.357 mag.

[357luvr]

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Well I just shot 20 very disappointing rounds at a target mere 50long stepsaway. I'm not going to bother posting a pic because it's simply not worth it. There was absolutely no group whatsoever. I was aiming at a different spot each time, taking the shot, checking the shot and adjusting from there. I didn't hit within 4" of the center the entire time. It's like the bullets were allergic to the bull. Either way, I just can't get a decent group at a realistic hunting range. I've decided that my only options are to either take it to a smith to make some drastic changes to the current sights, replace the sights, or get rid of the mess of a rifle I got stuck with. Most likely, I'll sell the rifle and use the money to get a .308 Savage.

 

[gamestalker]

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I'll tell you how you could resolve the issue quite inexpensively and still keep the rifle. Go buy a fixed power scope, like a 6X40 anything. My nephew has a marlin 22 rifle with a BSA that is really inexpensive, like 30 bucks I think and it is quite accurate for something your only going to use at say a 150 yds. or less andon a rifle that recoil isn't an issue with. And if you scope it for up close on a rifle like that you'll not have any problem with close shots what so ever. Its a thought, although I know you would be much happier with something like a .308. Just be sure to consider the recoil with something such as a .308 is going to be a problem with a cheap scope due to the eye relief, or rather the lack there of causing injuries. Again, the Leupold may be a $200 scope but it is something you'll not regret buying, ever. Those who have never used quality optics will tell you that there is no difference in the $50. stuff vs the Leupold, and it just isn't at all truth or accurate. Those scopes that most rifle packages come with, Bushnel, Simmons, and any of the other Nikon, you name it and they are all in a pile in my reloading box never been used, and never will be, especially after what happened to me back in the 1980s costing me a few stitches and a concussion. It has happened to so many including my Son, my wife, and countless people I've sold rifles to in the sporting goods business. I've also had to pass on shots because those scopes fog up no matter how hard you try to keep from breathing on them, and if you get a shot that has the sun light towards you at all you can't see anything, not the slightest image at all. I don't know if you've ever shot a high powered rifle before, if not it is a completely different world to consider. A .308 is accurate out to a good distance and is limited primarily by the optics you put on it. A decent 3x9 scope, Leupold will give you shots out to 500 yds. or more accurately. I've actually killed antelope at 590 yds. with a 3x9 Leupold with one shot in the lungs from a .270. And I wouldn't hesitate to take a longer shot than that with something like the .308. Your talking about a round with the capability to shoot very light projectiles (100 grain) at over 3500 fps, to heavier 220 grain bullets at 2900 fps and everything in between. I'm not a 30 cal. guy but I have no problems with them and there is no other caliber that offers more varities than the 30 cal. weapon. Of the 30 cal. weapons I prefer the .308 over the 30-06 in fact. Its a short action cartridge and is rated for long range shooting, snipers used them until recently when the new ultra mag cartridges became the better choice, though they are designed after the .308 cartridge due to its short action, high velocities, lower pressures, and proven accuracy. In fact if I were you I would go with the ultra mag, it won't cost you any more than the standard .308 and it will deliver a better choice of capabilities. The 30-06, .308, .270, 7mm, 300 , and many more all come in the ultra mag. The .308, 30-06, and the 300 are all the same bullet, just different cartridge behind it. Those ultra mags are a completely new and different world of concept and accuracy that is unmatched by any of the old designs and is really the way to go if your thinking about a high powered rifle to begin with. The velocities of the ultra mags are amazing, absolutly amazing. Well, good luck and I hope I haven't caused you more confucsion by offering my opinions.

gamestalker

 

[357luvr]

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Well after a good nights sleep (something I rarely get now a days) and thinking it over real well I have decided that I am going to do as I said and trade/sell the 44 rifle for something like a Savage .308. There's multiple reasons for this ranging from simply wanting to be able to hit what I'm actually aiming at to being able to hunt at pretty much any range I want to. True, my hunting land only allows for a 75-100 yard shot at most but there's always the possibility that I can hunt on my friend's parents place that has at least double that range. Either way, the .308 is what I want when it comes to a hunting rifle.

The reason I bought the 44 rifle is because I thought it would be neat to have and I THOUGHT it would work well as a dual purpose rifle. What I mean by that is that I thought it would do just as well as a hunting rifle as it would being a HD gun. I now know that a 44 out of a carbine is waaaaay too fast for HD shooting. It would carry the same dangers as loading your HD shotty with slugs instead of Buckshot. WAAAAY too much penetration ability for a HD situation.

So I just called my local gun shop and they can beat the gunbroker prices above all day long. They said that the package series runs about $349. However they didn'tsay if that was with the wooden stock or the synthetic stock. I paid $614 for the 44 rifle. I'm not willing to sell it for less than $500 and I wouldn't be all that happy about selling it at that price. If I went up the the gun shop and tried to sell it to them, I doubt they'd give me enough to walk out the door with a Savage. As a general rule, you pay $300 for something and they're only going to give you $150 for it. I *HATE* selling stuff to them but they're the only ones that won't ask anything about the sights. If I sell it in the classifieds, the buy is GOING to ask SOMETHING about how well it shoots. I'm a horrible liar and just don't like lying for any reason. So about the only option I have is to sell it at the gun store or lie to someone who buys it out of the classifieds. I think I'll head up to the gun store and at the very least, see what they'll give me for it.

 

[gamestalker]

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I wish you lived closer to my location so I could get you set up without it costing you anything but the time to drop it of at my place. My favorite factory productionrifle is a Rem. model 710 for several reasons. They come with a 3 stage jewel trigger, they have a 3 lug bolt, and the bolt or lugs actually lock up into the barrel, not the receiver. The barrel is actually a pretty high quality barrel for a production rifle too. In fact it might be a good idea for you to consider one of these. They are not expensive and compared to my Savage's, I have 110s and 111s, they are easier to dial in and have a stronger action due to the 3 lugs set up and the bolt locking into the barrel instead of the receiver. Mine was about $500 new but I see them all the time used for $300. I sawa bunchof them yesterday in our local gun store here in Yuma for $299. A .243, .308 and a 7mm rem. mag., 30-06. .270 and they were all in excellent condition. They're not pretty guns at all and they have synthetic stocks. They aren't too popular because everyone that has bought one or knows anything about them thinks they are sub standard because the receiver is primarily made of a a polly or plastic material so people think they are a weak action. But again, because the lugs actually lock into the barrel and not the receiver, the receiverhas nothing to do with the strength of the action, not at all. These rifles are actually out of the Remington custom shop and few know that fact about them. they are straight shooters even before doing any work on them. They are a little heavy compared to the 110s and the rem. 700s, but that actually is a good thing for a couple of reasons. One, being it helps control the recoil and the barrel is a little heavier than the standard barrels on the Sav. 110s and Rem. 700s. My Son just bought a new Rem. 70 CDL and its super nice, but my 710 is a better built rifle in my opinion, hands down. It would really be difficult to hurt the strong actions on the 710s.If you get the opportunity to look up the 710 on Remington's web site do so and you'll see what I'm talking about. You'll probably have to look in the custom shop to find one though because I think Remington discontinued them and have changed the model number because of the Polly receiver not being to popular with those that don't realize it has nothing to do with the action/lug strength.

gamestalker

 

[357luvr]

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In short, I've spent about $675 on this gun and it'sammo trying to get it dialed in. It's just not worth that and certainly not worth any more than that. The simple fact is, this weapon is like the 5th or 6th gun that I love the idea of but just can't stand the actuality of it. If the rifle was able to shoot straight with it's current sights, then maybe I'd feel a little different. But that's not the case and I just can't stand the gun the way it is. I'm thinking back on the Savage .308 that I used to have and I'm comparing the two in my head. I don't remember a lot about the .308 but I remember that basically 'it started with a smile, went to a wow, and ended with an ow.'

Basically this is what I remember about the .308 that I like;

1. The gun fit me very well. The puma however, feels like a bit of a toy. I like big guns.
2. The recoil was perfect. I had a LimbSaver recoil pad on the .308 and it was a gentle shove as opposed to the sharp kick the44 has.
3. Accuracy was dead on. The same sure as heck can't be said for the Puma. Even with the stock package scope and a cheapbi podI was able to shootthe smallest groups I've ever shot (don't know exact size)75 yards groups right out of the box without any adjustment and using the cheapest ammo I could find.

Well I just got back from the gun shop and I can say with relative certainty that I will never return. Here's the story, when I first got up today I called and asked "Need a price for a rifle" he said "GO!" in a very rushed voice (I guess they were pretty busy) I say simply "Savage .308 w/o scope" then he simply says "$299 to 349" and pretty much hangs up. So I go up there thinking that I could surely get $349 out of the Puma. I get up there and find out they gave me the price of a STEVENS instead of a SAVAGE. I don't want a Stevens, I want a Savage. I asked for what rifles they had in stock with a blued barrel, synthetic stock, and made by Savage. Dude spends like 5 minutes looking at anything but that. I ask how much is aSavage with syntheticstock, adjustable trigger, andblued barrel, they don't even ask about a scope, they just say $499. So while that outragious price is bouncing around in my head, I ask him how much my Puma is worth. He said $225-250 because he sells this EXACT SAME RIFLE FOR $399, That's some knee high bullcrap there!!! The owner's wife and opperator of the shop was the one who unwrapped it and ran the paperwork for me even called it "Unique."

They've wronged me for the last! I'll take my business somewhere else. The next closest gun store is over an hour away but maybe I'll just save a couple grand anddo all my shopping during their annual sale.

EDIT TO ADD; Both times I tried posting a reply, it came up with an error message and didn't check to see that it had gone through. Here's my response to your last reply.

I *was* one of those people that thought the poly parts on the 710 weakened it but you've successfully straightened me out. They're actually sold at my local wally world and if you say that they're better than a savage then I'll believe you. Either way, I'm going to try to just save up some money and get the .308 without having to sell the rifle that I have now. Don't know if that'll work out or not but that's my plan as of now.

 

[gamestalker]

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Hey, I'm really sorry your having such a difficult time with your 44 and in trying to do business with your local gun shop. i have the same thing here regarding our local gun shop, he's a jerk. If you want a Savage then you should get a Savage. As i stated, there is absolutly nothing I can say about them that is bad. they are super accurate and the trigger is a fantastic advantage. My reasons for preferring the Reminton are more personal than anything else. I have friends that buy only Savage's for punching paper and hunting and I wouldn't and couldn't find anything adverse about those dudes and their rifles, ever! If you bought another Savage in .308 you would never have to worry about those tight groups again, you know that! And so far as the value of your 44, its at the mercy of your local gun shop, unless you sell it through the paper or other advertising. My Son bought a Savage 111 about 6 months ago at our local gun shop, well not from our local gun shop, here is the story. He went in to check out some prices on rifles and a guy walked in trying to sell this 111 and my Son heard the shop owner tell him he would give him $200 for it and my Son said I'll give you $250. right now.Well needless to say the owner asked my Son to leave and the other guy came outside and sold the gun to him for $250. After the deal was over my Son went back in and told the owner he should have been a little more considerate since he was planning on spending a group of money in his shop until that incident,my son was very serious. That day my Son and I left for Phoenix and then went to Tucson after that and at the end of the 2 days he had spent over $2500 on guns and reloading equiptment that would have been contributed to our local shop! Oh ya, when we got to Tucson we went to a gun shop I've been doing business with since around 1980 and the guy was a jerk to my Son who then turned around and said the same thing to him! He thought my Son was going to buy a gun out from under the shop owner and all my son was going to do was ask the guy why he was selling the gun! Anyway, to make a ong story short, just go get what you want and sell the 44 through the paper, you'll get a lot more for it that way. Then go buy your Savage from Walley World you'll be much happier that way dude.

 

[357luvr]

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gamestalker wrote:

If you bought another Savage in .308 you would never have to worry about those tight groups again, you know that!

Anyway, to make a ong story short, just go get what you want and sell the 44 through the paper, you'll get a lot more for it that way. Then go buy your Savage from Walley World you'll be much happier that way dude.

That's my plan! I let everyone know how it goes when I have the money in a couple months.

Oh and I think that's what I'm going to do, just build a list of guns that I want in one whole year, call around and find who has the best prices, and spend one day shopping for a whole years worth of guns. That'd be AWESOME!!!!

Anyway, thanks. I'll either get a savage or a remington and go from there. I know what to expect from the savage so that's what I'll probably get but I'm sure I'll be satisfied with either one.

Thanks again!!!

 

[357luvr]

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Does the Remington 710 even come in .308? I think I remember that being another reason why I didn't like the 710. Help me out here if you can. Thanks!

Can you do mea favor and compare the following calibers on recoil,muzzle velocity and energy, versatility,and ability to shoot atlong ranges.

.243
.270
.308
.300WM

Thanks!!!

 

[gamestalker]

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The .243 is a super high velocity round, low recoil, and very accurate, but ir doesn't have much energy. Although I have a friend that is a guide and he use the .243 for everything, including elk and bear.

The .270 is a quite high velocity, around 3100 fps, a more than average amount of recoil, decent knock down power, and super accurate. I've killed every specie of big game with this weapon and have a lot of confidence in it.

The .308 is rather high recoil, probably about as much as the .270 depending on which bullet your using, it has a varying velocity again dependant on the bullet choice of which there are dozens of choices with this cartridge, it can produce anything from 2800 fps to as much as 3500 fps depending on the bullet choice. It is quite accurate out to as much as 1000 yds. when using the right bullet.

the 300 wsm offers the exact same bullet choice of the .308 because they shoot the same caliber. However, the 300 wsm has a great deal of recoil. It is a super high velocity weapon delivering velocities over 3700 fps with the lighter bullets and maintains a good velocity with the hevier bullets of over 200 grains. It quite accurate out to 1000 yds..

And though you didn't ask about it, the 7mm Rem. mag. is high recoil, very accurate shooting the highest coefficiency round of any calibers made today. It can achieve velocities of close to 4000 fps with the lighter bullets and maintains 3400 fps with the 175 grain bullet. it doesn't offer much in bullet varities though. It produces high energy and is a good gun for any north american game.

The 710 comes in all the calibers except the 300 wsm. If your wanting the 710 in a 300 they do offer it in the 300 Win mag. which is actually just as good as the WSM version. The WSMs actually arent' as good as the ultra mags. So to recap on that,. the 300 wsm is a different cartridge than the 300 Win mag and the 300 ultra mag of which I feel the latter two are better performers than the WSM. The WSM are also a liilte more expensive to shoot than the ultra and the Win mag unless you reload

gamestalker

 

[357luvr]

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gamestalker wrote:

The .243 is a super high velocity round, low recoil, and very accurate, but ir doesn't have much energy. Although I have a friend that is a guide and he use the .243 for everything, including elk and bear.

The .270 is a quite high velocity, around 3100 fps, a more than average amount of recoil, decent knock down power, and super accurate. I've killed every specie of big game with this weapon and have a lot of confidence in it.

The .308 is rather high recoil, probably about as much as the .270 depending on which bullet your using, it has a varying velocity again dependant on the bullet choice of which there are dozens of choices with this cartridge, it can produce anything from 2800 fps to as much as 3500 fps depending on the bullet choice. It is quite accurate out to as much as 1000 yds. when using the right bullet.

the 300 wsm offers the exact same bullet choice of the .308 because they shoot the same caliber. However, the 300 wsm has a great deal of recoil. It is a super high velocity weapon delivering velocities over 370 fps with the lighter bullets and maintains a good velocity with the hevier bullets of over 200 grains. It quite accurate out to 1000 yds..

And though you didn't ask about it, the 7mm Rem. mag. is high recoil, very accurate shooting the highest coefficiency round of any calibers made today. It can achieve velocities of close to 4000 fps with the lighter bullets and maintains 3400 fps with the 175 grain bullet. it doesn't offer much in bullet varities though. It produces high energy and is a good gun for any north american game.

The 710 comes in all the calibers except the 300 wsm. If your wanting the 710 in a 300 they do offer it in the 300 Win mag. which is actually just as good as the WSM version. The WSMs actually arent' as good as the ultra mags. So to recap on that,. the 300 wsm is a different cartridge than the 300 Win mag and the 300 ultra mag of which I feel the latter two are better performers than the WSM. The WSM are also a liilte more expensive to shoot than the ultra and the Win mag unless you reload

gamestalker

After rereading your 'when to tumble brass' thread and reading that other guys opinion I'm now mainly interested in the .300 Win. Mag. and the .308. Please compare those two recoil. A simple "this will kick more/less than that" is kinda what I'm looking for.

However, the .243 appeals to me. Can you give an example of how much energy is 'not much' energy? This is what my redneck buddy prefers because it's "more than enough for deer (especially at my ranges i.e.; 75 yards or less) and easy on the shoulder" would that summary be an accurate description of a weapon in that caliber?

If your looking for close range hunting rifle that's hard on deer and easy on the shoulder, would you be looking at a .243 or what? Like I said in my other post, the .308 WITH a recoil pad was about all I could comfortably handle. So I definitely don't want something that recoils more than that even if it hit bulls all day long without even aiming.

 

[gamestalker]

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Absolutely, the .243 is an excellent deer rifle and almost zero recoil for a high powered rifle. I love the .243. Regarding knock down power or energy as it is referred to, the .243 is all you need for deer, antelope, and even elk or bear if the shop is carefully placed. As I stated, I have a buddy that just hates recoil and he has been killing everything with his .243 and very successfully I might add. A bullet of 105 grains traveling at extremely high velocity and accurate as can be imagined, will drop just about any North American game at over 3500 fps or more if hand loaded! That is a .243, a well respected hunting weapon that has long been the choice for those who hate recoil and want the serious high power rifle properties of the bigger cartridges. It is also offered in the ultra mag cartridge which is even more deadly producing nearly 4000 fps with the 105 grain bullet and still nice to the shoulder. But also consider that unless your reloading the ammo for those ultra magsthey area little more expensive to shoot and not necessary to have in the .243 for good reason as I indicated. If you reloadthey don'tcost any more to shoot becausethey use the same bullet, powder, and primer that corresponds to that caliber, ie; .308, 30-06, 300s, and anything that uses the .308 bullet, like the 300 savage, 303 British, 30-30 win. 30 carbine, and all the other ones with a .308 projectile. I think you know what I mean? All 30 cal weaponsshoot the same bullet, all 7mm cartridges use the same bullet, the 7mm rem. mag,280Rem, 284 win., 7 mm rem. ultra mag, 7 mm WSM and any others that use the .284 bullet.. The .243 the 6mm use the same bullet. I can't think of much in the .277 other than the .270, the ultra mag. the WSM and maybe a couple of new ones, I haven't really kept up with all the new versions of this era of new cartridgesthat have been showing up lately, but there are apparently quite a few of these. Anyway, I kind of got off track with this stuff. Bottom line is the .243 is going to make you a happy man and will do what ever your wanting it to including impressing the 50 yr. old man you spoke of!

Oh and now we are going to see a new 6.5 coming our way too. but not yet so don't get any ideas for now.

gamestalker

 

[357luvr]

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Well I guess I need to borrow my friend .243 long enough to throw a few rounds through it and see how it feels to my shoulder.

Thanks man, I really appreciate all the help you've given me with this! It means a lot!

 

[357luvr]

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gamestalker wrote:

the sights are above the barel of course, so it is physically impossible for it to shoot high at 25 yds., no matter how far down the sights areadusted unless someone has changed the sights on it making the rear sight set above the front sight atits lowest setting point. Take and do a quick measure of the hight of the front and rear sights. the rear should be no higherthan the front at the top lateral point of the V or grove.That is one of the factors used to determine absolute zero or perpetual zero.

gamestalker

Well I got some good news today!!! Late last week I ended up calling Sports World Inc., which is the service and repair company for (among others) Puma rifles like mine. It was the best customer service experience of my life!!! They were polite, unrushed and best of all, they sent me a front sight for free WITHOUT ME EVEN ASKING FOR IT!!!! How great is that?!?!?!

Anyway, I decided that I didn't have anything invested in this sight so I might as well just try to install it myself. Surprisingly enough, I still have a functionable gun! LOL Seriously though, it was a snap. I just used the biggest center punch that I could find and a big hammer with light taps and it eventually just fell out and then right back in.

Either way, the new sight is on but if I'm not lucky enough for it to be aligned properly. I haven't tested it yet but that's because I have less than 25 rounds left and no money to buy anything other than hunting ammo. In other words, if I can't get it dead on accurate within 25 rounds, I won't be able to hunt with it this year.

So I'm basically asking the same question with a different twist; HOW DO I GET THIS DARN THING SIGHTED IN???? Do you still suggest starting out at 25 yards and then gradually increasingmy way out to 75-100yards? What number of shots should I take at each distance? Should I adjust the front sight for windage or the rear sight? And just to clarify, what direction do I go if it's shooting low and to the left since that's where I expect it to be?

Thanks man, I know I can get pretty repetitive sometimes but I'm one of those people who has to hear or read/see something several times before I can remember it. Sorry about that. Thanks again.

 

[357luvr]

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I could not stand it anymore and just fired off two shots that were a pleasant suprise. Pics are worth a thousand words so it's 2" down and 1/8" to the left, just like I expected and predicted. I seem to be a natural when it comes to tinkering with guns.:celebrateAnyway, here's the pic. As always, I aimed with the (now) orange front sight perfectly centered and directly below (where the top of the sight touched the bottom of the target) it. It was shot from my back porch which is sad to say only 8 yards at the most from where the target was. I aimed at the exact same place both times and the result is a one whole group if I ever saw one.:celebrate:celebrate

~8yds away, 2" down and ~1/8" to the left.

I think this is going to turn out to be one heck of a deer season!!!:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

 

[357luvr]

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gamestalker wrote:

I really don't have any advice, it sounds like you've got the ticket. I looked up the ballistics and according to the science of it, the 240 gr. bullet is good at any range up to 150 yds. when sigted in at 100 yds.. At point blank its 1.5" low and at 150 yds. it should hit about 2.25" low. Can't really beat that, and the 240gr. is sure to stop just about anything nearly any where you hit it. It will probably die from hydra shock from a bullet that size! I hope you hammer a nice one this season dude. You deserve it and your rifle needs to draw first blood. You have a responsibility to your fellow supporters of the sport of hunting. Think of it as a mission and approach it as such, it kind of makes it a little more interesting, and fun.

Is there a lot of public land where you live, or is it primarily private land? Here in Arizona we have thousands of square miles of public land and a lot of it is wilderness. Its nice, but it is also difficult at times because you can easily get lost and often times hunting can involve miles and miles of walking through elements that have no real land marks or roads to get in by. And getting your animal out after the kill sometimes takes days of work, hard work I might add. I've guided people that said they would never hunt again in Arizona because it was so physical.

gamestalker

Since I'm shooting 2" low at 8yds, that means I should go up with my sights just a hair right? What about windage, if it's off by an eighth of an inch at basically point blank range, what's it gonna be like at 75?

 

[gamestalker]

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I'm sorry, but No, your hitting low only because your at 8 yds.. Now if you were at 75 or 100yds. I would say yes to adjusting the sights. In fact it is hard to say with any certainty where you will hit at any distance over 50 yds. because those shots were at 8 yds.which isconsidered point blank. Any point blank shot from any weapon will be low on the target no matter what weapon and no matter how the sights are adjusted, its physics. The bore of thebarrel is always below the sights thus will always strike low at point blank. And remember what I said about things multiplying the farther you get from the target. Well, your 1/8" to the left will get really magnified at 25 yds. and then 50 yds. and so on. I would be surprised if you are on the paper at 50 yds. and the 2" low can turn out to be extremely high or low at 50 yds., there is just no way to know at point blank range. That is why it's only effective to sight in at the zero point for that particular weapon as with any weapon or you'll not be sighted in at all!

gamestalker

 

[357luvr]

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gamestalker wrote:

I'm sorry, but No, your hitting low only because your at 8 yds.. Now if you were at 75 or 100yds. I would say yes to adjusting the sights. In fact it is hard to say with any certainty where you will hit at any distance over 50 yds. because those shots were at 8 yds.which isconsidered point blank. Any point blank shot from any weapon will be low on the target no matter what weapon and no matter how the sights are adjusted, its physics. The bore of thebarrel is always below the sights thus will always strike low at point blank. And remember what I said about things multiplying the farther you get from the target. Well, your 1/8" to the left will get really magnified at 25 yds. and then 50 yds. and so on. I would be surprised if you are on the paper at 50 yds. and the 2" low can turn out to be extremely high or low at 50 yds., there is just no way to know at point blank range. That is why it's only effective to sight in at the zero point for that particular weapon as with any weapon or you'll not be sighted in at all!

gamestalker

I know I'm shooting low because of the short range. I was basically going off of what you said earlier about if it shot is sighted in for 100 yards, it would be 1.5" low at point blankand 2.25" low at 150 yards. Since I'm right at .5" too low to fit that scenario, I thought you might suggest not wasting the ammo at longer ranges until I adjust the sights just a smidge.The reason I say that is because the magnification factor. If I'm a half inch low at 8 yardsI doubt I'd even be on paper at 80 yards. That's why I was asking if and by how muchI should adjust the sights before firing any more of the very few rounds I have left.

Sorry I'm so hard headed

 

[Loneviking]

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I'm trying to understand what it is that you are doing here---were these rounds fired 'off-hand'? When you are sighting in you need to use a bench and take the human error factor out of things.

First, shoot from a table---those big, concrete tables that most gun ranges have is ideal. You can make an improvised bench with a big 6 by 6 block and a sandbag on top. The idea is to adjust the height (by block and bag) to where you can lay the barrel on the sandbag, and the butt of thegun is resting on the table---and the top of the gun is level. Get a small, cheap level, but check to see that the gun is level.

Then, get a 'sight-in' target. These have four quadrants that can help you to zero in on problems. Pace off or measure 25 yards and set up the target. Fire one round at a time with a second person (a spotter) helping you to see where your rounds go if they miss the target. Then, adjust your sights accordingly.

Does that help?

 

[gamestalker]

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Follow loneviking's direction. He understands what sighting in is and how it is properly done.What I was trying to convey is that you can't sight a rifle in at pointblank range, it will always be consistently lowwith absolutely no indication by which to consider what it will do at longer distances, 25yds. 50 yds. and so on.It is literally impossible to sight in at point blank range, and other than by complete coincidence have it hitting accurate or in an expected manner at 25 yds. andlonger distances, impossible!And if your going to be hunting or rather shooting at 25 to 50 yds. sighting in at 25 yds. will work, but not if your taking shots at much over 50 yds.. You might be at least in the center line of the target out past those ranges, but you would probablybe hitting off in elevation depending on bullet, and exact elevation your hitting at, at 25 yds.. If your an inch low or an inch high it will have either a positive or negative effect down range at 75 or 100 yds..Andagain, if your off a small degree that you or anyone may find acceptable at 25 yds. it will become a much bigger problem as the distance increases to the extent of causing serious accuracy issues. Sight in the right way a Loneviking has suggested. And since you don't have any range past the 25yds or so than just make sure your on real good at that distance. Don't you have a any place where you can go sight in at 50 yds. or so? Well, good luck and keep following Loneviking's advice and you'll at least be able to count on being sighted in at 25 yds. which will be effective up to probably 50 or 75 yds..

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[357luvr]

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Well in my defense; 1) I didn't have time to do all of what you suggested. On the shots above I was kneeling while holding on to the middle railing of my porch with the rifle resting on my arm. I was as steady as I could have been in that particular situation. 2) I was just testing windage. I knew it would shoot low, I was just wondering if the front sight was at the right place.

Anyway, I tried a few shots from 25 yards and they were a little low but within 5 rounds I was dead on. I've got to fix the windage before going out at a longer range but for now it'll do. I'll probably be doing more shooting in a little bit so I'll wait until tonight to post pics and do measurements.