hand was on my gun

[jeremy05]

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jeremy05 wrote:

sounds like YOU were way out of line at the start, meaning you caused the reactions to your actions. Seems like you could have initiated the conversation in another matter, maybe I wasn't there. Almost everyone seems to give the police a hard time when they REQUEST id from you, but when you ask a total stranger for ID and they refuse and you get all bent out of shape. Well how did it feel? The guy was breaking NO laws and was not doing anything ILLEGAL.

Wow! Some people have some serious control issues. If I see someone taking pictures of my personal property, it isn't "out of line" to ask them what they are up to. No its not, but when you go getting all " butt hurt" when they dont answer your questions, dont be surprised. For them to say that it's part of their job, but not tell me the company they work for is suspicious. They could have just told you to " F-OFF its none of your business" Or just ignore you, or keep asking you if they are being detained......

What would you have done had the guy given no response, or just said I dont have to answer that? I have a feeling the OP would have gotten very mad, but I dont know him personally so I can just guess.


You did the right thing by calling the cops to let them sort it out. Yes that was the best choice, I personally would'nt have told him that you were calling the cops, because that really pisses people off.
You also were well advised to treat him as a threat and to communicate to him that you would defend yourself. Agreed It sounds like he has some "issues". You may even seek charges against him for trespassing. For a simple misunderstanding, I wouldn't bother, but he demonstrated clear tendencies of agression, and open hostility in trying to intimidate you. Had he vacated your MIL's property upon request (or even just backed off of you personally), then I wouldn't say so, but what he did should be addressed. yeah pretty much.

We can all pick this apart, but none of us were there so everything is opinions.

Hurray for arguing on the internet :celebrate

 

[jeremy05]

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autosurgeon wrote:

sprinklerguy28 wrote:

Its hard to comment as I was not there. The police showed up and you did not go to jail. To me that's a win. Playing arm chair quarter back after the situation is always easy. I've been in a position to defend myself and since I'm typing this I was successful. A key point to remember anybody within 30' of you can get to you the majority of times quicker than you can draw and fire. You made your decision, everyone lived, nobody went to jail. Now we all benefit from playing out the what if it was us scenario.

Good point.

+1

But this is a good place to play the what if game, for future encounters

 

[easy]

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freightman360 wrote:

well to start the day off was good got all 4 of my dogs licenced had a great day with my wife . went to visit her sister and thats when it all went to h*ll. went out to smoke a cig was sitting in my truck lil blue car pulled up no cause for concern guy gets out and starts taking pictures of the house across the street that didnt seem weird its for sale (forclosure) then he turns and starts taking pictures of my truck my mother in laws house the neighbors house and cars (ding ding ding) bells go off. exited my truck walked over and asked why he needed pictures of my truck and my mother in laws home. he ask if i wanted him to show me i said yes he threw some papers in my face and said something about an inspection.. i asked who he worked for and was told it was none of my bus. so i told him i was calling the police and then he got really ticked and asked why. i told him because he wouldnt identify himself. so i walked back to my truck to get my cell herd footsteps coming up behind me turned around to find this guy right behind me about 10 ft. i told him to stop and not come on the property he continued to come at me i backed up and put my truck hood between him and i grabbed my gun and had it half way out told him that i would defend myself and the cops are on the way ( saw the neighbor on the phone) then came the stare down i reached through the window got my phone dialed 911 and requested an officer was told they were on the way to stay away from the guy told her that i had my cpl and was armed and i would defend myself and was told to just stay calm lol . cops show up and identify the guy as an inspector for a law office that had a controlling intrest in the house across the street and he was just taking pictures of the neighbor hood for an apraisel.

officer asked whati carried (M&P .40) talked a little about that and the dumb dumb inspector and how close he came. they left i went and heaved havnt been that shook up in a while.

what would you have done????

Did The Police Ask For Your ID And /Or For His ID?

 

[ghostrider]

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jeremy05 wrote:

jeremy05 wrote:

sounds like YOU were way out of line at the start, meaning you caused the reactions to your actions. Seems like you could have initiated the conversation in another matter, maybe I wasn't there. Almost everyone seems to give the police a hard time when they REQUEST id from you, but when you ask a total stranger for ID and they refuse and you get all bent out of shape. Well how did it feel? The guy was breaking NO laws and was not doing anything ILLEGAL.

Wow! Some people have some serious control issues. If I see someone taking pictures of my personal property, it isn't "out of line" to ask them what they are up to. No its not, but when you go getting all " butt hurt" when they dont answer your questions, dont be surprised. Surprised for what? If I'm doing nothing wrong and someone tells me they are going to call the cops on me for taking pics in a neighborhood (legitimately for my job) I'll not be bothered. Probably even tell them where I'll be if the cops want to talk to me. I think the OP did the right thing at that point in walking away. For them to say that it's part of their job, but not tell me the company they work for is suspicious. They could have just told you to " F-OFF its none of your business" If someone had treated me in that irrational a manner, I would treat them cautiously, and then call the cops. That type of language is a type of violence, and does represent aggressive hostility. Or just ignore you, Had I actually initially approached the person (doubtful) I'd have probably responded the same way I usually do when someone ignores me. I'd have asked if they had heard me. or keep asking you if they are being detained......Since I am not a uniformed police officer, that would be another irrational behavior on their part, and treated as such in the above example.

What would you have done had the guy given no response, or just said I dont have to answer that? Explained above. I have a feeling the OP would have gotten very mad, but I dont know him personally so I can just guess.
There's those "issues" I was referring to. The OP told us what he would have done, because he did it. He said he would call the cops and walked away. Your bringing all the other stuff into the discussion makes it sound like you have some hostility of your own to go along with those control issues.

BTW:
We can speculate on the unstated variables all day long. Doing so only changes the circumstances from those stated in the OP's posts, and thus makes it an entirely different event. Going beyond is essentially a "straw man" argument.

You did the right thing by calling the cops to let them sort it out. Yes that was the best choice, I personally would'nt have told him that you were calling the cops, because that really pisses people off. I agree. Regardless of if it was intended to antagonize or not, it can have an adverse affect on some people, especially those who appear uncooperative, and irrational like this guy. It didn't used to be that way, but nowadays it isn't worth the chance.

It's also possible that the OP mentioned his intent to "call the cops" because he wanted to give the inspector a last chance to resolve things without the involvement of the police. It used to be that that's how things usually were done (resolve them without police involvement). Not so much anymore.

BTW: IF it was me, I probably wouldn't have approached the guy. Probably from lessons taught to us in our neighborhood by the police, but approaching a total stranger is not always the best thing to do. Of course it depends on circumstances. Let LE do their job. If they find something amiss, then they have the tools necessary. If nothing is amiss, then they have the tools necessary.


You also were well advised to treat him as a threat and to communicate to him that you would defend yourself. Agreed It sounds like he has some "issues". You may even seek charges against him for trespassing. For a simple misunderstanding, I wouldn't bother, but he demonstrated clear tendencies of agression, and open hostility in trying to intimidate you. Had he vacated your MIL's property upon request (or even just backed off of you personally), then I wouldn't say so, but what he did should be addressed. yeah pretty much.

We can all pick this apart, but none of us were there so everything is opinions.

Hurray for arguing on the internet :celebrate

Yep, that's the great thing about the internet. Most of that "arguing" I think often comes from different world view, rather than different view point. The good thing about the internet is that if people can well articulate those points, it allows us a different perspective that we may not have previously considered.

My comments in blue.

 

[JamesIan]

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When the OP asks what we would have done, no one gets to come back later and whine about armchair quarterbacking.

If he doesn't want our opinions, he shouldn't ask.

If we don't have all the facts, all we can do is make aguess based on what we are given and read between the lines as best we can.

 

[manicdevery]

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McX wrote:

me, i would have posted this on the draw or no draw thread in the wisconsin forum.. i think you did the right thing. he failed to identify himself, or his intent, and then advanced on you. i would have gone to the 'ready' position, and see how it played out. i'm glad to hear it wasn't a bad guy after you, and you came out of it ok. still a 'close one' in my book.

+1

 

[jeremy05]

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ghostrider wrote:

Lots of red and blue text

Nicely put.

 

[Evil Creamsicle]

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I've been on the 'picture taking' end before, and this guy definitely seems a suspicious type. Maybe he was just having a bad day or something, but he, from what I read, meets the typical description of someone casing a neighborhood for burglary.

I would have been cautious as well, and were my questions answered as yours were, I would have called the police. Better to be prepared for something that isn't happening then to not be prepared for something that is.

sic vis pacem, para bellum

 

[sprinklerguy28]

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JamesIan wrote:

When the OP asks what we would have done, no one gets to come back later and whine about armchair quarterbacking.

If he doesn't want our opinions, he shouldn't ask.

If we don't have all the facts, all we can do is make a guess based on what we are given and read between the lines as best we can.

Who said anyone was whining. I stated its easier to make a comment now then to act when the situation arises. You're right the best anyone can do is guess.

 

[kubel]

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I'm a photographer that does this sort of work. I drive a little blue car too. Never had a homeowner draw on me though.

The inspector can legally photograph anything he wants to, including your property. The exception to this is he cannot aim a telephoto lens into your windows (where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy), and he cannot trespass on your property without risk.

But if he's on public property (or on the property that he or his client has a vested interest in), he can photograph anything so long as there is no reasonable expectation of privacy.

 

[scot623]

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autosurgeon said "If you are going to be taking pictures in a residential neighborhood it is wise to be ready to explain why as people tend to be jumpy about it."

"If you are going to beopen carrying a pistolin a residential neighborhood it is wise to be ready to explain why as people tend to be jumpy about it."

I am all for OC...so let's be fair and even about other LEGAL activties that happen around us. If you don't like someone photographing your truck or house, call the cops. You don't confront them...they aren't breaking any laws. We don't like to be confronted because we aren't breaking any laws...see how that works?

My CPL instructor told me I am NEVER aloud to get in a verbal pissing match with anyone, I am armed so I have to be the bigger person and walk away. You certainly don't start a pissing match while armed.

 

[cmac1108]

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scot623 wrote:

autosurgeon said "If you are going to be taking pictures in a residential neighborhood it is wise to be ready to explain why as people tend to be jumpy about it."

"If you are going to beopen carrying a pistolin a residential neighborhood it is wise to be ready to explain why as people tend to be jumpy about it."

I am all for OC...so let's be fair and even about other LEGAL activties that happen around us. If you don't like someone photographing your truck or house, call the cops. You don't confront them...they aren't breaking any laws. We don't like to be confronted because we aren't breaking any laws...see how that works?

My CPL instructor told me I am NEVER aloud to get in a verbal pissing match with anyone, I am armed so I have to be the bigger person and walk away. You certainly don't start a pissing match while armed.

1st. all i did was ask why he was taking the pictures not trying to start a pi#@ing match with him just curious. he was the one that took it to the next level.

2nd i was the bigger man and walked away still not trying to have a pi#@ing match he was the one that came after me

 

[scot623]

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I wasn't trying to single you out. I was hoping to make our forum realize that we are often the ones who may be "scaring people" just by OCing and we don't want them or the cops bothering us(as well they shouldn't). So we have to extend that same courtesy to others, including photograhers and the like. So even though this gentleman was doing something you didn't like, it was certainly legal and you should have not asked him who he was or who he worked for(with what I can only assume was in an aggressive tone. if not...I apologize) Think how LEO's ask us who we are(ask for ID), what are we doing, ect. ect. I'm sure he gets hassled in his line of work all the time and just didn't feel like talking to you(as is his right). Everything that happened to you after that is not part of the point I was trying to make.

 

[1245A Defender]

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even this "disparity of force" is a misnomer,, im 6/1 175, trim and fit, but im not a trained fighter...

i really dont think i have to wait until ive been HIT once or alot,, when 1 good punch can knock a guy out!!

i think a gun ,, "shown up front", OCd, strong side, and "early on" in the "confrontation",, that i dont need to get attacked,, that its a "clear cut case" of "dont you dare escalate any more sh5t with me"!

you did exactly what YOU needed to do,, if any thing i would way you gave him too many chances to get to and hurt you.

he was drunk,, and you measured his danger to you just about right,,,

thanks the the story,, i have one too that happened in calif about 1984, but ive never told it yet.

probably a parking lot robbery, but i let him see the gun at about 25 ft away and he turned to go the other way.


ooops i shouda posted this in this other thread Close to having to shoot a man its in calif

 

[American Boy With a Gun]

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screw all the guys that said you did the wrong thing... ive seen people taking pictures of houses during the day...then 2 nights later the place gets robbed and someone ends up hurt or worse. If the guy wouldnt tell you who he worked for then that would of rang a bell for me too...personally i think that you did the right thing by calling the cops...gives em something to do besides harass people and you clarified the situation without anyone getting hurt...seems like a good run to me

 

[T Vance]

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.

 

[scot623]

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American Boy With a Gun wrote:

screw all the guys that said you did the wrong thing... ive seen people taking pictures of houses during the day...then 2 nights later the place gets robbed and someone ends up hurt or worse. If the guy wouldnt tell you who he worked for then that would of rang a bell for me too...personally i think that you did the right thing by calling the cops...gives em something to do besides harass people and you clarified the situation without anyone getting hurt...seems like a good run to me

So it's ok for the cops to harass someone who is legally doing their job but part of this forums existance is to complain out cops who harass us?!?? You think it's ok for a cop to harass a guy with a camera, but not a guy with a gun? We can't have it both ways. Just food for thought.

 

[ghostrider]

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scot623 wrote:

I wasn't trying to single you out. I was hoping to make our forum realize that we are often the ones who may be "scaring people" just by OCing and we don't want them or the cops bothering us(as well they shouldn't). So we have to extend that same courtesy to others, including photograhers and the like. So even though this gentleman was doing something you didn't like, it was certainly legal and you should have not asked him who he was or who he worked for(with what I can only assume was in an aggressive tone. if not...I apologize) Think how LEO's ask us who we are(ask for ID), what are we doing, ect. ect. I'm sure he gets hassled in his line of work all the time and just didn't feel like talking to you(as is his right). Everything that happened to you after that is not part of the point I was trying to make.

Huh!

First, Comparing this to an LEO requesting ID of someone is entirely apples to oranges. Few people on this board have a problem with LEO "requesting" ID, and though people keep trying to interject it into the convo, it's still a straw man argument. Furthermore, OC is not suspicious when a person is just simply walking along or whatever, while the inspectors actions were. Even then, the OP tried to resolve things without calling the police.

Second, Suggesting he shouldn't ask who the inspector was working for? There's nothing wrong with asking for the company name so one can verify the veracity of the photographer's claim of employment. Furthermore, taking pics of the truck should be brought up with that company. Most companies by now shouldn't have a problem with this, and should downright expect it. The only problem with it I can see is maybe if the inspector is self employed, and there would be no one to verify with.

Like the other poster mentioned, this type of stuff has been used for scams in the past. Even though this person may have actually been there under a legitimate pretense, his actions still indicate something is wrong. It wouldn't be unrealistic for the inspector to be on the job for another job later. Times are hard, and things are going to start getting worse. It pays to be vigilante.

 

[ghostrider]

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scot623 wrote:

American Boy With a Gun wrote:

screw all the guys that said you did the wrong thing... ive seen people taking pictures of houses during the day...then 2 nights later the place gets robbed and someone ends up hurt or worse. If the guy wouldnt tell you who he worked for then that would of rang a bell for me too...personally i think that you did the right thing by calling the cops...gives em something to do besides harass people and you clarified the situation without anyone getting hurt...seems like a good run to me

So it's ok for the cops to harass someone who is legally doing their job but part of this forums existance is to complain out cops who harass us?!??! We can't have it both ways. This is the kind of statement that can hurt our cause to OC.

It's a straw man argument.

Both ways.

Verifying the purpose of the actions of the photag is not harassment. If it went beyond that, then it would be harassment.

Furthermore, if you tink this forums "existence is to complain about cops who harass us?", then you are ill informed, and it's no wonder you can't see the difference.

 

[turbodog]

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scot623 wrote:

My CPL instructor told me I am NEVER aloud to get in a verbal pissing match with anyone, I am armed so I have to be the bigger person and walk away. You certainly don't start a pissing match while armed.

+1