hand was on my gun

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kyleplusitunes wrote:

hate to say it but I'm with Hank on this one. I have been a camera guy, gathering info for the police on a crack house before.

maybe he should not have followed you onto your private property, however, putting your hand on your gun before seeing a deadly weapon on the potential BG, in my honest opinion, is a bad move. it also may leave you open to a lawsuit if you would have pointed it in his direction, as far as I know, you can't just shoot someone for being on your property even after you ask them to leave.

I would have calmly and kindly told the man that I was indeed armed, and he should stay in the street to keep this from becoming a possibly dangerous situation for us both.

remember, your gun is absolutely deadly, last resort and when you're in absolute terror for the safety of your life.

I am an open carry member, and absolutely pro-Rkba, I support carry in all forms. however, I do not support putting peoples lives in your crosshairs for a situation that was cool from the get go.

this is just my two cents, I'd hate to see any of our members or posters make a bad choice when it comes to being in a less than life threatening situation.

stay cool, remember, you're the one who is armed.

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+1 imo photos are harmless,take a plate,make a non-emergency call and smile .

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me, i would have posted this on the draw or no draw thread in the wisconsin forum.. i think you did the right thing. he failed to identify himself, or his intent, and then advanced on you. i would have gone to the 'ready' position, and see how it played out. i'm glad to hear it wasn't a bad guy after you, and you came out of it ok. still a 'close one' in my book.

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freightman360 wrote:

HankT wrote:

freightman360 wrote:

HankT wrote:

freightman360 wrote:

well to start the day off was good got all 4 of my dogs licenced had a great day with my wife . went to visit her sister and thats when it all went to h*ll. went out to smoke a cig was sitting in my truck lil blue car pulled up no cause for concern guy gets out and starts taking pictures of the house across the street that didnt seem weird its for sale (forclosure) then he turns and starts taking pictures of my truck my mother in laws house the neighbors house and cars (ding ding ding) bells go off. exited my truck walked over and asked why he needed pictures of my truck and my mother in laws home. he ask if i wanted him to show me i said yes he threw some papers in my face and said something about an inspection.. i asked who he worked for and was told it was none of my bus. so i told him i was calling the police and then he got really ticked and asked why. i told him because he wouldnt identify himself. so i walked back to my truck to get my cell herd footsteps coming up behind me turned around to find this guy right behind me about 10 ft. i told him to stop and not come on the property he continued to come at me i backed up and put my truck hood between him and i grabbed my gun and had it half way out told him that i would defend myself and the cops are on the way ( saw the neighbor on the phone) then came the stare down i reached through the window got my phone dialed 911 and requested an officer was told they were on the way to stay away from the guy told her that i had my cpl and was armed and i would defend myself and was told to just stay calm lol . cops show up and identify the guy as an inspector for a law office that had a controlling intrest in the house across the street and he was just taking pictures of the neighbor hood for an apraisel.

officer asked what i carried (M&P .40) talked a little about that and the dumb dumb inspector and how close he came. they left i went and heaved havnt been that shook up in a while.

what would you have done????

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How big was the guy, in relation to you?

 

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about 50 to 60 lbs lighter than me.... me being 6ft 3" 330 lbs he was 6ft 6-8"

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OK.

Well, first of all, you escalated the interaction and got it started on its upward spiral of intensity.

Is there some kind of law that says a guy cannot take pictures of a house from the street or sidewalk in your MIL's city? If not, why are you bothering the camera guy?

And, if not, why are you asking for ID (company)?  (Isn't it kind of iron, btw, that you would want to ask a citizen in a public place for ID without any legal reason for doing so--the exact same thing that many OCers chaff at when a cop/security does it to them).

That's where the beef started. With your demand for ID (company). I have to wonder, of course, just how polite you were in asking for that ID (company). What exactly and how exactly did you ask?

You're a little unclear in your description of the event as to what the camera guy did in following you. Did he attack you? Did he say anything threatening? Did he go on your MIL's property?

Unless I read some new details, I think you caused most of the intensity of the situation. I think you over-reacted. Clearly so.

You had your "hand on your gun" and"had it half way out"--- because of a camera guy who was obviously not a threat.
 
Suboptimal performance, f360.

In answer to your question, I would have asked the guy why he was taking pics of my MIL's house. If he answered, I would've said, "OK." If he didn't, I would have gotten his car info and tag. I would not have done anything to create a physical confrontation, especially not with a gun.

Guns are for threats. Not guys with cameras.



One last thing. You actually think he was "taking pictures of my truck?"  Really?

C'mon.

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 because of a camera guy who was obviously not a threat. how am i to know that he is not a threat. he fallowed me onto privet property to continue confronting me after asking several times for him to leave and him not that makes him a threat to my well being i didnt know if he had a wepon and the way he was acting and not wanting the cops involved that raised my suspisions evenmore...... and last i knew is you have to have permision to take pictures if you are going to make money from them and he didnt have mine or my mil's permision to take them.

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This is not true. Any picture taken from public property is fair game, no permission needed. I'm a photographer, and I know this to be true.

 

In answer to your question, I would have asked the guy why he was taking pics of my MIL's house. If he answered, I would've said, "OK." If he didn't, I would have gotten his car info and tag.  <---- this is why he was ticked off because i got his tag and was calling the police because he wouldnt answer my questions i did not demand just simply asked he is the one that was in the fight mode. threw papers in my face and got out of controle.

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I still say you did the right thing. He continued escalation.

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I think you put your hand on your gun WAYYYYYY to early. Your gun should not have been touched unless you truly felt your LIFE was in serious danger. Not gonna bash you, just think you used severely poor judgment

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Guys we can say what we want from the description given. However we were not there to see the facial expressions on the blue car guys face or hear his tone. We can say the OP reacted wrong but when fight or flight kicks in and the adrenaline starts pumping things change.

I have had run ins with folks that are like the photo guy in this thread and they can be very scary in that they want to intimidate you and BC they think they are the alpha they throw their weight around.

If I was on the street taking pictures I would have no problem telling a person who asked me why I am there. By acting high and mighty the photographer set himself up for a fail IMOP.

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jeremy05 wrote:

sounds like YOU were way out of line at the start, meaning you caused the reactions to your actions. Seems like you could have initiated the conversation in another matter, maybe I wasn't there. Almost everyone seems to give the police a hard time when they REQUEST id from you, but when you ask a total stranger for ID and they refuse and you get all bent out of shape. Well how did it feel? The guy was breaking NO laws and was not doing anything ILLEGAL.

Just my opinion.

Edit. You don't need permission to take pictures of anything in open view, including people.

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well the dude could have been checking out the homes to rob and with a slight cover most people would not ask much Q's. what was done was done in the best possible way i can think of it also sounds like the guy would not have seen the gun partialy drawn because the truck was in the way. good job at identifing a potencal risk and checking it out on your mother in law's behalf. because if it was a dude planing to rob the place who knows what might have happed if he broke into her house with her there.

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IMHO; Any of you ever taken pics of LE in park ,at girlfriends ,at stop light or when they are making arrest ? Had any tell you to stop when on pubic sidewalk or street ? Do you know where Your finger is at all times ? So if You commit a [ Alleged ] Crime with Firearm oh well !

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Bottom line for pictures:

If a person is anywhere they are legally allowed to be - they may take pictures of anything they can see from that vantage point. The exception is window peeping.

If they are on private property that is generally available to the public, they may take pictures unless told not to. If they are asked to leave, then we're talking trespass, nothing against the picture taking.

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autosurgeon wrote:

Guys we can say what we want from the description given. However we were not there to see the facial expressions on the blue car guys face or hear his tone.

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That's interesting. You felt no restriction due to lack of detaillast night when you said:


autosurgeon wrote:

I think you did just fine. And I hope the stupid inspector had to change his shorts!

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Not only did you give your immediate and full approval of F360's actions from the given information, you also cracked a joke about the camera guy's poor luck in meeting a guy with a gun and a predilection to resort to it at the first available opp.

Methinks, you just gather and interpret info that suits your bias. And then simply create somenew info to move it along after that.



autosurgeon wrote:

We can say the OP reacted wrong but when fight or flight kicks in and the adrenaline starts pumping things change.

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If the man can't handle adrenaline while carrying a deadly weapon, well, then.....






autosurgeon wrote:

I have had run ins with folks that are like the photo guy in this thread and they can be very scary in that they want to intimidate you and BC they think they are the alpha they throw their weight around.

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1. Have you ever pulled your handgun out of its holster (or "had it half way out") with such folks?

2. Have you given any thought to the evidence that it was F360 that was the "alpha" and throwing his (ample) "weight around" in the instant case?





autosurgeon wrote:

If I was on the street taking pictures I would have no problem telling a person who asked me why I am there.

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And....? What's your point?





autosurgeon wrote:

By acting high and mighty the photographer set himself up for a fail IMOP.

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What about the "However we were not there...." bit on this point?



I think your analysis is weak and hopelessly biased, AS.Mostly apologist stuff.

Pity. It's not exactlyauto surgery todeduce whathappened, even from the self-serving OP. OPperformed sub-optimally. Went to the gun for a non-threat.

One more case that supports the general anti position that citizens with guns will resort to gun to resolve minor, andI mean minor, disagreements/disputes.Classic.

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I guess HankT I should not post my opinions on this board as they are not up to your standards. However I know the OP and I doubt he would throw his weight around without ample reason IE fear of what the person he was dealing with was going to do.

Personally I feel that he did just fine getting behind cover and there is no reason to NOT prepare by having a hand on your weapon. HE didn't draw and aim just prepared to... which is very diff.

And no I have never had my gun out of the holster in this type of situation. I have had my hand on it a couple of times though. (Those are another story however)

If you are going to be taking pictures in a residential neighborhood it is wise to be ready to explain why as people tend to be jumpy about it. I know as I used to take pictures in Kzoo in the historical sections for college classes I was taking.

Several times I had people ask me what I was doing and they were not very nice about it. I found that a smile and showing them the assignment from Western did the trick. I even had one old lady invite me in to take pictures of the rose garden behind the house.

The point is IF the inspector acted as portrayed then he got the reaction that he caused. IF the OP isn't telling the story as it happened I would imagine he would be in jail right now as the LEO would have charged him with brandishing.

The fact that he did not get charged with anything tells me that the inspector most likely did not feel that the OP threatened him with the gun.

As far as my comment about his shorts well... I would hope that the inspector realizes that in the future it is better to be ready to explain his presence in residential areas as people tend to be jumpy about strangers esp when they are taking pictures and acting out of the norm for the area. I know I would want to know why a NON official vehicle with a scrubby looking guy in it was sitting in the street and then if the guy starts taking pictures I would be very concerned. Esp in this economy with so many break-ins happening all the time.

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autosurgeon wrote:

I guess HankT I should not post my opinions on this board as they are not up to your standards.

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Huh?

This is a discussion forum. No need to poutily do the passive-agressive thang. Your posts of your opinions are welcome on OCDO.

No matter how weak (or strong) they are....

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Can't say you did anything wrong and actually handled it well. When looking at things like this, I usually try to put myself in the position of both parties as it helps to keep things in perspective.

You asked him to tell you who he worked for. Nothing wrong there, and actually a good idea. When the people posing as alternative gas company sales ripped off residents, the press said that company employee should identify themselves, and if you have any questions to call the company to verify who they were. He claimed to be working for someone, nothing wrong with verifying his story, especially since he was taking pics of your truck, and MIL's house. Nothing wrong with the guy taking the pics he was taking, but his response wasn't up to par.

What follow's is based on quotes by others, but I am addressing the Orriginal Poster.
HankT wrote:

That's where the beef started. With your demand for ID (company). I have to wonder, of course, just how polite you were in asking for that ID (company). What exactly and how exactly did you ask?

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Wrong. The man refused to identify the company he worked for. Without knowing who he worked for, the you cannot call the company to verify his story. Nothing wrong with confronting someone who is casing houses in the neighborhood. Of course, "What and How" it is asked is important however, with some people even the nicest of words have little effect.

Furthermore, you were walking away. That in no way constitutes "escalation". Following after someone (who is obviously suspicious) onto their private property, and then not leaving when asked, is "escalating".

freightman360 wrote:

...so i walked back to my truck to get my cell herd footsteps coming up behind me turned around to find this guy right behind me about 10 ft. i told him to stop and not come on the property he continued to come at me i backed up and put my truck hood between him and i grabbed my gun and had it half way out told him that i would defend myself and the cops are on the way ( saw the neighbor on the phone) then came the stare down...

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So, I just get yelled at by a LEO, and as he is walking away I start to follow him effectively chasing him down. Am I the only person who knows to not chase after a retreating person immediately after a conflict between him and myself? Me thinks some people have control issues.

When the inspector began following you, he then became the aggressor.


HankT wrote:

You're a little unclear in your description of the event as to what the camera guy did in following you. Did he attack you? Did he say anything threatening? Did he go on your MIL's property?

Unless I read some new details, I think you caused most of the intensity of the situation. I think you over-reacted. Clearly so.

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It really doesn't matter why the person was following. What matters is that, once he was told to stay off the MIL's property, he didn't.

What's chilling is that he didn't immediately back away after you told him you would defend yourself. That supplies a hint of aggression. On private property after being asked to leave. Not leaving after being told you would defend yourself. Even without the "staredown", it sounds like he was trying to intimidate you.



HankT wrote:

You had your "hand on your gun" and"had it half way out"--- because of a camera guy who was obviously not a threat.

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I've always told people, "If someone is attacking you, and you are pointing a gun at them, and they continue to advance toward you, then it's probably a safe bet that they are a danger to you."

If someone chases me down onto my property after me telling him I'm calling the police, then he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. If that same person remains on that same property after being told to remove himself, and being told I will defend myself, then he's been given a lot of grace. What that inspector did was exercise poor judgment. If someone tells you to leave their private property, YOU LEAVE WITHOUT ARGUMENT OR FAN FAIR! Most of the people on this board who are pro-OC understand this concept.


HankT wrote:

In answer to your question, I would have asked the guy why he was taking pics of my MIL's house. If he answered, I would've said, "OK." If he didn't, I would have gotten his car info and tag. I would not have done anything to create a physical confrontation, especially not with a gun.

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I agree with HankT on this one. It would have been good to ask why the inspector thought it necessary to take pics of the MIL's house, and your truck. However, a call to the company to verify the guys story is still in order. Most companies should be aware of this concept by now as there have been enough neighborhood scams to educate them on this matter.




HankT wrote:

Guns are for threats. Not guys with cameras.

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Anyone who chases me onto my property, and refuses to leave even after being told I will defend myself is going to be treated as a threat, and righteously so. Some people just don't like to respect other people's boundaries. Every once in a while, one of those people learns the hard way.


freightman360 wrote:

because of a camera guy who was obviously not a threat. how am i to know that he is not a threat. he fallowed me onto privet property to continue confronting me after asking several times for him to leave and him not that makes him a threat to my well being i didnt know if he had a wepon and the way he was acting and not wanting the cops involved that raised my suspisions evenmore...... and last i knew is you have to have permision to take pictures if you are going to make money from them and he didnt have mine or my mil's permision to take them.

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You did nothing wrong. Asking why he was taking those pics may have helped, but is really unnecessary as you could have just as easily asked the company when you called them. While I'm sure a lot of companies don't want residents calling them every time they send out an inspector, well.. that's just part of the business.

jeremy05 wrote:

sounds like YOU were way out of line at the start, meaning you caused the reactions to your actions. Seems like you could have initiated the conversation in another matter, maybe I wasn't there. Almost everyone seems to give the police a hard time when they REQUEST id from you, but when you ask a total stranger for ID and they refuse and you get all bent out of shape. Well how did it feel? The guy was breaking NO laws and was not doing anything ILLEGAL.

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Wow! Some people have some serious control issues. If I see someone taking pictures of my personal property, it isn't "out of line" to ask them what they are up to. For them to say that it's part of their job, but not tell me the company they work for is suspicious.

You did the right thing by calling the cops to let them sort it out. You also were well advised to treat him as a threat and to communicate to him that you would defend yourself. It sounds like he has some "issues". You may even seek charges against him for trespassing. For a simple misunderstanding, I wouldn't bother, but he demonstrated clear tendencies of agression, and open hostility in trying to intimidate you. Had he vacated your MIL's property upon request (or even just backed off of you personally), then I wouldn't say so, but what he did should be addressed.

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HankT wrote:

snip'

Pity. It's not exactlyauto surgery todeduce whathappened, even from the self-serving OP. OPperformed sub-optimally. Went to the gun for a non-threat.

One more case that supports the general anti position that citizens with guns will resort to gun to resolve minor, andI mean minor, disagreements/disputes.Classic.

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How do you know, Hank? Wait, you weren't there, you don't. You have exhibited a classic case of armchair quarterbacking. You're basing your argument on information that suits your bias, just as you are accusing others of doing so. Only one of us was there, in the situation, reading all the clues, and he acted accordingly. Nobody was hurt, thankfully. How could it end better?
I would be concerned about a random car, with a poorly dressed driver taking seemingly random pictures of my neighborhood as well. I would have gone out to ask questions. The basis of being able to carry for self protection is that we, as individuals, are ultimately responsible for our own protection. If we can not be allowed to "police" our own neighborhoods, crime rates will escalate, and we'll be at the mercy of the paid police, who may not respond for an hour. I know, I've called on break-ins.
It sounds like the OP posed a question, then retreated, while being followed aggressively, and still had the nerve to keep his handgun holstered. What's the problem?
If we are not allowed to be responsible for our own actions, or be allowed to make our own decisions, where does that leave us?

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autosurgeon wrote:

Guys we can say what we want from the description given. However we were not there to see the facial expressions on the blue car guys face or hear his tone. We can say the OP reacted wrong but when fight or flight kicks in and the adrenaline starts pumping things change.

I have had run ins with folks that are like the photo guy in this thread and they can be very scary in that they want to intimidate you and BC they think they are the alpha they throw their weight around.

If I was on the street taking pictures I would have no problem telling a person who asked me why I am there. By acting high and mighty the photographer set himself up for a fail IMOP.

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This is exactly it.

Insecure beta.

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kyleplusitunes wrote:

stay cool, remember, you're the one who is armed.

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Always good advice.

To the OP: I think you did fine. I think it's reasonable to have asked the guy what he was doing. (a stranger to the neighborhood who's dressed like a hood rat would raise my hackles too)

A calmly delivered explanation of why he was there would have probably allayed his concerns most likely. That guy didn't respond that way, he chose to be belligerent AND follow the OP to his own property continuing to be so.

I agree with the poster who mentioned getting in touch with the company he works for and let then know what happened.

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I only question the partial draw. Stuff happens and it happens quickly so I won't comment on what led up to it, what is important is that in that moment you were in fear of great harm. I would think simply being prepared to draw might have been sufficient.

Anyway, isn't it interesting how being mentally preparedfor thepossibility of taking someones life makes you violently sick. I was there once, lasted for hours, hope I never go back!

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kyleplusitunes wrote:

stay cool, remember, you're the one who is armed

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That's only great advice when one knows, without ANY doubt, that the aggressor is unarmed. People have been punched to death before. People have been stabbed with tiny knives concealed in the palm of the hand. People have been stabbed and killed with a pair of scissors hidden in the waist line.

The whole entire point of "I carry everywhere I go." - is because we do not always know who is armed and who is not armed.

So we go on- day after day- carrying everywhere- because just when you think someone's not- they are (armed).

So take that "stay cool because he doesn't have a gun" shit somewhere else. He could have been hiding the pistol anywhere. The OP never knew this man's intentions when the situation escalated.

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Its hard to comment as I was not there. The police showed up and you did not go to jail. To me that's a win. Playing arm chair quarter back after the situation is always easy. I've been in a position to defend myself and since I'm typing this I was successful. A key point to remember anybody within 30' of you can get to you the majority of times quicker than you can draw and fire. You made your decision, everyone lived, nobody went to jail. Now we all benefit from playing out the what if it was us scenario.

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sprinklerguy28 wrote:

Its hard to comment as I was not there. The police showed up and you did not go to jail. To me that's a win. Playing arm chair quarter back after the situation is always easy. I've been in a position to defend myself and since I'm typing this I was successful. A key point to remember anybody within 30' of you can get to you the majority of times quicker than you can draw and fire. You made your decision, everyone lived, nobody went to jail. Now we all benefit from playing out the what if it was us scenario.

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Good point.

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No harm no foul.