20 yo friend pulled over... gun taken.

[cato]

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LEO 229 wrote:

cato wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Your stoppedfor a broken tail light and the police observe $40,000 in $10 and $20 bills in a laundry bag in your back seat.

Can they seize it?

I hope not unless there is evidence it was used in or derived from a criminal action.

Off Topic...

Cato.. you should know this!!

YES!! You can seize it and make them prove where it came from. Drug transactions deal in small funds. NOBODY carries around cash in this amount.. NOBODY!! They could also be evading taxes and not reporting all their cash transactions at their business.

It is a known fact that drug couriers move drugs in one direction and then move the cash in the other. It is highly probable that the money is from an illegal enterprise.

Unless the person can prove where they got it... It is going to be hard to get it back. Once I run the dog over it.. if he hits on it for drugs.. they money will NEVER be returned.

If they withdrew it from a bank.... they will have their receipt.

I know, the state can do a lot of things that then a citizen has to prove their innocence to get their property back(well gotten or ill gotten). Still doesn't make it right when judged against a higher principled standard of conduct by state agents. I don't like justifying the means by the end.

The fact that I may take $10,000+ in cash for a lawful purpose shouldn't make me suspected of anything because some bad people deal in cash. Case in point. I bought a house several years ago and had to move $15,000 from one bank account to another for a transaction to occur at the latter bank that day. It had to happen that day. Even cashiers checks now have temp. holds so I moved it cash in hand. Now if I'd had gotten stopped and a cop saw I was a cop, armed and with 15,000 cash what is he going to think I'm up too? Add the fact I was in a rental car as mine was in the shop and that means I'm guilty in his eyes. The dog is going to be called and who knows how they'll write the report. The dog points so I loose my deposit! What a mess that would have been.

A higher standard of evidence of guilt should be used before taking property as evidence.

Out here the CA DOJ has seized stripped AR lower receivers (ones that are legal to buy) and held them for three years as "evidence" just because they didn't like the fact that people have been bringing them into the state. The owners will get them back I think but not after spending 10X their value to shove it in DOJ's face on principle!

 

[para_org]

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72Malibu wrote:

Well, I'm getting more unsettled by the month about my income being digitized to 1s and 0s. I've actually started thinking about finding a way to keep my funds in more tangible form... which would potentially mean keeping and carrying large sums of cash. There would be no receipts to carry along or anything, which then apparently would make me a suspect of foul play.

I have been noticing a trend more toward "guilty until proven innocent" myself lately. The recent speeding ticket I got and following (first time) court experience left that taste in my mouth. Having a motto as such, then having a system that seems to act to the contrary is unsettling.

I'm saying that it applies to a few, not the whole law enforcement and justice system and I'm not placing the blame on anybody in particular. The way society is going nowadays it can be understandable why the justice system seems to be functioning this way. Finding and fixing the root cause can prove to be difficult. The amount of crime going up makes it more likely for the justice system to assume someone's guilty. The cause of crime going up could be a factor in modern day "liberal" parenting producing troubled offspring, and so on and so forth or something else.

It still doesn't justify people being treated as guilty until proven innocent, but it makes it somewhat understandable. Along the lines somewhere someone has to give the other the benefit of the doubt, I think people are reluctant to do that out of fear the one time they do, they may have just let a potential BG slip through their fingers, or they could end up in harm's way.

It is GREAT that you are 'unsettled', as then you can begin to educate yourself so you can protect yourself.

For me it seems altogether too easy to create more laws and regulations which makes more crime and criminals. And with restrictions on who(m) I can give my money to in the election process, the politicians that create these problems are more entrenched.

And yeah, as you point out, tracing money has never been easier. Sadly what it REALLY means for us all is that those who will do the tracing REALLY have no damn good reason to do so. After all 'they' will not be solving any crimes tracing my money and 'they' will be just be a worthless pain in my rear while doing so.

Sigh.....time for some real change;

1 - REAL term limits and unlimited use of your own funds in campaigning.

2 - Revoke all laws newer than 100 years old. i.e. Start over without a revolution.

 

[sccrref]

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LEO 229 wrote:

<snip>Contrary to popular belief.. I do NOT always side with the men in blue.. :lol:<snip>

Glad to see that you are back on your meds. :lol:

 

[UTOC-45-44]

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[UTOC-45-44]

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LEO 229 wrote:

smccomas wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

roscoe13 wrote:

You're comparing apples to oranges again. In the car stereos the only thing in question is whether or not the suspect did something that's clearly illegal. In the case of the seized gun, they siezed it just in case there might be something about what the driver did that might be illegal, when they have NO articuable reason to suspect that a crime has been committed. By your logic, the police could sieze anything, from anyone, at any time just to see if there's some crime they can think up associated with that item.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse for cops...

You have missed the point.....

They believe a crime was being committed but could not find the proper charge. They will need some time to actually locate it.. (They are not aware that it does not exist)

You are not leaving with the possible evidence!!!

I hope the short version is easier for you to understand.

I see your point and understand the logic. Dont agree but I understand.

This is my perspective.I am responsible for my firearm, I am responsible for every round that leaves its barrel I am responsible for how it is used. The way I would look at it ismy firearm would then be in the possesion of indivdualsI do not know andI may or may not have anyway to prove that they took it.

Am I supposed to just assume that these clowns are notgoing to do something illegal with it. Its my firearm the rounds in it have my prints.If I am assumed guilty until proven innocent then I assume they are guilty until proven innocent.

I do not recall any cases where this has happened. And if it did.... you have a cop to refer to if your gun was used in a crime after being taken. They can interview him and put him on the box.

OF COURSEhe/she will deny this and will believed since LEO's are ALWAYS honest and they triumph over the Civilian :cuss::banghead:

 

[cato]

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sccrref wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

<snip>Contrary to popular belief.. I do NOT always side with the men in blue.. :lol:<snip>

Glad to see that you are back on your meds. :lol:

We've been working with Citizen to keep him on his 10 step Bill of Rights pills.It's all documented on Citizen's tape recorder for his court appointed monitoring.



.

 

[sjhipple]

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LEO 229 wrote:

YES!! You can seize it and make them prove where it came from. Drug transactions deal in small funds. NOBODY carries around cash in this amount.. NOBODY!! They could also be evading taxes and not reporting all their cash transactions at their business.

Guilty until proven innocent.

In a free society, idiosyncratic individuals aren't assumed to be criminals

 

[LEO 229]

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PT111 wrote:

If you go to a bank and try to deposit $10,000 in cash be prepared to give your life history.:what: Doesn't matter how you got it or if it's legal or not.:cuss:

If your a business.. no problem.

If your putting it in your personal account.... they log it in a book. I have had this happen to me one time.

I deposit Large sums of cash into my business account with no problems at all. It is expected a business will have that kind of cash.

 

[LEO 229]

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cato wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Your stoppedfor a broken tail light and the police observe $40,000 in $10 and $20 bills in a laundry bag in your back seat.

Can they seize it?

I hope not unless there is evidence it was used in or derived from a criminal action.

Guess things are different in Cali... or your just playing it safe to keep your popularity here. :lol:

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

glock9emem wrote:

Off Topic...

Cato.. you should know this!!

YES!! You can seize it and make them prove where it came from. Drug transactions deal in small funds. NOBODY carries around cash in this amount.. NOBODY!! They could also be evading taxes and not reporting all their cash transactions at their business.

It is a known fact that drug couriers move drugs in one direction and then move the cash in the other. It is highly probable that the money is from an illegal enterprise.

Unless the person can prove where they got it... It is going to be hard to get it back. Once I run the dog over it.. if he hits on it for drugs.. they money will NEVER be returned.

If they withdrew it from a bank.... they will have their receipt.

What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? To you we are all guilty until proven innocent.

Sucks, huh?


If your innocent.. there is no need to even question you.
If we played that way.... all the criminals could get away. :lol:

Being innocent or guilty is determined in court. On the street.. we just suspect you may have done it. We have not made up our mind yet.

 

[para_org]

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LEO 229 wrote:

glock9emem wrote:

Off Topic...

Cato.. you should know this!!

YES!! You can seize it and make them prove where it came from. Drug transactions deal in small funds. NOBODY carries around cash in this amount.. NOBODY!! They could also be evading taxes and not reporting all their cash transactions at their business.

It is a known fact that drug couriers move drugs in one direction and then move the cash in the other. It is highly probable that the money is from an illegal enterprise.

Unless the person can prove where they got it... It is going to be hard to get it back. Once I run the dog over it.. if he hits on it for drugs.. they money will NEVER be returned.

If they withdrew it from a bank.... they will have their receipt.

What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? To you we are all guilty until proven innocent.

Sucks, huh?


If your innocent.. there is no need to even question you.
If we played that way.... all the criminals could get away. :lol:

Being innocent or guilty is determined in court. On the street.. we just suspect you may have done it. We have not made up our mind yet.

Why bother making up your mind about anything ? After all you can just seize and arrest and perform all manner of nasty and cruel behavior without having to think much about anything, least of all whether it is morally correct to do those things.

Nice job you got. No wonder you guys seem worried about who(m) will be there to cover your back. You create no friends, and you make enemies with regular and complete abandon behaving in such a manner as you present.

Does the state give you a nice big cookie at the end of each shift for being such a good little LEO and following your orders ?.

BTW , I editied this before knowing that LEO229 wasn't a believer in g-d. Now I wish I had left it the way it was... Oh well !!

 

[LEO 229]

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para_org wrote:

Why bother making up your mind about anything ? After all you can just seize and arrest and perform all manner of nasty and cruel behavior without having to think much about anything, least of all whether it is morally correct to do those things.

Nice job you got. No wonder you guys seem worried about who(m) will be there to cover your back.

Maybe you guys should ALSO worry about what g-d will do with you when you leave this life. Every religion I am familiar with that speaks to an afterlife declares that moral rules are what you will be judged upon. <- Perhaps the way Cato is dealing with these things is more appropriate in such an event ?

********* Oh yeah, in WW2 Germany, those fascist rulers and their MINDLESS citizen and military counterparts all said the same thing: "It's just my job, .... I was only following orders." <- That is *still* the refrain in fascist countries around the world.

Welcome to their world buddy. Enjoy your stay. I believe you *will* see a day where you will be asked to account for your behavior.

Don't be a hater....

Off topic... I do not believe in "god" so I not worried.

 

[sjhipple]

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LEO 229 wrote:

glock9emem wrote:

What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? To you we are all guilty until proven innocent.

Sucks, huh?


If your innocent.. there is no need to even question you.
If we played that way.... all the criminals could get away. :lol:

Being innocent or guilty is determined in court. On the street.. we just suspect you may have done it. We have not made up our mind yet.

Ya, all you people who think the war on drugs is a great thing, watch how LEO 229 dismisses the death of the Constitution as "sucks huh?". Crimes without victims require intrusive practices to catch. Innocent until proven guilty had to go in order to make sure "all the criminals don't get away."

I don't know how cops sleep at night.

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

ama-gi wrote:

Ya, all you people who think the war on drugs is a great thing, watch how LEO 229 dismisses the death of the Constitution as "sucks huh?". Crimes without victims require intrusive practices to catch. Innocent until proven guilty had to go in order to make sure "all the criminals don't get away."

I don't know how cops sleep at night.

I work within the constraints of the law. Don't hate me.. hate the people that make the laws that allow me to do my job and catch criminals. :lol:


Off topic... I sleep very well...

 

[UTOC-45-44]

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LEO 229 wrote:

para_org wrote:

Why bother making up your mind about anything ? After all you can just seize and arrest and perform all manner of nasty and cruel behavior without having to think much about anything, least of all whether it is morally correct to do those things.

Nice job you got. No wonder you guys seem worried about who(m) will be there to cover your back.

Maybe you guys should ALSO worry about what g-d will do with you when you leave this life. Every religion I am familiar with that speaks to an afterlife declares that moral rules are what you will be judged upon. <- Perhaps the way Cato is dealing with these things is more appropriate in such an event ?

********* Oh yeah, in WW2 Germany, those fascist rulers and their MINDLESS citizen and military counterparts all said the same thing: "It's just my job, .... I was only following orders." <- That is *still* the refrain in fascist countries around the world.

Welcome to their world buddy. Enjoy your stay. I believe you *will* see a day where you will be asked to account for your behavior.

Don't be a hater....

Off topic... I do not believe in "god" so I not worried.

Don't believe in God...or the Good Conscience either Huh???

 

[para_org]

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LEO 229 wrote:

para_org wrote:

Why bother making up your mind about anything ? After all you can just seize and arrest and perform all manner of nasty and cruel behavior without having to think much about anything, least of all whether it is morally correct to do those things.

Nice job you got. No wonder you guys seem worried about who(m) will be there to cover your back.

Maybe you guys should ALSO worry about what g-d will do with you when you leave this life. Every religion I am familiar with that speaks to an afterlife declares that moral rules are what you will be judged upon. <- Perhaps the way Cato is dealing with these things is more appropriate in such an event ?

********* Oh yeah, in WW2 Germany, those fascist rulers and their MINDLESS citizen and military counterparts all said the same thing: "It's just my job, .... I was only following orders." <- That is *still* the refrain in fascist countries around the world.

Welcome to their world buddy. Enjoy your stay. I believe you *will* see a day where you will be asked to account for your behavior.

Don't be a hater....

Off topic... I do not believe in "god" so I not worried.

To be VERY specific ->I don't hate YOU...I hate the way you are willing to dismiss the basis for our society...Our constitution, Bill of Rights, etc.

And I am not alone it seems. Far from it. In fact I admire the way you keep on here, even in the face of such overwhelming disagreement, although I clearly find your views of concern.

BTW It is not off-topic to discuss moral behavior and the results of your beliefs as you are prepared to turn them into actions concerning others.....Well then again, I can see how that it might be considered off topic to you.

It goes along with much of what you do here.

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

para_org wrote:

To be VERY specific ->I don't hate YOU...I hate the way you are willing to dismiss the basis for our society...Our constitution, Bill of Rights, etc.

And I am not alone it seems. Far from it. In fact I admire the way you keep on here, even in the face of such overwhelming disagreement, although I clearly find your views of concern.

BTW It is not off-topic to discuss moral behavior and the results of your beliefs as you are prepared to turn them into actions concerning others.....Well then again, I can see how that it might be considered off topic to you.

It goes along with much of what you do here.

Off topic...

I do not hate anyone on here either.. I just do not agree with what some people think.

I could "play it safe" and not say certain thingsfor fear I would not be liked or admired. I am not here for a popularity contest. I am here to discuss ideas, learn, and teach. I would rather have friends on here but it is not necessary.

Some here cannot get the concept that you cannot force someone to change their view. I am very stubborn and very open. I will tell you what is on my mind. Often times.. your not going to like it. I say what others are scared to say.

Back on topic...

We have transitionedto a citizen's gun being "stolen" by a copand I am explaining that it is not a theft.

In time... we learn MORE details than what were originally provided. This is often the case here. :lol:

 

[gsh341]

imported post

LEO 229 wrote:

cato wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Your stoppedfor a broken tail light and the police observe $40,000 in $10 and $20 bills in a laundry bag in your back seat.

Can they seize it?

I hope not unless there is evidence it was used in or derived from a criminal action.

Off Topic...

Cato.. you should know this!!

YES!! You can seize it and make them prove where it came from. Drug transactions deal in small funds. NOBODY carries around cash in this amount.. NOBODY!! They could also be evading taxes and not reporting all their cash transactions at their business.

It is a known fact that drug couriers move drugs in one direction and then move the cash in the other. It is highly probable that the money is from an illegal enterprise.

Unless the person can prove where they got it... It is going to be hard to get it back. Once I run the dog over it.. if he hits on it for drugs.. they money will NEVER be returned.

If they withdrew it from a bank.... they will have their receipt.

Well, I guess I'm nobody.

 

[para_org]

imported post

gsh341 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

cato wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Your stoppedfor a broken tail light and the police observe $40,000 in $10 and $20 bills in a laundry bag in your back seat.

Can they seize it?

I hope not unless there is evidence it was used in or derived from a criminal action.

Off Topic...

Cato.. you should know this!!

YES!! You can seize it and make them prove where it came from. Drug transactions deal in small funds. NOBODY carries around cash in this amount.. NOBODY!! They could also be evading taxes and not reporting all their cash transactions at their business.

It is a known fact that drug couriers move drugs in one direction and then move the cash in the other. It is highly probable that the money is from an illegal enterprise.

Unless the person can prove where they got it... It is going to be hard to get it back. Once I run the dog over it.. if he hits on it for drugs.. they money will NEVER be returned.

If they withdrew it from a bank.... they will have their receipt.

Well, I guess I'm nobody.

And since my wife is a nobody, and there are now two of you, should LEO229 be using some form of inclusive plural ?

I am sure some more nobodies can be found ...right ?

 

[smccomas]

imported post

UTOC-45-44 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

smccomas wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

roscoe13 wrote:

You're comparing apples to oranges again. In the car stereos the only thing in question is whether or not the suspect did something that's clearly illegal. In the case of the seized gun, they siezed it just in case there might be something about what the driver did that might be illegal, when they have NO articuable reason to suspect that a crime has been committed. By your logic, the police could sieze anything, from anyone, at any time just to see if there's some crime they can think up associated with that item.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse for cops...

You have missed the point.....

They believe a crime was being committed but could not find the proper charge. They will need some time to actually locate it.. (They are not aware that it does not exist)

You are not leaving with the possible evidence!!!

I hope the short version is easier for you to understand.

I see your point and understand the logic. Dont agree but I understand.

This is my perspective.I am responsible for my firearm, I am responsible for every round that leaves its barrel I am responsible for how it is used. The way I would look at it ismy firearm would then be in the possesion of indivdualsI do not know andI may or may not have anyway to prove that they took it.

Am I supposed to just assume that these clowns are notgoing to do something illegal with it. Its my firearm the rounds in it have my prints.If I am assumed guilty until proven innocent then I assume they are guilty until proven innocent.

I do not recall any cases where this has happened. And if it did.... you have a cop to refer to if your gun was used in a crime after being taken. They can interview him and put him on the box.

OF COURSEhe/she will deny this and will believed since LEO's are ALWAYS honest and they triumph over the Civilian :cuss::banghead:

Citizen not CivilianLEO's are not military and are notsubject to the UCMJ.