ALERT: WA Ceasefire to push O.C. ban in 2012 !!!!!

[jolly__roger]

Laws cannot prevent, they can only punish. "Prevention" means responsible citizens seeing to their own defense, not creating more helpless victims.

I am not suggesting that any new laws be enacted. I have a few comments on this issue in this tread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...ussion-begin&p=1791671&viewfull=1#post1791671

 

[Batousaii]

Prevention... idea...

.. How about thinning the heard... of criminals.
- Punishments for repeated violent offenders need to be much stricter. I am talking about the real bad guys that hurt innocent people for their own gain and enjoyment, not the bf/gf that have a spat and he or she owns a gun. Robbers, Rapists, home invaders need to put to death, or perm-termed in a labor camps where they can repay society with intense labor building roads, buildings, or dangerous industry. At least then the tax payers money will be actually spent for production of infrastructure. If inmates work hard, they receive perks, like TV time or some entertainment in the pen. Those that try to escape or cause sabotage to the structures they are building, receive a lobotomy or death.

- Harsh?? Hell Yes, but it sends a message, that being that level of criminal is not prosperous, and thus prevents and deters others from considering it.

 

[jolly__roger]

Censorship has started again.

The fine folks(that was really hard to say...) at Washington Ceasefire have started censoring again.

Here is the blog post on our website: http://www.washingtonceasefireislame.org/blog/4-censoringagain

 

[TechnoWeenie]

My post on their thread calling them liars is still on their page.

 

[jolly__roger]

My post on their thread calling them liars is still on their page.

Score!

Two friends and myself have had all of our posts deleted and are now banned from posting any additional comments. If we were petty we could simply go start new profiles and keep posting on their wall but we've decided to not stoop to their level. We'll continue archiving their wall and let everyone know via our website, facebook page and new Twitter account. We're adding new features to the website as quickly as we can so be sure to check back often and also 'Like' our facebook page.

We're still debating on how best to handle displaying the posts that have been deleted. We would prefer to have peoples permission but they have posted to a public page and there are sites like archive.org that preserve sites all the time. Bit of a privacy dilemma but we'll figure it out and keep exposing them for trying to steal our rights.

 

[jolly__roger]

.. How about thinning the heard... of criminals.
- Punishments for repeated violent offenders need to be much stricter. I am talking about the real bad guys that hurt innocent people for their own gain and enjoyment, not the bf/gf that have a spat and he or she owns a gun. Robbers, Rapists, home invaders need to put to death, or perm-termed in a labor camps where they can repay society with intense labor building roads, buildings, or dangerous industry. At least then the tax payers money will be actually spent for production of infrastructure. If inmates work hard, they receive perks, like TV time or some entertainment in the pen. Those that try to escape or cause sabotage to the structures they are building, receive a lobotomy or death.

- Harsh?? Hell Yes, but it sends a message, that being that level of criminal is not prosperous, and thus prevents and deters others from considering it.

I whole heartedly agree that harsher punishments could be one of the methods to invoke preventive measures. I would like to discuss this topic further so I'll start a new thread in the next day or two because it is of high importance to me but I do not want to detract from the main topic of this thread.

 

[jolly__roger]

In the spirit of keeping this tread on topic, would anyone like to help gather information about Washington Ceasefire that we can post to our new website and facebook page? We've started doing research on them and we've dug up some good stuff but I'm sure there's more out there that we're missing.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Batousaii]

Political warfare -

~ One thing has always come to mind in regards to the anti-gun crowds, they are slippery, tricky, and use very subversive tactics. They are willing to lie cheat and steal for their agenda. This group does not play fair. On their websites, they routinely cut and delete posts that prove their philosophy wrong, or worst, show it to be dangerous. These groups, or in this case cease fire need a serious taste of medicine. You want to make them powerless or even shut them down? Infiltrate their organization, plant a mole who can rise to the top, or close to it, then spend them to oblivion, and make ghastly public statements that discredit them and makes the public and media avoid them. Make the problem go away... then no problem... Use their tactics against them.

Researching them from the outside is helpful... research them from the inside, become them, then dismantle them... even better.

 

[slapmonkay]

Personally, I don't enjoy the way this thread has evolved over the last few days. While I despise WCF, plotting to implode them on a public forum, or at all, does no good for our cause (no matter how much we dislike them). Threatening them for censorship matters even less. This thread (let alone being a sticky thread) has turned into a tick for tat, childish play postings which does nothing good for our public image. While I am not here to be forum police, I would politely request you take your child's play offline and not associate it directly with me or OCDO.

 

[gogodawgs]

Personally, I don't enjoy the way this thread has evolved over the last few days. While I despise WCF, plotting to implode them on a public forum, or at all, does no good for our cause (no matter how much we dislike them). Threatening them for censorship matters even less. This thread (let alone being a sticky thread) has turned into a tick for tat, childish play postings which does nothing good for our public image. While I am not here to be forum police, I would politely request you take your child's play offline and not associate it directly with me or OCDO.

+1

Energy wasted...

 

[Batousaii]

.. and yet...

..But it is OK to talk about shooting someone in the chest, center mass, if they are threatening your (our) existence correct? This does not implode them?

- WCF threatens our existence as constitutional defenders, our way of life, yes? At what point do we actually defend ourselves from them on a political scale? (not physically of course). The fundamental is pretty much the same.

I see little difference in a philosophical light.

--- They are going after preemption... is this not a threat?

We indeed need to think in a much more aggressive tone against the anti-constitutionalists..

 

[slapmonkay]

..But it is OK to talk about shooting someone in the chest, center mass, if they are threatening your (our) existence correct? This does not implode them?

- WCF threatens our existence as constitutional defenders, our way of life, yes? At what point do we actually defend ourselves from them on a political scale? (not physically of course). The fundimental is pretty much the same.

I see little difference in a philosophical light.

We indeed need to think in a much more aggressive tone against the anti-constitutionalists..

Your reference to shooting someone is irrelevant to this thread and your point.

I never implied that you couldn't start a political ad campaign or other wide spread political outreach. In fact, if someone had enough money to run ads with real facts I would likely try to pitch in one way or another. The problem is wider than WCF and focusing any amount of energy on a small group is close to a wasted effort.

What I don't think helps our image, is the child's play. Such as pestering them on the facebook, saying your censoring us (their page, their right, move on), the web pages, the suggestions to attack the organization from within. All this is a wasted effort, in my opinion, and does not make us appeal to outsiders when they read it. Your posting on a public forum, a forum that many groups, news and individuals visit and track. If you think WCF does not read these posts you are wrong, I am sure they do exactly what everyone else here does to there sites.

If you want to help on a political level; work with your local representatives, fund ads, get involved in community events, invite media, educate the public and get the facts out there. Do whatever you can to help normalize carry. Everyone and anyone can get involved to whatever level they desire. Directly attacking groups and individuals is not the way to go about the problem.

 

[jolly__roger]

Your reference to shooting someone is irrelevant to this thread and your point.

I never implied that you couldn't start a political ad campaign or other wide spread political outreach. In fact, if someone had enough money to run ads with real facts I would likely try to pitch in one way or another. The problem is wider than WCF and focusing any amount of energy on a small group is close to a wasted effort.

What I don't think helps our image, is the child's play. Such as pestering them on the facebook, saying your censoring us (their page, their right, move on), the web pages, the suggestions to attack the organization from within. All this is a wasted effort, in my opinion, and does not make us appeal to outsiders when they read it. Your posting on a public forum, a forum that many groups, news and individuals visit and track. If you think WCF does not read these posts you are wrong, I am sure they do exactly what everyone else here does to there sites.

So, because I don't have much disposable income to waste on running ads that will only run for a short time and most likely have little effect, I'm just supposed to do nothing to call WACF out for the oppression they are lobbying to push upon us? Sure the problem is much wider than WACF but they are actively lobbing Washington State legislature (which directly affects us) to enact laws and regulations that take away our rights.

I absolutely know that WACF and other organizations watch this forum and many other forums. I'm no spring chicken when it comes to public forums and social media. I have been running forums and public boards for over 15 years and it's where I earn a significant portion of my income from. I chose to use these methods of promotion because this is what I know and I know they are effective.

If you want to help on a political level; work with your local representatives, fund ads, get involved in community events, invite media, educate the public and get the facts out there. Do whatever you can to help normalize carry. Everyone and anyone can get involved to whatever level they desire. Directly attacking groups and individuals is not the way to go about the problem.

My time is very limited during the normal business hours so my ability to work with local representatives and getting involved with community events is not likely going to happen. Educating the public is exactly what I can do through my websites and facebook pages and I would be happy to "get the facts out" there though those channels. I am not directly attacking WACF, I am simply exposing them for the frauds that they are. That is not an attack in my dictionary. They have a right to free speech just like everyone else does and I support their right to free speech. But when they start to censor people on a social media site simply for opposing their views, that is wrong and I won't tolerate that. When you open a forum or social media page you have a responsibility to allow open discussion to take place and none of the comments that we've caught them deleting were offensive, abusive or attacking in any way so they should not have deleted (censored) those posts.

slapmonkay

Personally, I don't enjoy the way this thread has evolved over the last few days. While I despise WCF, plotting to implode them on a public forum, or at all, does no good for our cause (no matter how much we dislike them). Threatening them for censorship matters even less. This thread (let alone being a sticky thread) has turned into a tick for tat, childish play postings which does nothing good for our public image. While I am not here to be forum police, I would politely request you take your child's play offline and not associate it directly with me or OCDO.

I respect your views here, and you have the right to them but if the administrators of this site and/or the OP of this thread do not have a problem with me/us continuing this discussion, then I will continue this discussion. Sorry if that offends you.

Before WACL started their second rounds of censorship I was honestly considering changing the name of the facebook page and dumping the domain name after a little while but I've changed my mind now. If they agree to stop banning (also remove bans) and censoring people from their facebook page and allow open discussion like it should be, then I still may reconsider changing the name to something a little more general towards promoting gun rights. And to clarify, this is not a threat or blackmail towards WACF, this is simply asking that they respect other peoples views and comments on a public social media page that they happen to have created.

 

[jolly__roger]

What I don't think helps our image, is the child's play. Such as pestering them on the facebook, saying your censoring us (their page, their right, move on), the web pages, the suggestions to attack the organization from within. All this is a wasted effort, in my opinion, and does not make us appeal to outsiders when they read it.

I wanted to revisit this statement specifically. None of the posts I read(including mine) were "pestering" them on their facebook page (which is a free service I might add...) prior to them engaging in censorship. We were engaging them in open discussion just as they asked for in a statement made by a representative of their organization (Ralph Fascitelli) in this interview(@1:50): Interview with WACF

I will admit that some of my subsequent posts to their wall may have been a bit antagonistic and pestering but that was to get the message across that censorship on a public page is wrong. I don't think it's a waste of time to show the public that this organization's character and principles also include censoring open discussion, which they asked for. If we can convince even a few people to rethink about trusting these people, then our time has been well spent. In my opinion that is...

 

[Difdi]

But California just banned the practice, so Californicators up here are trying to play monkey-see, monkey-do. There are a handful of legislators, some imports, others native Washingtonians, who would like to see Washington follow California down the gun control path."

The main difference between California and Washington, when it comes to gun laws, is that there is no right to keep and bear arms in the state constitution of California. None whatsoever. But Washington's constitution has a stronger protection for the right to keep and bear arms than the 2nd amendment to the U.S. constitution.

I actually welcome groups like Ceasefire trying to copy California's laws up here. It makes constitutional challenges child's play.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

The main difference between California and Washington, when it comes to gun laws, is that there is no right to keep and bear arms in the state constitution of California. None whatsoever. But Washington's constitution has a stronger protection for the right to keep and bear arms than the 2nd amendment to the U.S. constitution.

I actually welcome groups like Ceasefire trying to copy California's laws up here. It makes constitutional challenges child's play.

....but... California State constituions specifically recognizes the U.S. Constitution as the supreme law of the land....

 

[Metalhead47]

....but... California State constituions specifically recognizes the U.S. Constitution as the supreme law of the land....

...but only when convenient...

 

[sudden valley gunner]

...but only when convenient...

Haha yea, well it doesn't seem to matter much to those who represent us in Federal government either, except when convenient either.

 

[slapmonkay]

WA Ceasefire has come out of its dormant state that it’s been in for the last few months…

Press Release: http://www.washingtonceasefire.org/

...

We strongly believe we know how to reduce gun violence. Research from David Hemenway, Director of Injury Prevention at the Harvard School of Public Health, highlights that common sense gun laws can reduce gun violence by more than half, In Washington State which has the most lax gun laws on the west coast, that would mean 3000 fewer gun deaths over the next decade, as well as hundreds of millions of dollars in lower medical, legal and law enforcement expenses.

The passage of five common sense laws that don’t violate anyone’s Second Amendment rights can reduce the violence here. They include closing the gun show loophole so everyone must pass a background check including those committed for mental illness; banning the sale of semi-automatic assault weapons; limiting the number of bullets in a magazine clip to ten from the current thirty; giving local sheriffs the power to decide who gets a concealed weapons permit (which may have prevented the Racer Café tragedy); and toughening penalties on underage possession of firearms.

...

News Interview: http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dail...own_sandy_hook_elementary_school_shooting.php

Question: Washington Ceasefire says that "five common sense laws that don't violate anyone's Second Amendment rights" can reduce gun violence? Can you explain these proposed changes to current gun laws, and how much impact do you think they could have?

Research by David Hemenway the Director of Injury Prevention at the Harvard school of Public Health show that while no single law is a panacea, a comprehensive set of laws can reduce gun violence by more than two thirds.

The five most important laws are:
- banning semi-automatic assault weapons that can fire more than 100 bullets a minute
- limiting bullets in a magazine clip to no more than ten
- closing the gun show loophole
- tougher penalties for underage possession of firearms
- empowering police chiefs and sheriffs with the last word on who get a concealed weapons permit

Question: EXTRA CREDIT: How hopeful are you for meaningful change to occur in Olympia this legislative session?

I am a pragmatic optimist. We are going to put a lot of pressure on the new governor and speaker Chopp to get things done. We want them to worry as much about Washington Ceasefire as they do the NRA and we have the facts on our side. Washington legislators need to step up.

 

[Metalhead47]

But of course. LA, DC, Chicago, NYC all have those laws. And are known for being wonderful safe places. Common sense.


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