Am I being detained?

[Jeff Hayes]

Obi

I have had some pretty bad experiences with Cops, guns aimed at me for no reason, cuffed and stuffed, arrested for no reason and a BS charge used, pulled over just because I was riding my HD with some friends, searched almost every time for no reason, hit with a night stick while cuffed and offering no resistance I could go on and on. I f I knew then what I know now things would have been much different. I helped a Cop once that was getting the crap beat out of him when his buddies showed up I got cuffed, I expected that but after they found out I had helped one of the gave me a couple shots to the kidney before he took the cuffs off. You will just have to forgive those of us that are a bit cynical, mostly it is because of our past experiences or the past experiences of our friends. No one is making this up so learn form us so that you do not have to go through what we already did.

Remember when you are OC some Cops do not like it and they will use their authority in an attempt to make you quit toss in being a citizen that is well informed about his rights and sometimes that will rub a Cop the wrong way they do not like the fact that you do not obey them. Keep in mind I am only talking about some Cops the problem is you never know what you get. When you start exercising you rights more that can result in conformations each and every one of us that decided to OC needs to know that one day it may result in a ride that you did not want to take.

I was taught that Cops were your friend and I thought so until I was about 17.

 

[PALO]

Obi

I have had some pretty bad experiences with Cops, guns aimed at me for no reason, cuffed and stuffed, arrested for no reason and a BS charge used, pulled over just because I was riding my HD with some friends, searched almost every time for no reason, hit with a night stick while cuffed and offering no resistance I could go on and on. I f I knew then what I know now things would have been much different. I helped a Cop once that was getting the crap beat out of him when his buddies showed up I got cuffed, I expected that but after they found out I had helped one of the gave me a couple shots to the kidney before he took the cuffs off. You will just have to forgive those of us that are a bit cynical, mostly it is because of our past experiences or the past experiences of our friends. No one is making this up so learn form us so that you do not have to go through what we already did.

Remember when you are OC some Cops do not like it and they will use their authority in an attempt to make you quit toss in being a citizen that is well informed about his rights and sometimes that will rub a Cop the wrong way they do not like the fact that you do not obey them. Keep in mind I am only talking about some Cops the problem is you never know what you get. When you start exercising you rights more that can result in conformations each and every one of us that decided to OC needs to know that one day it may result in a ride that you did not want to take.

I was taught that Cops were your friend and I thought so until I was about 17.

My experience differs. I 've never been hassled while OCing (WA appears superior to many states in this regards), and despite numerous contacts with police, to include (justifiably) being proned at at gunpoint as an armed robbery suspect, I've only one time witnessed unproffessionalism and general jerkiness to towards me by an LEO and it was when I was a jerk first.

I am certain what you say is true FOR YOUR experience, but in mine, apart from the one time I was a jerk first, I've only seen professionalism and restraint.

Imo, and I am not addressing thos to you, but juset speaking generally - one's attitude in any interpersonal encounter is hugely predictive towards a positive outcome, and that's ANY encounter, not just with cops.

In a perfect world, all cops would respect OC (where it's legal) and would act professionally and optimally even if one is a jerk towards them. The real world - well, it's different.

Again, not implying that YOU were a jerk to incite jerkmunchery by the cops. And of course being polite and respectful does not mean being subservient or feeling the obligation to waive any rights. One may decide to waive some rights or not. That's a personal decision imo purely up to the individual.

What I have found is that people who act like jersk tend to engage in that behavior across the board, to noncops as well. When I run checks on jerky people, they ALMOST ALWAYS have past arrests/convictions for assault, giving false statements, obstructing and also routinely are the respondents in protective orders. Those are example of how bad attitude resulted in bad outcome.

It doesn't surpise me that today's jerks were yesterdays jerks and it reflected negatively on them in terms of protective orders filed against them, assault charges etc.

And to repeat another principle - RECORD THE POLICE. One can do so while being respectful and imo it's a great practice to engage in. I've done it many times. And those who are hassled with for doing so should seek redress whether through the dept. or elsewhere. There are few more clearly protected RIGHTS than the right to film peace officers in performance of their duty.

 

[Obi Wan]

You are indirectly accusing me of cop-bashing

I didn't say that--you did.

Ok. Enough. Can we agree to not twist each other's words?

You, and others, seem to be writing from experience.
You have done your homework.
And you have presented your case eloquently here:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...O-take-my-weapon-for-quot-officer-safety-quot

Point(s) taken.

Obi Wan

 

[PALO]

Just wait until you meet your first 'bad cop.'

It's like getting bit by a brown dog, or getting bit by a certain breed of dog. Every time cross paths with a breed/color of dog that bit you for no reason before you might be a bit leery. No, I am not calling cops dogs.

As for trusting cops..hmmm.... Keep in mind that ALL governments are evil, a often necessary evil, evil none the less. Cops are government agents. Making cops by only the fact that they are workers for evil, evil themselves. Not bashing cops by this, just using a logical point statement. Also the only legit 'policing authority' in a constitutional republic, is an elected sheriff. Since most police departments do not have an elected leader they are not accountable to the people. Since it is the duty of the average citizen to be informed as to the nature of their local constitution, they should be aware that most of the police exist outside of any constitutional authority. Also since the local police should have come from the local citizenry, then those who join would be doing so knowing that they are joining a local criminal enterprise, making those who join criminals. Again not bashing police making a logically connected argument.

So, why would you want to give a cop anymore information than you are legally REQUIRED to give them?

I want to give them more than required because I want them to solve crime and catch bad guys. I, and members of block watch, as well as concerned citizens can help a substantial # of crimes get solved and bad guys caught. I'd estimate at least 1/2 of the DUI's my agency apprehends, apart from collisions are because concerned citizens follow them and call 911. If I am a witness to a crime , I am not required to cooperate with police (generally speaking principle) but I will because I want them to catch that bad guy. furthermore, by being truthful, I help exonerate the innocent as well as get the guilty.

I'll step aside the constitutional authority of cops apart from deputy sheriffs. Not disagreeing or agreeing, just not addressing.

National Night Out last night was a resounding success, fwiw, and it's people like those that help make their communities safer and help catch bad guys. You may disagree with the formation of local PD's except for sheriff's, but regardless we can probably agree that the first line of self (and other's ) defense as well as the first line to fight crime is the citizen, not the cop

 

[Jeff Hayes]

My experience differs. I 've never been hassled while OCing (WA appears superior to many states in this regards), and despite numerous contacts with police, to include (justifiably) being proned at at gunpoint as an armed robbery suspect, I've only one time witnessed unproffessionalism and general jerkiness to towards me by an LEO and it was when I was a jerk first.

I am certain what you say is true FOR YOUR experience, but in mine, apart from the one time I was a jerk first, I've only seen professionalism and restraint.

Imo, and I am not addressing thos to you, but juset speaking generally - one's attitude in any interpersonal encounter is hugely predictive towards a positive outcome, and that's ANY encounter, not just with cops.

In a perfect world, all cops would respect OC (where it's legal) and would act professionally and optimally even if one is a jerk towards them. The real world - well, it's different.

Again, not implying that YOU were a jerk to incite jerkmunchery by the cops. And of course being polite and respectful does not mean being subservient or feeling the obligation to waive any rights. One may decide to waive some rights or not. That's a personal decision imo purely up to the individual.

What I have found is that people who act like jersk tend to engage in that behavior across the board, to noncops as well. When I run checks on jerky people, they ALMOST ALWAYS have past arrests/convictions for assault, giving false statements, obstructing and also routinely are the respondents in protective orders. Those are example of how bad attitude resulted in bad outcome.

It doesn't surpise me that today's jerks were yesterdays jerks and it reflected negatively on them in terms of protective orders filed against them, assault charges etc.

And to repeat another principle - RECORD THE POLICE. One can do so while being respectful and imo it's a great practice to engage in. I've done it many times. And those who are hassled with for doing so should seek redress whether through the dept. or elsewhere. There are few more clearly protected RIGHTS than the right to film peace officers in performance of their duty.

None of this happened recently it was all years ago. I have been OCing for years in Washington and have never been hassled by the Cops for OC.

I was using my personal experiences so that Obi might understand the reasons that some of us are leery of any contact with Cops.

My record is squeaky clean as far as convictions go but I have been arrested and I know you have heard this before but not one of the arrests were justified as a matter of fact everyone was tossed by the Judge during the preliminary hearing. I so not have so much as a traffic violation for more than 35 years.

Any way you look at it even a murderer that is in custody and not resisting does not deserve to get hit with a night stick, I especially did not deserve that while being arrested for disturbing the peace in a bar with a rock band going full steam.

I might add that Cops need to think about their actions and what effect they will have on down the road the Cop that hit me after I jumped into a fight to help his buddy, I risked my butt and he punched me two times after he knew I had helped. This has never made sense to me why he would do that but now I will not stop and help a Cop unless he is actually being killed. There are negative results for negative actions.

All in all I have pretty good relations with the local Cops and support them most of the time but it is always in the back of my mind to be careful.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

My experience differs. I 've never been hassled while OCing (WA appears superior to many states in this regards), and despite numerous contacts with police, to include (justifiably) being proned at at gunpoint as an armed robbery suspect, I've only one time witnessed unproffessionalism and general jerkiness to towards me by an LEO and it was when I was a jerk first.

I am certain what you say is true FOR YOUR experience, but in mine, apart from the one time I was a jerk first, I've only seen professionalism and restraint.

Imo, and I am not addressing thos to you, but juset speaking generally - one's attitude in any interpersonal encounter is hugely predictive towards a positive outcome, and that's ANY encounter, not just with cops.

In a perfect world, all cops would respect OC (where it's legal) and would act professionally and optimally even if one is a jerk towards them. The real world - well, it's different.

Again, not implying that YOU were a jerk to incite jerkmunchery by the cops. And of course being polite and respectful does not mean being subservient or feeling the obligation to waive any rights. One may decide to waive some rights or not. That's a personal decision imo purely up to the individual.

What I have found is that people who act like jersk tend to engage in that behavior across the board, to noncops as well. When I run checks on jerky people, they ALMOST ALWAYS have past arrests/convictions for assault, giving false statements, obstructing and also routinely are the respondents in protective orders. Those are example of how bad attitude resulted in bad outcome.

It doesn't surpise me that today's jerks were yesterdays jerks and it reflected negatively on them in terms of protective orders filed against them, assault charges etc.

And to repeat another principle - RECORD THE POLICE. One can do so while being respectful and imo it's a great practice to engage in. I've done it many times. And those who are hassled with for doing so should seek redress whether through the dept. or elsewhere. There are few more clearly protected RIGHTS than the right to film peace officers in performance of their duty.

There's the kicker and and the allegation, and something that misses a huge issue. Other people don't have state backing to harass you, one can most times simply walk away from any unwanted, unwarranted intrusion into your life, when done by non cops.

The attitude should matter not, cops must realize people don't like being stopped under color of law, under ultimately what is a threat of violence, especially when they have done nothing wrong and know it. Our attitude does not and should not be one of compliance because you guys are trying to do good. That flies in the face of the 4th, no matter what watered down statist version cops claim are constitiutional. It is very interesting to read the 4th and know it has nothing to do with "having something to hide".

 

[Jeff Hayes]

There's the kicker and and the allegation, and something that misses a huge issue. Other people don't have state backing to harass you, one can most times simply walk away from any unwanted, unwarranted intrusion into your life, when done by non cops.

The attitude should matter not, cops must realize people don't like being stopped under color of law, under ultimately what is a threat of violence, especially when they have done nothing wrong and know it. Our attitude does not and should not be one of compliance because you guys are trying to do good. That flies in the face of the 4th, no matter what watered down statist version cops claim are constitiutional. It is very interesting to read the 4th and know it has nothing to do with "having something to hide".

+1

 

[Freedom1Man]

Can't stop you for exercising a RIGHT

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=36.75.010
(11) "Highway," every way, lane, road, street, boulevard, and every way or place in the state of Washington open as a matter of right to public vehicular travel both inside and outside the limits of incorporated cities and towns;


So, my traveling down the road in my automobile without plates is not a legal cause for a stop.

 

[rapgood]

Something has bothered me for quite some time.
Let's see if I have this right...

<snip>
A recent decision of United States Supreme Court, Salinas v. Texas, indicates that remaining silent during pre-arrest questioning cannot be used as an indication of guilt.

Well, I'm pretty certain that that is not the holding in Salinas. What the Supes said was,

Petitioner's Fifth Amendment claim fails because he did not expressly invoke the privilege against self incrimination in response to the officer's question. It has long been settled that the privilege "generally is not selfexecuting" and that a witness who desires its protection "`must claim it.'" Minnesota v. Murphy, 465 U. S. 420, 425, 427 (1984) (quoting United States v. Monia, 317 U. S. 424, 427 (1943)). Although "no ritualistic formula is necessary in order to invoke the privilege," Quinn v. United States, 349 U. S. 155, 164 (1955), a witness does not do so by simply standing mute. Because petitioner was required to assert the privilege in order to benefit from it, the judgment of the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals rejecting petitioner's Fifth Amendment claim is affirmed.

If it is acceptable to remain silent during pre-arrest, pre-custody questioning, to avoid self-incrimination, it does not follow that "that right [to remain silent] only applies once you’ve been arrested".
<snip>
Do I have this about right?
Obi Wan

No. In fact, the Supes specifically did not reach the question and there is still a split, as noted in the cases they cited.

We granted certiorari, 568 U. S. ___ (2013), to resolve a division of authority in the lower courts over whether the prosecution may use a defendant's assertion of the privilege against self-incrimination during a noncustodial police interview as part of its case in chief. Compare, e.g., United States v. Rivera, 944 F. 2d 1563, 1568 (CA11 1991), with United States v. Moore, 104 F. 3d 377, 386 (CADC 1997). But because petitioner did not invoke the privilege during his interview, we find it unnecessary to reach that question.

 

[Obi Wan]

Rapgood's comments would seem to bolster one consensus that determining 'detainment' at the outset of a LEO initiated, non-consensual encounter is crucial.

Since it is possible to incriminate oneself during LEO initiated, pre-custodial interviews, if one is not being detained the best course of action is to immediately leave the area.

If one is being detained, immediately invoke the right to silence and/ or right to counsel.

In either case, stop talking.

Now do I have this about right?

Obi Wan

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Rapgood's comments would seem to bolster one consensus that determining 'detainment' at the outset of a LEO initiated, non-consensual encounter is crucial.

Since it is possible to incriminate oneself during LEO initiated, pre-custodial interviews, if one is not being detained the best course of action is to immediately leave the area.

If one is being detained, immediately invoke the right to silence and/ or right to counsel.

In either case, stop talking.

Now do I have this about right?

Obi Wan

Close, so called "consensual encounters" lead to detainment.

You are under no duty to leave the area, they intruded upon you, but sometimes that is the easiest way to end the encounter.

 

[Citizen]

Rapgood's comments would seem to bolster one consensus that determining 'detainment' at the outset of a LEO initiated, non-consensual encounter is crucial.

Since it is possible to incriminate oneself during LEO initiated, pre-custodial interviews, if one is not being detained the best course of action is to immediately leave the area.

If one is being detained, immediately invoke the right to silence and/ or right to counsel.

In either case, stop talking.

Now do I have this about right?

Obi Wan

The only thing I would add is to immediately declare your refused consent to an encounter.

"No offense, officers. I know you're just doing your job. But, I do not consent to an encounter with you."

Asking if you are free to go early in the encounter serves to establish whether the encounter is consensual or a detention. Unfortunately, too many police like to play word games and dodge that question. Rather than answer that question (am I free to go?), we've too many reports of police dodging the question entirely, or asking another question in response. Same for asking "am I being detained?"

Take the conversational initiative away from the officer by simply declaring, "...I do not consent to an encounter with you." If you say that, there is no possible way it can be a consensual encounter after that. And, you've set the stage to where if the cop wants to continue the encounter, he must have genuine RAS. You've basically thrown the legal onus on him to definitely have genuine RAS. If you later find out he didn't, you've got grounds for a formal complaint or lawsuit.

 

[Citizen]

Someone just mentioned something in the thread where an OCer was arrested just yesterday for videoing police.

That reminded me of another police encounter tactic an OCer can use: you can set the cop up. In this case, I'm referring to cops dodging the question when you ask if you're free to go or its mirror question, "am I being detained?" Plenty of reports of cops dodging that question, and a few reports of cops outright lying that the OCer was not being detained, but as soon as he started to leave, they demanded he stay.

So, here's the tactic. If you ask whether you can go, and the cop dodges the question, ask, "When will I be free to go?" This is a set-up. Sometimes cops will hand you a wonderful illegality that is just beautiful to have on a recording. For example, "When you tell us what you're doing here."

That comment is a coercion to force you to waive your 5A right against self-incimination. We've actually had a cop say that or something similar before.

 

[Obi Wan]

Ok, I think I've got this now.
Thanks.

Obi Wan