Another Rookie Cop, Another Tragic End to Life

[OC for ME]

Rest assured, of all people I definitely understand the statement, "must comply with..." is just a bit unnerving, but don't you think in this context the kid should be reasonably expected to comply, and not draw his weapon? The minimum age to OC in OH is 18. The 911 caller claims that the kid is "likely juvenile," and also "pulling the gun and pointing it at people." That's brandishing. Plenty of RAS here for detainment/disarming IMO.

I'm seeing comments everywhere, from forums to social media, of people claiming "Ohio is an Open Carry state, he's just a kid, this is egregious!" Pure ignorance if you ask me.

A 12 y/o should not be held to the same standard of cognitive reasoning, in any given situation, as a adult should be held to. Kid shrinks will tell you this all day long...he's a...err, was a kid.

The cop overreacted, killed the kid, and the specific circumstance will permit he, and his department to avoid accountability. The point, intimated earlier in this thread, is that cops are given a great deal of leeway where a citizen may not enjoy such leeway.

 

[Ken56]

Seems like I read that the responding officers told the boy to drop the gun 3 times they said. But the video shows that the boy was shot in 1.5 seconds of their arrival......so did they start issuing the drop the gun command a block away? WTF? OK, so if you had been that good citizen that called 911, what would you have done if you had seen the boy doing what he reportedly was doing, that is pointing the gun at people. Nothing at all? Approach him and engage him in "gun talk" to see if it was real? Shoot him yourself in fear of you life? Leave the area and do nothing else? I think I would have been inclined to go talk to the kid, crazy, I know, but after observing him and coming to a reasonable conclusion that the gun may be an airsoft and he was just playing It may have saved his life if that man did that. The video shows him just sitting there not far away and not seeming to be in fear of him, just sitting there, on the phone with 911. I don't really know the answer to this really.

 

[WalkingWolf]

A 12 y/o should not be held to the same standard of cognitive reasoning, in any given situation, as a adult should be held to. Kid shrinks will tell you this all day long...he's a...err, was a kid.

The cop overreacted, killed the kid, and the specific circumstance will permit he, and his department to avoid accountability. The point, intimated earlier in this thread, is that cops are given a great deal of leeway where a citizen may not enjoy such leeway.

It is important to remember that the kid was not pointing a gun at the police, that video of him pointing at civilians was not yet present. So this is another case of police taking the word of someone on the other end of a phone to make a life or death decision. Just because he did not show his hands is not enough reason to shoot him, plus he may have not been the only child in that area that matched a description. These incidents will continue to happen until citizen safety is just as important as officer safety.

 

[OC for ME]

...These incidents will continue to happen until citizen safety is just as important as officer safety.

These incidents will continue to happen.

A 12 y/o is being held to the exact same standard as a adult would be held to...even by many members of this forum. The facts may come to light some day.

The linked article provides a few more details.

http://nypost.com/2014/11/27/cops-release-video-of-officer-fatally-shooting-12-year-old/

 

[Primus]

These incidents will continue to happen.

A 12 y/o is being held to the exact same standard as a adult would be held to...even by many members of this forum. The facts may come to light some day.

The linked article provides a few more details.

http://nypost.com/2014/11/27/cops-release-video-of-officer-fatally-shooting-12-year-old/

At what age should a person be held to any standard?

I agree its tragic that a child was killed. Hands down. But if the facts are accurate (video) it appears the kid completed actions that warranted this type of response. Does not make it any less tragic or upsetting. So what should have been done instead?

 

[OC for ME]

At what age should a person be held to any standard?

I agree its tragic that a child was killed. Hands down. But if the facts are accurate (video) it appears the kid completed actions that warranted this type of response. Does not make it any less tragic or upsetting. So what should have been done instead?

If the linked article is correct regarding the timing of first contact to first shot:

CLEVELAND — The police officer who fatally shot a 12-year-old boy carrying a pellet gun fired within 1½ to 2 seconds of pulling up in his cruiser, police said Wednesday. During those few moments, he ordered the youngster three times to put up his hands, they said.

My expectation is set very very low regarding the cop and his actions where redress or corrective action is concerned.

What should have been done? Given the released information (in the article) that the cop received prior to his arrival, the obvious eludes you yet again.

 

[WalkingWolf]

At what age should a person be held to any standard?

I agree its tragic that a child was killed. Hands down. But if the facts are accurate (video) it appears the kid completed actions that warranted this type of response. Does not make it any less tragic or upsetting. So what should have been done instead?

As in the Walmart case the police responded to phone information, they did not have the video at the time. This means I could report you were waving a gun around and you would be shot on sight. Unless the officers were in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm they were wrong to shoot. Non compliance without threat are not grounds to kill a child, or maiming them.

At the very least the officer should be fired, enough is enough.

 

[OC for ME]

At what age should a person be held to any standard? ...

You are asking the wrong person. Since I hold no control over any cop (set his standard of performance), and he has control over me upon contact...or else, only you can answer your own question. Remember, I need a judge, after the fact, to give me any semblance of control (challenge the standard used by that cop) over a cop.

Elected officials exert limited control over cops via the law that they enact (the ultimate standard(s)). But what good is that limited control if a cop will not follow existing law, or enforce nullified or nonexistent laws.

It is LE, and LE alone in my view, that sets the standards for all cops and who should also hold wayward cops accountable, immediately and severely, when any transgression occurs. Since cop shops will not willingly hold their comrades to account without much dragging, kicking, and screaming your question is rhetorical and thus answered itself.

 

[bomber]

A 12 y/o should not be held to the same standard of cognitive reasoning, in any given situation, as a adult should be held to. Kid shrinks will tell you this all day long...he's a...err, was a kid.

The cop overreacted, killed the kid, and the specific circumstance will permit he, and his department to avoid accountability. The point, intimated earlier in this thread, is that cops are given a great deal of leeway where a citizen may not enjoy such leeway.

But but but, officer saaaaaafetyyyyyyy.

We have handed over a tremendous amount of that leeway to the police by idolizing them as heroes whether they deserve it or not. We have allowed "officer safety" to be the get out of jail free card for all kinds of behavior that we would never tolerate from the average citizen.

In my observation, that is the underlying issue when people speak out against the cops. I dont dislike cops because they are necessarily bad people, I dislike them because they represent a whole class of people who get away with abusing people with very little consequence.

 

[bomber]

At what age should a person be held to any standard?

I agree its tragic that a child was killed. Hands down. But if the facts are accurate (video) it appears the kid completed actions that warranted this type of response. Does not make it any less tragic or upsetting. So what should have been done instead?

If your only tool is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.

We used to honor the police officer for his bravery. What kind of bravery is required to shoot a 12 year old kid? How about getting out of the car and approaching the kid cautiously, letting him have the time needed to comply with your command to drop the gun? How about being brave enough to face that situation without pumping the kid full of lead within 2 seconds of arriving on scene?

That video looks to me like the cop rolled up more than ready to shoot, and that if he did say "drop the gun" 3 times, he was only doing it to check off a box on his incident report. "Did you warn the suspect 3 times to drop the gun?" "Yes I did, then I wasted no time emptying my mag into him".

 

[Primus]

If your only tool is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.

We used to honor the police officer for his bravery. What kind of bravery is required to shoot a 12 year old kid? How about getting out of the car and approaching the kid cautiously, letting him have the time needed to comply with your command to drop the gun? How about being brave enough to face that situation without pumping the kid full of lead within 2 seconds of arriving on scene?

That video looks to me like the cop rolled up more than ready to shoot, and that if he did say "drop the gun" 3 times, he was only doing it to check off a box on his incident report. "Did you warn the suspect 3 times to drop the gun?" "Yes I did, then I wasted no time emptying my mag into him".

The kid started to pull the gun from his waist band. You can see it on the video.

Should the cop have waited till the kid drew, pointed, fired, then called you down to scene to ask permission to return fire? Then you could investigate it find out it was a kid and say "its ok hea only 12 he gets a free pass for this".

I noticed you nor anyone else has answered the question posed. Just thrown crap back

 

[WalkingWolf]

The kid started to pull the gun from his waist band. You can see it on the video.

Should the cop have waited till the kid drew, pointed, fired, then called you down to scene to ask permission to return fire? Then you could investigate it find out it was a kid and say "its ok hea only 12 he gets a free pass for this".

I noticed you nor anyone else has answered the question posed. Just thrown crap back

Post this video!

I have looked at it several times and it looks like he was shot directly upon the squad rolling up. He was not reaching he was collapsing, from being shot, he went down at that exact moment. Wait to see if he actually has a gun, or you(general) are an idiot, and unsafe. Again the officers were not aware of the video before so they were taking the word of a caller on the phone. The smart thing to do would have been to observe before playing Starsky and Hutch.

 

[Primus]

Post this video!

I have looked at it several times and it looks like he was shot directly upon the squad rolling up. He was not reaching he was collapsing, from being shot, he went down at that exact moment. Wait to see if he actually has a gun, or you(general) are an idiot, and unsafe. Again the officers were not aware of the video before so they were taking the word of a caller on the phone. The smart thing to do would have been to observe before playing Starsky and Hutch.

Lol

 

[WalkingWolf]

Lol

Then back up your claim, or you are the joke.

 

[Primus]

Then back up your claim, or you are the joke.

Its Mr. Joker. And you'll never get me Batman!!



Lol ok I'll stop messing with the kid.... Sorry grape.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Its Mr. Joker. And you'll never get me Batman!!



Lol ok I'll stop messing with the kid.... Sorry grape.

Put up or shut --.:lol:

 

[SpringerXDacp]

The kid started to pull the gun from his waist band. You can see it on the video.

Should the cop have waited till the kid drew, pointed, fired, then called you down to scene to ask permission to return fire? Then you could investigate it find out it was a kid and say "its ok hea only 12 he gets a free pass for this".

I noticed you nor anyone else has answered the question posed. Just thrown crap back

Patrol cars no longer have PA systems? The officer(s) reported they observed the pistol sitting on a table before the kid picked it up and placed in in his waistband. Why not utilize a PA when they were at a reasonably safe distance to order the kid to drop the gun, hold his hands up, etc? IMO, dispatch is partially at fault as well. Accurate communication to responding officers may have saved this kids life. The information conveyed by dispatch only fanned the flame in the rook to possibly get an opportunity to ventilate someone.

 

[The Truth]

These incidents will continue to happen.

A 12 y/o is being held to the exact same standard as a adult would be held to...even by many members of this forum. The facts may come to light some day.

The linked article provides a few more details.

http://nypost.com/2014/11/27/cops-release-video-of-officer-fatally-shooting-12-year-old/

The media contradicts itself in regards to facts so often it's nearly impossible to draw conclusions. I hadn't seen the video.

I have redacted my comments.

Video: http://www.alternet.org/civil-liber...4-minutes-deliver-first-aid-12-year-old-tamir

 

[OC for ME]

The kid started to pull the gun from his waist band. You can see it on the video.

Should the cop have waited till the kid drew, pointed, fired, then called you down to scene to ask permission to return fire? Then you could investigate it find out it was a kid and say "its ok hea only 12 he gets a free pass for this".

I noticed you nor anyone else has answered the question posed. Just thrown crap back

And the responding cop was told:

On Saturday, a person had called 911 about a male pointing a gun at others at the park. The caller told the 911 dispatcher that the gun was “probably fake,” then added, “I don’t know if it’s real or not.”

Why do not some cops use their own eyes to evaluate the situation evident before them? If there is any doubt presented to the responding cop(s) before they arrive on the scene then a elevated risk must be accepted. Unfortunately you and many in LE do not hold this view.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Damn....just seen the video.

I have always said I'd never believe anything a cop says or writes in a report after an incident. I gave the police the benefit of the doubt and almost sided with them on this.

My bad. They murdered a kid.