Am I being detained?

[OC for ME]

I believe PALO's premise is: it is sometimes ok to talk to LEO's.
I believe that premise, since it is essentially conditional, is valid.

No, his premise is that there is no harm in taking to a cop if you know you are legit. That is a cop's perspective. It is a reasonable perspective but it is not without risk. His examples are consistent in that regard.

To the extent necessary?

There in lies the hazard to yours and my rights. You may go farter to avoid the ride that the cop is compelled to "request" of you. Also, was the '?' intentional? I responded based on the wording.

Good! A reasonable approach.

Thanks, back atcha.

I don't quite understand what you mean. Can you give me an example?

It is always advisable to talk with the cop. No risk there, trust me. PALO says so, until you are placed under "arrest" that is, then get a attorney to talk for you.

A very sobering thought.

Not really. Reality is typically far less "glamorous" or exciting than what the generally held perception is.

 

[Obi Wan]

We seem to be at odds over what PALO's premise is.
We should appeal to the source:
PALO?

 

[Jeff Hayes]

Obi

I was arrested one time when a Cop was talking to my buddy I got bored of the conversation and started to walk away the Cop asked me where I was going and I pointed at my buddy and said with him. How was I to know that he was going to jail nothing in the conversation indicated anyone was going to jail but off to jail I went. Keep in mind I was stone cold sober and had been at the scene for less than 5 minutes and had not broken any laws. Of course all charges were dismissed in less than 2 minutes when I went before a Judge.

The Cops that do stuff like this are why I do not trust any of them.

My son was stopped for speeding in the middle of no where on I 90, he was, the WSP officer asked if he could search his car my son said no and the officer responded with either let me search your car or I will just say I smelled pot and search anyway. Searched the car found nothing and did not write him for speeding, he should have. This Cop was at least willing to threaten to lie to get his way, If he was willing to break the law to search a car what else would he be willing to lie about.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Oh my.
And I thought asking if I were being detained was confrontational.

You seem to think standing up for rights is confrontational, cooperating makes it harder and enables a cop to think the next guy should do what you do.
Also why do you use confrontational as a pejorative? Is it bad to confront an evil? Is responding (or not responding) to someone (a cop) who technically are the ones who "confronted" you.

I am aware that text on a forum, even with emoticons, can be mis-interpreted, but PALO's point seems self evident to me.

Although my OP was pretty narrow in scope, referring to only the situation of being approached by LEO while OC and doing nothing illegal, others have taken it much further, and claimed that it is never prudent to speak to an LEO at all.

It would seem that you have had bad experiences with LEO's, which could lead to, what is in my opinion, such a drastic view.

Does it matter if it is for OC or for anything else. OC is a perfectly legal activity the simple fact I am carry justifies or rationalizes no stop.

But, on the face of it, PALO was merely pointing out that sometimes the more pragmatic course of action would indeed be to have a conversation with an investigating LEO, the purpose of which would be to 'avoid the ride'.

Furthermore, he provided a couple of real world examples where such a conversation accomplished just that.

PALO is a cop and has been one for a long time, by his own posts he trains other cops too, of course he is biased and has a vested interest in you complying with his brothers in blue, this most be kept in mind, there are many many verifiable instances where talking to cops, hurt more than it helped, you don't think that a lawyers and a judges warning in court not to just emerged as a pretense did you?

I suppose your mind is made up, and unchangable.
And I suppose what you say is true, "from a certain point of view".
And I suppose we will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

I have several anecdotal evidence of my own experiences were talking to cops hurt more than it helped it was a hard lesson learned, I hope you don't have to learn it the hard way.

 

[Obi Wan]

SVG: I am older than you, and growing up, was taught to respect police officers.

I guess times have changed.

 

[OC for ME]

I m older than SVG, past the AARP qualification requirement, and I was taught that respect begets respect. I extend respect to a LEO, without reservation, until he disqualifies himself of deserving any further respect. Respect is always a two way street.

 

[Citizen]

SNIP But, on the face of it, PALO was merely pointing out that sometimes the more pragmatic course of action would indeed be to have a conversation with an investigating LEO, the purpose of which would be to 'avoid the ride'.

Read his post again. His example was a non-sequitur. His example was a criminal defense attorney making a statement to police in his own case. Meaning, PALO used an example of a professional trained and experienced in the pitfalls of talking to police. You can bet that attorney's statement was very carefully worded. And, if the cop asking the questions knew he was a defense attorney, you can bet the cop was restrained in his questions, knowing a saavy defense attorney would just deflect or decline to answer.

So, PALO used a person like that as an example of why everyday citizens should talk to cops. Its not even close to being equivalent.

And, the best part is, he knows better. He can't possibly not know, after all his years as a cop, what the deal is.

If you haven't seen it, go to youtube and hunt up the video Talking to Police by Prof. James Duane of Regent University Law School. The professor talks for about twenty minutes, giving excellent examples of the dangers of talking to police without an attorney. The second speaker is a police detective. When the detective arrives to the podium, the first thing he says is, "And, everything he told you was true. And it was correct. And it was right." Meaning, the detective validated everything the professor said. Not once, but three times.

So, for us to believe that PALO doesn't really know the real deal, is for us to also believe that a cop with PALOs experience is somehow so dumb he missed everything that police detective in the video knows about. Nope. I'm not buying it. Not at all. If anything, PALO just hung a big rhetorical target on himself by all but expressly confessing he's being deliberately deceitful. He knows better; there is no possible way he doesn't know better.

And, if one thinks it through a little further, one comes up with the question, "if he's really all that concerned about OCers staying out of trouble, why is he advocating talking to police when he unquestionably, can't possibly not, know better?" If he was genuinely supportive of OC and OCers, he'd be giving us walls of text on how talking to police can get you into more trouble than just politely declining to answer questions until your attorney is present.

 

[Citizen]

SNIP It would seem that you have had bad experiences with LEO's, which could lead to, what is in my opinion, such a drastic view.

My bad experiences were only the starting point.

The fact their departments did nothing but cover-up, only kicked it harder out of the starting gate.

That got me interested. The more I read. The more I discussed here. The more my reality bubble burst.

One very big point is the Blue Wall of Silence where good cops enable bad ones by looking the other way.

My view is only drastic if the viewer omits from his evaluation vast amounts of problems in the policing industry. My view only looks drastic to people who don't know about those conditions and the extent of them.

 

[Citizen]

SNIP Furthermore, he provided a couple of real world examples where such a conversation accomplished just that.

And, he omitted all the times that not only didn't accomplish that, but gave the cop that little bit more to move from reasonable suspicion to probable cause for an arrest or even longer detention and investigation.

What PALO is crucially omitting is that a citizen has not way to know at the outset whether he is facing a good cop or a bad cop. The citizen may not find out until its too late.

The Pollyanna's can sing all day long that geniunely bad cops are few. They're basically saying I should risk my freedom and finances (legal defense costs) on whether its a good cop or bad cop by talking to him. I have a better idea. I ain't talking. He needs probable cause for an arrest. If he had it when he approached me, he'll arrest me.* If he only has reasonable suspicion, and I don't talk, he's going to have a really hard time upgrading from reasonable suspicion to probable cause.


*You, and anybody who hasn't seen it, should see the Prof. Duane video where Prof. Duane shows how even the truthful statements of an innocent person can be used against him if the police have evidence or witness statements that contradict the innocent person's statement. Easy as pie. The state just casts the innocent person as a liar and use the contradictory evidence/testimony as their proof he's lying. Memorize that phrase--even the truthful statements of an innocent person can be used against him. Its at the core of the Miranda Warning: anything you say can be used against you in court.

 

[Obi Wan]

I admit that I am new to OC'ing.
I am still trying to figure it all out.

However the thought that you seem to be putting forth,
that all cops should be suspected of being evil, liars, bullies and untrustworthy,
makes me sad.

Obi Wan

 

[golddigger14s]

Obi, just take everything with a grain of salt, and learn the important points presented. I personally have never had an issue with a LEO, I believe in the "golden rule". Treat others the way you want to be treated. I have always been polite/professional when talking with LEO's, and they have returned the same respect. Are there bad cops? Yes, but there are bad soldiers, lawyers, construction workers, plumbers, and any other profession you can imagine. Just like life, plan for the worst but hope for the best. (If I was a sports commentator I could have come up with a few more cliche's )

 

[hermannr]

I admit that I am new to OC'ing.
I am still trying to figure it all out.

However the thought that you seem to be putting forth,
that all cops should be suspected of being evil, liars, bullies and untrustworthy,
makes me sad.

Obi Wan

Obi, I have Openly Carried firearms for over 43 years. Never once had a problem with any LEO. Some say that I am just lucky, or that it is because of where I live, but I do not think so. There are bullies in every profession, personally I would not single out LE as being especially bad, though there are some bullies in LE, just like there are some in the corporate world.

I look at an individual's actions, and react accordingly. I do not roll over like a puppy, but I also do not try to create a confrontation... has worked for me, you mileage may very.

 

[Citizen]

I admit that I am new to OC'ing.
I am still trying to figure it all out.

However the thought that you seem to be putting forth,
that all cops should be suspected of being evil, liars, bullies and untrustworthy,
makes me sad.

Obi Wan

I didn't say that--you did. Please refrain. You are indirectly accusing me of cop-bashing which is a banning offense on this forum.

I said a bad cop can ruin your week, and you have no way to know for sure whether you're facing a bad cop or good cop until its too late.

Are you personally willing to risk your freedom and finances taking the chance?

Also, do you realize you are being sad about something the Founders stood for--rights? They put the Bill of Rights there for use. The 5th Amendment is there to protect the innocent. Same for the 4th Amendment. To say otherwise is to say the Founders decided to protect bad guys at the expense of everybody else.

And, a genuinely professional cop will understand if you politely exercise your rights in front of him. Only the bad cops and the questionable cops will take exception. Think about it. A good cop--a real, genuine good cop--upon hearing you politely exercise your 5th Amendment right to silence is gonna say to himself, "Well, there is a patriotic American who knows his stuff." Really, do you even want a cop on the force who takes a dim view of people exercising their rights?

And, you can bet your bippy, a cop is gonna exercise his right to silence and an attorney if he's in trouble.

 

[golddigger14s]

Citizen, I could be wrong, but Obi didn't mention any names. I think he used the word "you" as to meaning all of us in a collective way. I wouldn't say anybody was "bashing", but the overall tone I do have to admit seems rather negative/adversarial slant.
Like I said there are bad people in every profession, but the thread makes it seem like they are all bad. I'm not saying we as a group should not be on our toes, and ready to stand our ground. I also don't think we need to assume that just because a cop says hi that we immediately have to go on the defensive, and scream "am I being detained?".

 

[Schlepnier]

Obi, I have Openly Carried firearms for over 43 years. Never once had a problem with any LEO. Some say that I am just lucky, or that it is because of where I live, but I do not think so. There are bullies in every profession, personally I would not single out LE as being especially bad, though there are some bullies in LE, just like there are some in the corporate world.

I look at an individual's actions, and react accordingly. I do not roll over like a puppy, but I also do not try to create a confrontation... has worked for me, you mileage may very.

Obi Wan
I think the issue is that there may be bullies in every profession, however those other professions do not have the legal authority to detain, arrest, or cite you for a criminal offense.

While you always want to be polite do not seek out trouble.

As I said previously, law enforcement is a government service. if I am in need of the service I will contact them, if I am not in need then I have no reason to contact them, it wastes my time and theirs(and my tax dollars) and it has a tendency to make them needlessly suspicious.

If they contact me, then they better well have a legitimate reason to do so, as our rights under the constitution were put in place to restrain government from encroaching on the liberties of the citizenry.

 

[Freedom1Man]

Obi, just take everything with a grain of salt, and learn the important points presented. I personally have never had an issue with a LEO, I believe in the "golden rule". Treat others the way you want to be treated. I have always been polite/professional when talking with LEO's, and they have returned the same respect. Are there bad cops? Yes, but there are bad soldiers, lawyers, construction workers, plumbers, and any other profession you can imagine. Just like life, plan for the worst but hope for the best. (If I was a sports commentator I could have come up with a few more cliche's )

The whole premiss of the "golden rule" is a bad one. Some people like to be treated badly, so by the golden rule they treat others badly.

I try to treat others they way they either want or deserve to be treated as best as I can figure.

 

[OC for ME]

<snip> I also don't think we need to assume that just because a cop says hi that we immediately have to go on the defensive, and scream "am I being detained?".

Professional and polite are not the same as cordial and friendly. Cops are people too and they can be on the clock and be cordial and friendly. Cops are not in "arrest someone mode" at all times, quite the opposite is true in my view.

Bottom line, if a cop approaches you your Spidey sense should set you on edge. Wait and go with the flow after that. Be respectful until the cop no longer deserves your respect.

 

[Freedom1Man]

I admit that I am new to OC'ing.
I am still trying to figure it all out.

However the thought that you seem to be putting forth,
that all cops should be suspected of being evil, liars, bullies and untrustworthy,
makes me sad.

Obi Wan

Just wait until you meet your first 'bad cop.'

It's like getting bit by a brown dog, or getting bit by a certain breed of dog. Every time cross paths with a breed/color of dog that bit you for no reason before you might be a bit leery. No, I am not calling cops dogs.

As for trusting cops..hmmm.... Keep in mind that ALL governments are evil, a often necessary evil, evil none the less. Cops are government agents. Making cops by only the fact that they are workers for evil, evil themselves. Not bashing cops by this, just using a logical point statement. Also the only legit 'policing authority' in a constitutional republic, is an elected sheriff. Since most police departments do not have an elected leader they are not accountable to the people. Since it is the duty of the average citizen to be informed as to the nature of their local constitution, they should be aware that most of the police exist outside of any constitutional authority. Also since the local police should have come from the local citizenry, then those who join would be doing so knowing that they are joining a local criminal enterprise, making those who join criminals. Again not bashing police making a logically connected argument.

So, why would you want to give a cop anymore information than you are legally REQUIRED to give them?

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Obi, just take everything with a grain of salt, and learn the important points presented. I personally have never had an issue with a LEO, I believe in the "golden rule". Treat others the way you want to be treated. I have always been polite/professional when talking with LEO's, and they have returned the same respect. Are there bad cops? Yes, but there are bad soldiers, lawyers, construction workers, plumbers, and any other profession you can imagine. Just like life, plan for the worst but hope for the best. (If I was a sports commentator I could have come up with a few more cliche's )

+1 The only difference is most other private professionals don't coerce you with the threat of violence when they think you are 'dissin' them...

I have had plenty of friendly conversations even have started some with cops. Experience has taught me keep these conversations off the topic of yourself never volunteer information even in seemingly harmless passerby conversations.

I admit that I am new to OC'ing.
I am still trying to figure it all out.

However the thought that you seem to be putting forth,
that all cops should be suspected of being evil, liars, bullies and untrustworthy,
makes me sad.

Obi Wan

Since the courts ruled they can lie to you and you have no recourse.....for your protection it would be best to assume this. There is non bad apple when the barrel is rotten.

Good thing is that many of us have spent years training the cops in this side of our state, hopefully you'll have no issues.

Oh and by the way, age and respect has nothing to do with this, those who have met me know I am a very respectful and freindly and that goes for cops too. I don't put them up on a pedestal though any more than I would any other public servant, they get no more respect from me than the garbage collector.

 

[Citizen]

Citizen, I could be wrong, but Obi didn't mention any names.

1. I think he used the word "you" as to meaning all of us in a collective way. I wouldn't say anybody was "bashing", but the overall tone I do have to admit seems rather negative/adversarial slant.
Like I said there are bad people in every profession,

2. but the thread makes it seem like they are all bad. I'm not saying we as a group should not be on our toes, and ready to stand our ground. I also don't think we need to assume that

3. just because a cop says hi that we immediately have to go on the defensive,

4. and scream "am I being detained?".

1. Point taken.

2. That's my cop-bashing point--now, both you and Obiwan have accused multiple thread contributors of cop-bashing as defined on this forum: generalized criticism of police. Thank you very much. Please stop now.

3. Show me where anybody said that.

4. Show me where anybody recommended that. Show me anytime in the last six months where anybody made a post recommending being less than polite while exercising rights.



Basically, you and Obi wan are injecting your own assumptions. Instead of taking posts as "it sounds like", please try taking them as "sounds is". And, if you have a problem with what exactly is being written, please refute that instead of some vague overall impression you get.

Cop bashing is a very serious accusation on this board. People get banned for it. Now, if anybody accuses me of cop bashing again in this thread, even by vague implication, I'm making a formal complaint to the board admin. If I post genuine cop-bashing, fine. Otherwise, accusers need to deal with exactly what is written, not their own over-broad emotional reactions to the same.