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Pepper Spray Police Put On Leave

09jisaac

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SoverignAxe- Personaly, I find 'democracies' to be quite offensive.:mad:

The system of laws under which we are ruled over with in the U.S.A. is called a Republic. There is no mention of the word democracy in The COTUS or The Declaration of Independence, for good reasons too.

Offensive??? Don't get hurt over someone calling our government a democracy. Our government has changed to fit either of them pretty well. Besides the part of the supreme power vested in people.

Democracy defined by dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy)

de·moc·ra·cy
noun, plural -cies.
1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

or

Republic defined by dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/republic)
re·pub·lic
noun
1. a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.
2. any body of persons viewed as a commonwealth.
3. a state in which the head of government is not a monarch or other hereditary head of state.

And according to most sources:
(http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html)

The a republic has protected rights that the majority (or anyone) can't take away from the minority (or anyone), but it seems like the rights of anyone can be swept away with the stroke of a pen. So maybe "democracy" describes our way better that "republic" does anymore. Mob rule effects us more often than the constitution does.
 
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SovereignAxe

Regular Member
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Elizabethton, TN
SoverignAxe- Personaly, I find 'democracies' to be quite offensive.:mad:

The system of laws under which we are ruled over with in the U.S.A. is called a Republic. There is no mention of the word democracy in The COTUS or The Declaration of Independence, for good reasons too.

*facepalm*

thank you, jisaac for setting that one straight.

Also, I didn't say we were a democracy. I said "democratic power to the people," as in not with corporations. But to argue over using the term democracy to describe our country is asinine.
 

Tawnos

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SoverignAxe- Personaly, I find 'democracies' to be quite offensive.:mad:

The system of laws under which we are ruled over with in the U.S.A. is called a Republic. There is no mention of the word democracy in The COTUS or The Declaration of Independence, for good reasons too.

You must really hate local elections, since you find democracies to be offensive. Additionally, any constitutional amendment to the people must also provoke your ire.
 

SirTiger

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Nov 5, 2010
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Location
Richmond
So...saying right and wrong is not "politically correct", eh?

Not what I'm saying. Do you really believe a permit would have been granted for month long protests in Zucotti (sp?) Park? cause I dont. Anyway, a statement to start... Not listening/ acting when the government tells you to do OR not to do something is not in itself illegal usually, I'm not advocating breaking the law (Duh.) But I assume your "right way" refers to OWS permits, attitude, and mentality or even general police encounters that you see on the news. All I'm saying is... It is not unheard of for a government entity to block out things thats my give them trouble or be unfavorable for the area. So Its difficult when you use such concrete terms like right and wrong as if you have it all figured out.

Oh also, why would you think I am "PC" I hope you didnt come up with that little tid bit of info because of that triangle over there. That'd be a shame.
 

skidmark

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Valhalla
Maybe it's time to clear some of the air around here.

From my personal point of view it really does not matter what the OWS folks are protesting or what they want to accomplish by their protest. What matters to me is how they are going about their protest.

Everyone seems to be trying to tell me that the OWS crowd either has a constitutional right to do whatever they are doing or that they are engaging in civil disobedience - but mostly it seems that everybody is trying to tell me that both are taking place simultaneously. Well, I've got a news flash for you - the two are mutually exclusive.

The constitutional right to peaceably seek redress of grievances against the government requires that you obey all the existing laws, and all the lawful orders of the constituted government authorities, regardless of how bad or onerous those laws and orders are. That would include orders to leave the place where you are currently located in your attempt to seek redress of grievances against the government. (Or to take down your tents, or to get out of the middle of the street, etc.)

Civil disobedience is the calculated and purposeful disobedience of the specific law/rule/regulation you are unhappy with, while making every effort possible to avoid violating other laws or damaging property in ways that are not directly related to disobeying the law you are protesting. For example, Ghandi and his followers marched to the sea and made salt in diirect opposition to a law forbidding them to do so. They avoided trespassing on private property, or looting/pillaging along the way, and refrained from assaulting each other during their journey. They also maintained general sanitation (at least for the 3rd world culture). When they blocked the British government offices they refrained from assaulting the workers who enforced the very laws they were protesting against - they just made it so that the workers would literally have to trample on the Indian people in order to get into their offices to administer laws that were tranpling on the Indian people. The American civil rights movement was one long series of civil disobedience ranging from sitting in seats that were legally forbidden to them to refusing to ride busses in order to bankrupt the transportation system - all without physically damaging the lunch counters and busses. The plan of the Indian Uprising and the civil rights movement was for the government whose actions were being protested against to be the side that resorted to force and violence. And right on cue the government used force and violence to enforce laws that were being protested against. In other words, a central tenent of the protest was non-violence - not the open advocating of killing a cop trying to arrest you.

OWS veers away from the legacies of the civil disobedience concept in many ways, but most importantly it does so by having almost no focus on seeking redress of grievances against the government's action - at best it wants the government to impose onerous (by current standards) regulation on private enterprise and private citizens to "cure" alleged defects in private contracts (taking the student loan issue for the example). The folks at UCD were not protesting against government acts, which is the only right of protest guaranteed by the Constitution. You cannot call the government's refusal to interfere in a private contract a government action, as the government has no basic business attempting to modify private contracts by fiat unless you want to have a government operating along the lines of the fascist philosophy. But I hear that OWS and the liberals and the conservatives all consider fascism to be bad.

In an attempt to bring this to some sort of closure -

It is apparent from their own pronouncements that OWS is seeking redress of grievances against private enterprise rather than government. It is apparent from theor own pronouncements and behavior that OWS wants the government to interfere by fiat in private contracts. It is apparent by their own pronouncements and behavior that OWS does not follow the precepts of non-violence as a means of demonstrating the overbearing/crushing/evil behavior of those they claim are oppressing them.

And finally, it is apparent that OWS is not willing to suffer the logical consequences of their acts. If they believe that the laws that say they cannot "occupy" are unconstitutional they "should" be willing to go to jail as a consequence of violating those laws in order to demonstrate/prove the unconstitutionality of the laws, or to generate support for a change of the laws regardless of constitutionality. OWS appears to do everything to avoid being arrested, and resists when the arm of the law actually takes hold of them.

stay safe.
 

HandyHamlet

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Terra, Sol
Well my long winded friend. I'll remind you that you made this a bigger issue than a video of protesters getting maced. or are you making a sweeping generalization?

Is anyone else cognizant of the problem being something other than that the cops used OC on the demonstrators?

....



And finally, it is apparent that OWS is not willing to suffer the logical consequences of their acts. ...

Speaking in broad generalizations? Or about the video?

Just wondering how getting an industrial can of mace dumped on you is a "logical consequence" of peacefully refusing to get up and move? Is expecting to be arrested logical? Absolutely. If we are talking about the video.

OWS appears to do everything to avoid being arrested, and resists when the arm of the law actually takes hold of them.

Huge generalization again or talking about the video? 'Cause the video shows some kids sitting on sidewalk with their heads covered.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
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May 21, 2006
Messages
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Valhalla
I doubt the police had the lawfull rigt to order them to leave, what ever happened to the right to peacefull protest. I think those morons should occupy a job not the streets but o well, what the police did was outright assault with a weapon.

When a Chinese couple petitioned to have their offspring's name recorded as Wright, they were denied with the observation that two Wongs don't make a Wright.

In the situation being discussed, we have the same problem.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
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Messages
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Valhalla
I doubt the police had the lawfull rigt to order them to leave, what ever happened to the right to peacefull protest. I think those morons should occupy a job not the streets but o well, what the police did was outright assault with a weapon.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The right is to peaceably assemble to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. The right is not to trespass, whether you do it peaceably or forceably. And it is to seek redress of grievances against the government - not against Big Corporations or Big Banks or any other person/thing that you claim has done something to make you unhappy as opposed to the government actually violating either its own constituted law(s) or the right(s) it has previously recognized as existing beyond its authority to restrict/remove.

As for whether or not the cops had the lawful right to order them to leave - do we really have to go through both criminal and civil trespass definitions and the powers of the police to enforce complaints of trespass? They actually make law students spend hours on the subject and I'm not going to gve a crash course here.

Regarding your view that the cops committed an assault with a weapon - first of all it would be a battery rather than an assault. Second, I urge you to review the current state of both the law and 8th Amendment regarding the use of force in arrest and in crowd/civil disturbance control. If you are not happy with the current state of affairs I suggest you seek legislative changes or gain standing before an appropriate court where you can seek a decision that would effect the change(s) you desire.

stay safe.
 

Tawnos

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Washington
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The right is to peaceably assemble to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
No, the right is to peaceably assemble -COMMA- AND to petition the government for redress of grievances. Learn to read.
 

jbone

Regular Member
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Messages
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WA
Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?.

I thought I did!


But anyway, you should read skidmark's post #26 & 29. He does an excellent job of explaining the situation at hand with OWS. OWS falsely claiming constitutional rights in order to trample, invade private property, trespass, destroy, and inflict harm, prevent movement, other’s prosperity, and subject others to unsanitary conditions is manure.
 
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HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Terra, Sol
But anyway, you should read skidmark's post #26 & 29. He does an excellent job of explaining the situation at hand with OWS. OWS falsely claiming constitutional rights in order to trample, invade private property, trespass, destroy, and inflict harm, prevent movement, other’s prosperity, and subject others to unsanitary conditions is manure. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Really? Every single one of them?

Like this hippie?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkOMD0D2FIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-sdO3SSRyQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QoNP5RhKnE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhw1znI9VXg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p_pj00Wyhs&feature=related




The simple fact of the matter is members like you and skidmark are just engaging in the same exact propaganda as everyone else on either side. Just throwing out huge generalizations. When the truth lies somewhere in that murky grey area everyone is choosing to ignore.


Mixin' the kool aid, passing out the kool aid, drinkin' the kool aid.

:banghead:


Never lose sight of what you witness here on this forum. Staunch supporters of the 2nd Amendment and supposed supporters of the Constitution sell out the first chance they get. The brain washing is so complete. 2A supporters exuberantly backing, making apologies for the actions of one of the most corrupt paramilitary forces we have. And one of the most evil, corrupt politicians ever. An evil tyrant who is the 2nd Amendments worst nightmare no less. Why? Because the 1st Amendment is just something for smelly hippies.
 
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jbone

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Messages
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WA
Are you for real, of course you are!
You sling the word Propaganda and then fill your post with men in uniform, parading them as pillars of the community that must know, and we should follow. Dude! That was a 55 gallon drum you dispensed your Kool-Aid from. What a hypocrite, your entire post becomes words with no substance. Quick turn about and look in the mirror Sir, you are the very evil you speak of.
 

HandyHamlet

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Messages
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Hey, we have a winner!


Propaganda. Anyone can do it.

fill your post with men in uniform, parading them as pillars of the community that must know, and we should follow.

Your words. I just asked you if he was a hippie.




p.s. As far as the man in uniform... He is just proving my point that this is not just a bunch of smelly hippies as certian kool aid drinkers would lead us to believe. That's all.


Has the guy in uniform done any of this?

trample, invade private property, trespass, destroy, and inflict harm, prevent movement, other’s prosperity, and subject others to unsanitary conditions is manure.



Everything else is your indoctrination showing. Thanks for proving my point. Drink on.
:lol:
 
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09jisaac

Regular Member
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Louisa, Kentucky
No, the right is to peaceably assemble -COMMA- AND to petition the government for redress of grievances. Learn to read.

I'm almost 100% sure that whoever typed that knows how to read.

You have to realize, most men who write laws are very smart. They make laws vague intentionally. The real separators are the semi-colons. The comma is just separating the sentence. The right is to (peaceably assemble/petition) the government for redress of grievances.
 

Tawnos

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I'm almost 100% sure that whoever typed that knows how to read.

You have to realize, most men who write laws are very smart. They make laws vague intentionally. The real separators are the semi-colons. The comma is just separating the sentence. The right is to (peaceably assemble/petition) the government for redress of grievances.

The fact is, the right of the people to peaceably assemble is both separate and joined to the right to petition. If the law meant for the right to peaceably assemble were only for the purpose of petitioning for redress, the law would read "the right of the people peaceably to assemble to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The fact that there is a separation there, whether as a comma or the conjunction "and", means that neither are wholly reliant upon the action of the other. That is, one could petition the government for redress of grievance without a peaceable assembly. Similarly, one could peaceably assemble without petitioning. Finally, one can gather and petition, as OWS largely is.

Of course, this goes beyond the fact he's either too stupid to understand or too dishonest to acknowledge that a political protest which expresses dissatisfaction towards the government's policies leading to broadening social disparity IS a protest against the government and not merely against people. FFS, he wrote that grievances are "government actually violating either its own constituted law(s) or the right(s) it has previously recognized as existing beyond its authority to restrict/remove." Does he not understand what grievances are? From dictionary.com: "noun 1. a wrong considered as grounds for complaint, or something believed to cause distress". Nowhere in the first amendment does it state that they must be rights that exist or constituted laws. It simply says the people have the right to peacefully, publicly, get together to ask for government change for things that make them unhappy.

This is simple, and he's wrong. You don't have to agree with OWS to see how thoroughly their rights are being violated.
 

09jisaac

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Louisa, Kentucky
The fact is, the right of the people to peaceably assemble is both separate and joined to the right to petition. If the law meant for the right to peaceably assemble were only for the purpose of petitioning for redress, the law would read "the right of the people peaceably to assemble to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The fact that there is a separation there, whether as a comma or the conjunction "and", means that neither are wholly reliant upon the action of the other. That is, one could petition the government for redress of grievance without a peaceable assembly. Similarly, one could peaceably assemble without petitioning. Finally, one can gather and petition, as OWS largely is.

Of course, this goes beyond the fact he's either too stupid to understand or too dishonest to acknowledge that a political protest which expresses dissatisfaction towards the government's policies leading to broadening social disparity IS a protest against the government and not merely against people. FFS, he wrote that grievances are "government actually violating either its own constituted law(s) or the right(s) it has previously recognized as existing beyond its authority to restrict/remove." Does he not understand what grievances are? From dictionary.com: "noun 1. a wrong considered as grounds for complaint, or something believed to cause distress". Nowhere in the first amendment does it state that they must be rights that exist or constituted laws. It simply says the people have the right to peacefully, publicly, get together to ask for government change for things that make them unhappy.

This is simple, and he's wrong. You don't have to agree with OWS to see how thoroughly their rights are being violated.

I am not arguing with what you said here ^^^^. This is what my point was. The right to peaceably assemble and/or petition the government. I think skidmark was saying that they're not protesting the government, but the businesses.
 

Grapeshot

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I am not arguing with what you said here ^^^^. This is what my point was. The right to peaceably assemble and/or petition the government. I think skidmark was saying that they're not protesting the government, but the businesses.

Ah so, someone sees the difference.
 

jbone

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Messages
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WA
Hey, we have a winner!


Propaganda. Anyone can do it.



Your words. I just asked you if he was a hippie.




p.s. As far as the man in uniform... He is just proving my point that this is not just a bunch of smelly hippies as certian kool aid drinkers would lead us to believe. That's all.


Has the guy in uniform done any of this?





Everything else is your indoctrination showing. Thanks for proving my point. Drink on.
:lol:

What a deceitful, a complete lack of integrity on your part in the dishonest presentation what has been discussed. Playing a game of twister while drunk on your own brand of lies, I find you unpatriotic, appalling, and very socialist in your tongue. Put that in you pipe and smoke it at your next fill of occupy for the wrong reason. :lol:
 

HandyHamlet

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What a deceitful, a complete lack of integrity on your part in the dishonest presentation what has been discussed. Playing a game of twister while drunk on your own brand of lies, I find you unpatriotic, appalling, and very socialist in your tongue. Put that in you pipe and smoke it at your next fill of occupy for the wrong reason. :lol:

Lots of words addressing nothing.

Never lose sight of what you witness here on this forum. Staunch supporters of the 2nd Amendment and supposed supporters of the Constitution sell out the first chance they get. The brain washing is so complete. 2A supporters exuberantly backing, making apologies for the actions of one of the most corrupt paramilitary forces we have. And one of the most evil, corrupt politicians ever. An evil tyrant who is the 2nd Amendments worst nightmare no less. Why? Because the 1st Amendment is just something for smelly hippies.

Thanks for proving this to be true.
 
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