1911 Carry Condition

[marshaul]

Just my 2C

Hey, thanks for your perspective.

One of these days I will own a Hi-Power.

 

[Greg Bradburn]

Another reason to carry in condition 1:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?88604-Reason-to-Carry-One-in-the-Chamber

 

[marshaul]

Another reason to carry in condition 1:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?88604-Reason-to-Carry-One-in-the-Chamber

Or condition 2.

Better to say, another reason NOT to carry in condition 3, which is obviously the worst.

 

[Gunslinger]

It is not a moot point for a couple of reasons.
1. you are assuming that every jackass who lowers his hammer will have his finger off the trigger.
2. You yourself mention the danger the instant the trigger is pulled.

3. The MANUFACTURES state that damage can happen to the gun, AND it is unsafe.

If a person is not confident enough to carry your firearm in the correct ready manner then they dont need to be carrying.

It is a "moot point" because with the larger safety there is no reason to carry other than condition 1. Jackasses are always going to be jackasses. I trust Darwin to remedy that eventually. What manufacturer are you referring to that says 'damage' can occur to the pistol and what damage? Carrying condition 2 is not unsafe. Going from full to half cock, as I said, is potentially. Again, I don't advocate it--especially on modern safety equipped pistols, simply mention it has been practiced by professionals on the HP for many years.

 

[Gunslinger]

Hey, thanks for your perspective.

One of these days I will own a Hi-Power.

$800 on Gallery of Guns for the 75th Ann edition. Couldn't resist. Will never replace my 69C, but I'll shoot it a lot more. The older one is too valuable now, although it would be the gun I would go to first with an intruder.

 

[eye95]

Carrying in condition two may not be unsafe. Putting a 1911 into condition two is.

 

[Gunslinger]

Carrying in condition two may not be unsafe. Putting a 1911 into condition two is.

Thought I said that.

 

[eye95]

Thought I said that.

You made a reference to going from full-cock to half-cock. That would not technically be putting in condition two. So I assumed that you were not talking about putting a 1911 into condition two. (Yeah, I know. Ass-u-me.)

Carrying at half-cock would be a separate issue, but IMO is even more foolish than condition two. Half-cock in a 1911 was never designed as a carry safety. It is protection against one's thumb slipping off the hammer (when cocking the firearm out of condition two) and the hammer falling on a chambered round. Experts advise against the deliberate use of half-cock because it is easy to think one is in half-cock when the hammer is really resting on a ridge, not the half-cock notch. Also, the ridge of the half-cock notch can wear away, removing the barrier between half-cock and hammer-down.

 

[Vegassteve]

It is a "moot point" because with the larger safety there is no reason to carry other than condition 1. Jackasses are always going to be jackasses. I trust Darwin to remedy that eventually. What manufacturer are you referring to that says 'damage' can occur to the pistol and what damage? Carrying condition 2 is not unsafe. Going from full to half cock, as I said, is potentially. Again, I don't advocate it--especially on modern safety equipped pistols, simply mention it has been practiced by professionals on the HP for many years.

Well if you read up a few posts. I posted word for word from Colt and Kimber.

The second post on this page.

 

[Sonora Rebel]

This thread comes up every couple weeks. The opinions are the same, and the same slightly incorrect facts need to be corrected for history's sake every time. I wish people could search.



Secondarily, and only after the army requested the addition of a thumb safety (not the grip safety, as is frequently and erroneously repeated -- see the 1910 prototype) for use by cavalry troops. Condition 2 was the primary intended mode of carry by JMB, unpopular today though that may be.

This really isn't open to dispute. If 5 seconds of looking at the design don't reveal this truth, JMB's patent application should take care of it:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...911-carriers&p=1449717&viewfull=1#post1449717



Try it out with an empty gun. The grip safety prevents the trigger from depressing unless it is depressed by the palm.

The 1911A went to many who were 'imprinted' with the reflex action of thumbing the hammer of an SAA .45. All this 'Condition' stuff was never heard of 'till Jeff Cooper made it up sometime back in the early '60's as I recall. Back then... while on watch we carried loaded on half cock notch. (Condition 2). In 'Nam I carried half-cock notch (flying). It's not brain surgery to decock a loaded 1911A1. It takes two hands tho. All the guys I knew from WWII and Korea said they usually carried on 'the notch'. 'cause it's faster, quieter and... that's the way they trained. These days I carry Cond 1... but still prefer Cond 2.

 

[Gunslinger]

Well if you read up a few posts. I posted word for word from Colt and Kimber.

The second post on this page.

I had overlooked it, thanks. SIG has no such reference for its 1911s, two of which I own. Remember, I am primarily talking about a Hi-Power, not a 1911 clone, and in neither of my two Browning manuals, circa 1969 and 2010 is the half cock position warned against. As to falling off the sear perch, I highly doubt there is enough force to ignite a primer at that distance. In any other event, the Kimber, SIG and Colts which are Series 80 still would not fire unless the trigger was past the reset point.

 

[Gunslinger]

The 1911A went to many who were 'imprinted' with the reflex action of thumbing the hammer of an SAA .45. All this 'Condition' stuff was never heard of 'till Jeff Cooper made it up sometime back in the early '60's as I recall. Back then... while on watch we carried loaded on half cock notch. (Condition 2). In 'Nam I carried half-cock notch (flying). It's not brain surgery to decock a loaded 1911A1. It takes two hands tho. All the guys I knew from WWII and Korea said they usually carried on 'the notch'. 'cause it's faster, quieter and... that's the way they trained. These days I carry Cond 1... but still prefer Cond 2.

If I hadn't been strapped into a fighter, I would have carried my Hi-Power condition 2, as well. But inertia firing pins don't GAS if the trigger is pulled when 12 Gs are put on them...Had it happened, once hitting the ground that's the second thing I would have done. After puking, of course...like I said, as well, training, practice and common sense.

 

[marshaul]

It's not brain surgery to decock a loaded 1911A1. It takes two hands tho.

Hey, Sonora Rebel, I always like to hear first hand experiences of carrying the 1911 in combat.

Have you read JMB's patent? Take a look at page 7, paragraph beginning at line 8.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Nd...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Interestingly enough, even though I had to have this pointed out to me, the 1911 has always been designed to be decocked with one hand. Pulling the hammer all the way back with the thumb depresses the grip safety, and the trigger can then be pulled, and the hammer lowered with the thumb.

Now, it's definitely safer to do it with two hands, but it is possible to do it with one quite easily. Give it a try!

 

[WCrawford]

Condition 0 also works, and the gun still won't fire unless you want it to (pull the trigger).

I don't carry a 1911 and I have not fired one in over 20 years. And that was just to get rid of several dozen rounds of .45 left over from the qualification range I was working as a young soldier. So, could you explain for those of us that are not knowledgeable about 1911s what Condition 0 is on them?

 

[elixin77]

I don't carry a 1911 and I have not fired one in over 20 years. And that was just to get rid of several dozen rounds of .45 left over from the qualification range I was working as a young soldier. So, could you explain for those of us that are not knowledgeable about 1911s what Condition 0 is on them?

condition 0 is ready to fire, nothing else to do except pull the trigger
" 1 is ready to fire, but safety is on
" 2 is ready to fire, but hammer is down
" 3 is not ready to fire, but magazine is inserted with no round in the chamber
" 4 is not ready to fire, magazine is completely removed from gun and no round in chamber

 

[WCrawford]

condition 0 is ready to fire, nothing else to do except pull the trigger
" 1 is ready to fire, but safety is on
" 2 is ready to fire, but hammer is down
" 3 is not ready to fire, but magazine is inserted with no round in the chamber
" 4 is not ready to fire, magazine is completely removed from gun and no round in chamber

Thanks, I understood Conditions 1-4.

Guess that makes my Glock always in Condition 0, with no possibility of Condition 1 or 2.

 

[GlockMeisterG21]

Condition 3 is unwise to me for 2 reasons. It takes too long IMO and your gun could jam up, missfeed, etc. while racking the slide. Many proponents of Condition 3 will say "well that's never happened to me in practice" to wich my reply would be that the extra stress of a lif/death situation could cause even the best trained person to make a mistake.

Putiing a 1911 into Condition 2 is just plain unsafe IMO. Carrying it that way is likely not except to say that you must now cock the gun to fire. Under stressful conditions, even that seemingly simple action could be done improperly and could cause a problem.

I really like the KISS philosophy, Keep It Simple Stupid. To me the only thing more simple that my 1911 in Condition 1 is my Glock 17.

 

[eye95]

Thanks, I understood Conditions 1-4.

Guess that makes my Glock always in Condition 0, with no possibility of Condition 1 or 2.

The conditions don't really apply to Glocks. They were defined around the design of the 1911. If you had to apply them, Glocks are normally carried in a hybrid of conditions 1 and 0. A safety still has to be deactivated, but that deactivation is integrated into the act of pulling the trigger.

On edit: It would be arguable that condition two is part of the hybrid as the firearm is not fully cocked until partway through the trigger-pull.

 

[.45acp]

Even if you do train properly, there is still that extra 1.5 seconds of you doing something before you can even prepare to get a shot off.

Also, keep in mind that you will have adrenaline pumping through you, and you will not be able to do small motor functions easily, even if you do train.

There have been several training scenarios where people who are carrying in condition 3 are unable to pull off a 'shot' before they get stabbed, if not multiple times.

What if your second arm is wounded, and your unable to function with it? How are you going to draw the slide on the gun? Remove all extraneous variables, and the only thing that you'll have to do is thumb the safety.

Not to mention if the attack takes place at knife or hand to hand range where you are forced to use one hand/arm to fend off the attacker you will not get the draw, rack and shoot off.

Condition 3 or the Israeli style draw, is only an option if you work for the Israeli secret squirrels or the state that you live in does not allow loaded carry. Otherwise condition 3 makes no sense and has several major detractors for the intent of carrying for SD.

That said, it makes no difference to me how one carries.

 

[Sonora Rebel]

Hey, Sonora Rebel, I always like to hear first hand experiences of carrying the 1911 in combat.

Have you read JMB's patent? Take a look at page 7, paragraph beginning at line 8.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Nd...urce=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Interestingly enough, even though I had to have this pointed out to me, the 1911 has always been designed to be decocked with one hand. Pulling the hammer all the way back with the thumb depresses the grip safety, and the trigger can then be pulled, and the hammer lowered with the thumb.Now, it's definitely safer to do it with two hands, but it is possible to do it with one quite easily. Give it a try!

It can be done one handed, but offers the possibility of an AD. (Winchester lever guns can do this too.) I've never known or heard of an actual AD with a 1911A1 carried in Cond 2 (halfcock notch). With a military shoulder holster, (or any cross strap or thumb break retainer)... the hammer tends to hang up in the strap when carried Cond 1. I use a Serpa now, but I have others where I whittled the retention strap so it wouldn't hang. It's also difficlt to re-button a thumb break with the hammer back. With the original M1914 flap holster it doesn't matter, but the M7/M9 shoulder rig strap will 'hang'. This is the sort worn by aircrew and AFV guys... tankers 'n such. I still have both types and a cavalry varient of the M1914 that swivels. My association with the M1911A1 goes back before Jeff Cooper wrote his book... or at last before anybody that I knew of ever heard of it or him. I was taught to shoot the 1911A1 one handed and still do. Point shooting... 'cause range habits do not equate well to combat. Magazines are reloadable but also expendable. You drop them, reload and move on. You look at the target 'n not the gun. It's loud... practice w/o attenuation 'n you won't flinch in the real deal. Try to shoot from some other position than behind a range stand or bench... and do it while moving. Be deliberate in your aim, movement and concentration. I don't care what's PC or what all the 'lawyers' say... Shoot to kill (CM or best azimuth) if and when you must shoot. Wounding is a result of poor aim and control.