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A Call to Arms

Squid13

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The Donkey wrote:
Well, that'san interesting question isn't it:

Is 2A an absolute right, but "arms" limited to sidearms?

Or, is 2A subject to the same types of "strictly scrutinized" regulations as other rights like 1A?

My guess is that the courts will say something like the latter, even if you are right about the former.
Obviously the answer is neither of the above. There is nothing to suggest it is limited to sidearms. Neither the 1A or 2A should be subject to regulations. Why can't you accept freedom? Why do you feel the need to regulate your own "rights"? Are you not capable of speaking responsibly? Do you murder people the minute you pick up a "restricted" weapon? Do you feel you need to be searched without reason? These rights are not up to debate.
 

Gordie

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smccomas wrote:
marshaul wrote:
Alexcabbie wrote:
3. a national right-to-carry in any public place (ie no more weenie WalMart managers telling you not to bring your weapon into the store)
I disagree. This would entail abrogation of private property rights to an even greater degree. Are we sure we want to trade rights like this? I am perfectly happy to respect the private property rights of others, especially if the government respects my right to carry.
I agree on the public part when we say ie walmart, movie theaters ect. We then do get into private property I do not believe my 2A right trumps another persons private property rights.

Example a good friend of mine ask that when we visit her at her home that I not bring a loaded firearm into her house (she has a 5 year old). Its her house I cant argue with her nor should I. Make the choice abide by her rules (It is her house) or not come over.
Absolutely, I too have family and friends who are not comfortable with guns in their homes, and I respect their wishes. If a business posts a no firearms sign at their entrance I always have the choice to do business elsewhere. My 2A rights should not trump someone else's private property rights. IfI demand to impose my desires on others, then I can expect the same from them.
 

marshaul

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smccomas was saying that he agrees with alexcabbie that "private propety open to the public" should not be allowed to prohibit firearms.

I used to share this view, but I have largely changed it. Where does one draw the line? When is property "open to the public"? A parking lot seems a likely candidate. What about inside the store? What about your house on halloween?

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that property rights are the foundation upon which every other right exists, and to lessen them in favor of gain elsewhere can only accomplish net loss.

We should work towards making firearms socially acceptable. Then we can have our cake, and eat it too.

I think the idea of establishing liability is more interesting. If you prohibit weapons, you assume responsibility for establishing security (or take the liability gamble that it isn't necessary). If not, you don't. Nice and easy, eh?
 

Alexcabbie

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Interesting paradox: At most gun shows (such as the monster events held at Dulles Expo Center here in VA) signs are posted "NO LOADED FIREARMS EXCEPT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT" , followed by argle-bargle about "insurance requirements". The same apples to most firearms dealers and ranges; I believe even the NRA Range at HQ in Chantilly has this requirement.

Talk about your "gun-show loophole"...........
 

smccomas

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marshaul wrote:
smccomas was saying that he agrees with alexcabbie that "private propety open to the public" should not be allowed to prohibit firearms.

I used to share this view, but I have largely changed it. Where does one draw the line? When is property "open to the public"? A parking lot seems a likely candidate. What about inside the store? What about your house on halloween?

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that property rights are the foundation upon which every other right exists, and to lessen them in favor of gain elsewhere can only accomplish net loss.

We should work towards making firearms socially acceptable. Then we can have our cake, and eat it too.

I think the idea of establishing liability is more interesting. If you prohibit weapons, you assume responsibility for establishing security (or take the liability gamble that it isn't necessary). If not, you don't. Nice and easy, eh?
I am sorry, what I was saying was public property not private. I concur OC should not be restricted through out the country on public property the individual store owners in the example of Walmart let there conscious be there guide.

Your point about liability is beautiful, the CO I work for has a "No Illegal" weapons or drugs in CO vehicle mine are legal. If that policy were to change I am of the opinion they have restricted my ability to defend myself, I believe then they would assume the risk. I would not want to test this case.

Besides CO Pres has several shotguns and a rifle in his office I don't see the policy changing anytime soon.

Edited:wasn't smart enough to read the whole post
 

KansasMustang

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I was going to answer Donkey's thoughtful response but Y'all did it very well for me. Jus to add this tho', our forefathers, the founders had in mind that "We the people" should be armed with the weapons of the current military necessary to respond as a militia to combat any incursions, invasions etc. Of course these weapons would be of our choosing. And as was said I have yet to hear of any 155 howitzers being used in an armed robbery Ha. Get your head out of your fifth point of contact Donkey. ANY laws except the constitution are unconstitutional. First and foremost is the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That's with the understanding that you do not transgress on someone elses life, liberty and property.
 

shad0wfax

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The Donkey wrote:


Right: why shouldn'tyou be allowedbuy afully loaded, lightlyused, M109A6 Paladin for cash without a background check . . . .

True, you might not WANT to take part in the celebration by the Washington monument by firing at it from hereoutside of the DC beltway: but then again shouldn'tyou have the RIGHT to have theCAPABILITY if the celebration OFFENDS?

'Courseyou would need a few rocket assisted projectiles too. Ya think Craigslistshould have em?

You must remember that the founding fathers wrote and adoptedthe Constitution andBill of Rightsafter a Declaration of Independance and a successful armed revolution against the tyrannical government of England. Again, they wrote this after they rebelled against a King who had an Army.

The colonists who became revolutionaries could not have succeeded in securing their own free state if they were restricted to non-military weapons or "civilian" weapons only. The revolutionary war had cannons on both sides of the lines as well as muskets, pistols, and sabres. These were all considered "arms" and no distinction was made between the "arms" in the Bill of Rights.

Thereforeeveryone should have the right to keep and bear arms capable of overthrowing a tyranny. Should the state become a tyranny that is no longer free, the people have the right (and duty) to bear arms to secure their freedom.To prevent the state from becoming a tyranny in the first place, the people's right to keep and bear arms should never be infringed.

In today's world, the federal government is in complete control. Any attempt by any one of the states to secede would be crushed financially, politically, or perhaps even militarily. No state government will consider seceding from the Union. Furthermore, even if every single "civilian" in the country owned an AR-15 or M1A and took up arms against our government, our government could bring the full might of the standing army (which is unconstitutional, might I add...) and crush the rebellion. No successful revolution could ever take place without a huge number of US Military officers and enlisted defecting on a massive scale. It would require tanks, bombers, fighters, huge numbers of troops, ships, etc.

Thus, should this country's government ever become a tyranny,itwould be nearly impossible to establish a new democracy as our founding fathers did. Therefore, the purpose of the Bill of Rights (most importantly the 2nd and 10th amendment) has been trampled and infringed uponto the point of being impotent. The lines were drawn when the south attempted to secede from the Union and our illustrious 16th president sent in Union troops to occupy a few rebellious states and then established a naval blockade. The lines were drawn and the south was crushed. The last attempted revolution was crushed by the federal government after ~4 years of the bloodiest fighting in US history. An attempt at a revolution now (even on a massive scale) would simply take a fraction of the time and would be more deadly.

In other words, yes, the individual person should have access, training and the right to use the arms necessary to preserve freedom. The 2nd amendment isn't just about mustkets and pistols. The spirit of the Bill of Rights is dead.
 

shad0wfax

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KansasMustang wrote:
I was going to answer Donkey's thoughtful response but Y'all did it very well for me. Jus to add this tho', our forefathers, the founders had in mind that "We the people" should be armed with the weapons of the current military necessary to respond as a militia to combat any incursions, invasions etc. Of course these weapons would be of our choosing. And as was said I have yet to hear of any 155 howitzers being used in an armed robbery Ha. Get your head out of your fifth point of contact Donkey. ANY laws except the constitution are unconstitutional. First and foremost is the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That's with the understanding that you do not transgress on someone elses life, liberty and property.

+1

The 10th amendment specifically states "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

The fact is, the Constitution never gave the power to regulate firearms to the government. In fact, it was further prohibited in the 2nd amendment. The powers are reserved to the states, or to the people.

The NFA of 1934, the GCA of 1968, the Crime Bill of 1994 and the vast majority of the United States Code is unconstitutional.
 

KansasMustang

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:
The ONE thing you're correct on is we are not (yet) fighting a revolution. After a few more decades of political posturing, THEN you'll have no other choice.
Since it'll take firepower to undo what you and generations of your kind have done, this subject has PLENTY bearing on this discussion.
Two, I am right. Even then, there were plenty of your kind around. Too afraid to stand up against the king of England, rather be subjects to the Crown.
Most historians have pegged the % of the population of that day who actually fought in the revolution well under 10%. Today is no different.
Go read history, it's about to slap you in the face.
It will be interesting to see just who will stand up and fight if and when it becomes necessary. We can all sit comfortably in our warm houses and wring our hands and bitch about how things are going and yada yada, but when the S*#t hits the fan, how many will actually lock and cock and step up?? Our lives, our liberty and, our fortunes? Who among you has ever been in serious combat? I wonder how many of what we call in the trucking business *CB Rambos* in here it would equate to Blog Rambos I spose, but how many of you have the intestinal fortitude ( a nice way of saying (*cajones*) to leave your hearth and fight? Right ON Mark Edward
 

Squid13

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The reality is that we the people do not have military grade weaponry. Anyone that knows anything about what's been going on around the world knows that we could not fight against our government UNLESS a large part of the military, which is composed of the people, were to side with the revolt. The insurgents "over there" are dedicated religious zealots. They fight with a ferocity that most americans are uncapable of due to decades of comfort. And the marines still kick their asses on the regular. We couldn't fight back... without our families in the armed forces. The question has been asked, "who would fight if it came down to it?", but I ask "Who in the military would do the right thing and side with the people when the time came to fight and die for freedom?"
 

rodbender

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If it came down to it, I don't care if one soul doesn't cross over from the military, I will fight to the end of hostilities or death. I WILL NOT LIVE UNDER TYRANNY!
 

Squid13

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rodbender wrote:
If it came down to it, I don't care if one soul doesn't cross over from the military, I will fight to the end of hostilities or death. I WILL NOT LIVE UNDER TYRANNY!

+1

HUZZAH!!!
 

Kenshinx2

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the NRA isint perfect and i admit im Very disapointed they ignored RON PAUL

buuut they are one of the many paper walls remaning between us and loss of our lifestyle not the only NO but one of them yes! also i want all of you to rember we are all brothers here fighting for the same thing with diffrent tatics

yes i wish the government understood the words "SHAL NOT BE INFRINGED!"
but they dont.. clearly they cant even understand illigal immigrants are illigal..
sooo im just saying lets not fight just argue our best points and say "I concur" or "i offer this to argue my point aginst that"
 

KansasMustang

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Truth is, I believe there will be more than just one soul crosses over from the military. Not long ago, there was a questionaire posed to quite a few Marine officers that the basic question was could you engage US Citizens in order to quell a rebellion. Resoundingly almost to a man they answered No way. I think, if the cause is just,,and what more Just cause than Liberty, the military would do the right thing. The term from the 18th century I believe was Huzzah!!! but I know what you meant Squid ;)
 

MetalChris

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I've sworn twice now to defend the Constitution against foreign and domestic enemies. I will uphold that oath.
 

KansasMustang

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MetalChris wrote:
I've sworn twice now to defend the Constitution against foreign and domestic enemies. I will uphold that oath.
Still not sure exactly which the *Annointed One* is,,Foreign or Domestic. Like you said MetalChris, I swore that same oath 4 times, still remember every word of it. IF they, (the government) infringe, do they not then become the enemy of the people? If they attack the Constitution are they not then the enemy of the same? I abhor the fact that it may come to it,,,but as they say, Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country. Keep your powder dry
 
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