually only a few yards from where the deer was standing.

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Neither of your bullets are designed to pass through tree limbs undeflected. The term "brush gun" is often misused as it refers to a short barreled gun which is easy to carry, and not in reference to its ammunition having magical properties against hitting brush. Even a very tiny twig can severely deflect a round or you may get fortunate and have a round go straight through a larger branch. I have witnessed both repeatedly with round nosed hunting ammo.

It sounds like you are getting your .308/.30-06 ammo mixed up with your .30-30 ammo in your story. There is no such animal as 180gr or 165gr .30-30 ammo.

A threat to your life will not be standing still waiting for you to shoot. If it is, it likely is not much of a threat. Even at close range,it is difficult to make a head shot on a moving target.

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Alexcabbie wrote:

Maybe you have noticed or heard that BGs tend to hold their weapon with the grip parallel to the ground to diminish upward recoil. This is completely stupid and this "gangsta" method means a high liklihood of missed shots. If I were forced to duel formally with one of these dumbasses, I would let him have his fully loaded 18 shot 9mm; and I would take him on with one cartridge in my .38 at 20 paces. And chances are I would drill his butt before he could zero his spray in on me. Rememer that BGs are STUPID. If they were not stupid they would not be BGs.

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I have read studies which indicated that the point style shooting done on the street ends up being effective. Although they will not win any marksmanship competitions, they manage to hit each other with regularity. They are shooting at moving targets and often times are close range. 20 yds (paces) is beyond the normal shooting distance.

Have you seen the interviews with these kids? Most of the older gang members have been hit multiple times in their life with 9mm or larger. The mere presentation of a handgun or being struck with a .22 in a non critical spot will not make them stop drop and curl up in the fetal position for you....

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True, however the reason they hit each other is that they spray so many rounds all over that one will probably hit. (They are rather famously not concerned about innocent bystanders). I follow Wyatt Earp's admonition to "take your time in a hurry".

Sometimes in order to simulate stress I will jitter myself up with caffiene before a trio to the range to simulate the effects of adrenaline and fear. I wish there were a "Hogan's Alley" for civilians I could practice at but I don't know of any, at least not near Alexandria.

The gang-bangers you speak of are those "bad ol' puddy tats" I mentioned whom one had best have sufficient firepower to handle. And of course the best policy is to avoid trouble rather than look for it. That's what I pay the police for.

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DreQo wrote:

If this has been discussed before, I apologize. The search function isn't functioning at the moment.

I've noticed quite a few people lately that carry a .38 special revolver. The first thing that always comes to my mind when someone says that is "Why not .357?". As far as I can tell, the only benefit that the .38 has over the .357 is felt recoil. I've shot both before, all though not extensively,and the .357 didn't feel unwieldy by any means. Is there some other benefit of the .38 special over the .357 that I am unaware of?

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i have a 2in rossi 6shot 357 shoot magnums no problem, also can shoot 38s best of both worlds for me..

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Actually I made a mistake, I was shooting 170 grain Federal loads through my .30-30. Hornady makes a new load for .30-30 it's in their Lever Evolution in a 165 grain .30-30. My wife shot both rounds with me when I was sighting in. My question is, is the Hornady ammo that much better in my .357 mag, and will it make a difference with an 8" barrel?